Chord Construction Question

[Ziggy]

Hey all,

 

I have a pretty basic question concerning the elements of a chord. I'm working on a Freddie Green style vamp located at the following link; http://www.freddiegreen.org/style/techniqu/fblues.html. In the fourth bar, they denote an F7 chord composed of the notes C-A-E. My limited knowledge in theory tells me these are the 5th, 3rd and 7th notes of the F scale. I guess I'm a bit puzzled because the root is missing from the chord.

 

Is it correct to form a chord in this manner or is this a misprint?

 

Also, if it is correct, it seems that this could be called a C6 chord. Is it called an F7 because of the key we're in and the other voicings surrounding it?

[henryrobinett]

Well you're right. It could be a C6. From what you say it'd definitely a misprint. F7 has a flatted 7th. A-C-E spells a FMajor7th chord without root. But those notes more directly spell an A minor triad. "A" minor can form a portion of or be a substitute for FMaj7 or C6 or D9, Gbm7b5, Gsus13, Ab7b9. It goes on. Sorry.

[DeluxeReverb]

If you are refering to the "12-bar Blues in F" lesson, I think the transcriber missed two accidentals: both the F7 and the following F7b5 would need Eb notes instead of E for them to be dominant 7th chords.

 

I seriously doubt the author meant to label the written Fmaj7 and Fmaj7b5 as dominant chords. Play the voicing as C-A-Eb (lowest to highest),the 5/3/b7 tones and drop the C to Bb for the b5 chord.

[Ziggy]

Thanks Henry and Deluxe. I appreciate the feedback. I'll try the chords with the E-b.

 

I guess this answers my other question concerning forming a chord without the root. That seems a bit counter intuitive to me. Is this something you can do in a substitution situation?

[DeluxeReverb]

In the style that Green played, the root is usuallly the bassist's responsibility. He also had Count Basie on keys and a well-voiced brass and reed section. That allowed him some freedom to play inversions and passing chords that helped the tune swing instead of staying on the root allk of the time.

 

In other styles where the Green approach works well (Rockabilly, Western Swing, Jump Blues, etc.) the bass player should be hitting the root fairly often, so giving the tune a lift be moving inversions around in a "boring" I-V-IV sounds great on guitar. Have fun with the style,it's certainly an eye opener.

 

BTW, there's a pretty good book by Charlton Johnston (I think) covering the concepts with a CD included....you might check it out. Also, listening to any Bob Wills band tunes can give you some ideas on applying Green to Western Swing.

 

Freddie Green also did a record with Herb Ellis called "Rhythm Willie" where you can hear his parts a little better than on some of the more lo-fi Basie cuts.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by DeluxeReverb:

Freddie Green also did a record with Herb Ellis called "Rhythm Willie" where you can hear his parts a little better than on some of the more lo-fi Basie cuts.

Cool. I didn't know that. I'll give it a look-see.

 

It became a pretty standard habit to eliminate the root in a lot of chords for the very reasons you stated. Pianists started doing this too, especially after Bill Evans, for the same reason. The root is the bassists domain.

[Ziggy]

Deluxe,

 

Thanks a lot for the insight. This has definitely provided me with a conceptual leap in the area of comping!

 

Zig

[DeluxeReverb]

Ziggy-

 

You're certainly welcome.

 

Not to belabor the point, but there is an Acoustic Guitar magazine from a few years back that had a cover feature on Swing. I think David Hamburger did an article or two on the Green style. The cover has a photo of an archtop acoustic and reads "Swing!". You might find it it a used book or record store or on e-bay...

 

Also check Joey Goldstein's FREE Jazz Guitar Method book on line. Lots of great info there: Joe\'s Guitar Method

[synthetic]

It looks correct to me, the Eb carries over from the first chord in the bar. When I was taking Jazz lessons, I was taught that the only notes you need to hit in the chord are the 3rd and 7th. The root is played by the bass, and the 5th is superfluous. -jl

[Rim]

I agree with synthetic. On the first chord of the fourth bar, the E is flatted. An accidental that is not explicit in the key is carried over to the end of the measure. Since the E was flatted in the first beat, the E is flat for the whole fourth measure.

 

As far as naming, I think it was easier to name it F7 since it's in the key of F. I guess the author could've named it Cm6 or Am-5 but F7 is a more common chord for that key.

[henryrobinett]

I didn't look at the page. I think it's moved anyway, but F7 DOESN'T belong to the key of "F". It belongs to the key of Bb. F7 spells an F Dominant chords which is F-A-C-Eb. I'm sorry if this is out of context since I can't see what you're talking about. I can't tell what tune it is.

[DeluxeReverb]

Doh! Sorry, Ziggy, I didn't pay enough attention to the printed music. The previous guys are correct, the E remains flatted for the rest of the bar, making the written notes correct with the chord names. My error...

[Ziggy]

Yeah, I just noticed that too now that it has been pointed out. I guess I was so focused on the individual chords that I missed the first e-flat in that measure. I kept thinking to myself "man, this doesn't sound too good." Now it sounds much better. Thanks again to all for your input on this. I'm really picking up a lot of info on this site.

[SoundWrangler]

F7 DOESN'T belong to the key of "F". It belongs to the key of Bb. F7 spells an F Dominant chords which is F-A-C-Eb.

(Not to split hairs here, but) Henry R., but you bring up a common misconception: a Key Signature (a notational convention, in our "western" system of writing) is not the same thing as the "Key" a piece of music is in (its tonal center of gravity). Yes, if we were to take the traditional major scale (ionan mode) as our reference, you might say that one flat "goes with" the key of F major, no? But of course, it also goes with D minor, right?

Here's the thing: the "Key" of a piece of music refers to its tonal center (either overall, a specific section, and/or where it generally --or finally-- resolves to).

So your basic 12-bar blues in F begins, ends & always gravitates to F7 (with that Eb you're talking about, right there in the "tonic" chord). The fact that the "home" scale of that tonic is an F mixolydian, with two flats (Bb & Eb) does NOT mean that a blues in F is really in the "key" of Bb - no way!

Put another way, if F is home base (OK, usually gonna have a perfect 5th in there, to really feel like it's "in" that key), it doesn't matter what kind of crazy chord/scale is associated with the "tonic" chord --say, for example F G A Bb C Db Eb - a pretty good scale for playing "If I Were a Rich Man" -- it's definitely in the key of F.

[henryrobinett]

OK, I was going to say unless this is a blues, because blues has a separate set of rules. As I said I couldn't see the tune in question. However it may still be argued, I think, that an F Blues is still the TONIC F and F7 becomes a secondary, V of IV. That's why a lot of blues start out with the major and then transition to the Dominant version in the second bar. It also depends on what type of blues you're playing. There are many jazz Blues tunes that actually have the TONIC as a major chord with a Major 7th. The flatted 7th becomes a Blue note, along with the flat 3rd, sharp 4. That's why the major 7th in that Dominant SOUND is such a killer, blue sound sometimes.

 

BUT I didn't realize that the tune was a BLUES in F. All I got as reference was an F7 with an E natural as the 7th.

[pauldil]

Henry, here are the beginning chords from the site:

 

|Fmaj7 F#dim7 | Gm7 G#dim7 | Am7 Am6 F Bdim7 |

 

Cm7 Gb7 F7 F7b5 | Bbmaj7 Bb7 Bb6 | ...

 

For some reason, the direct link doesn't work. You can see the actual page by going to http://www.freddiegreen.org , selecting "Lessons and Technique" from the bar on the left, and scrolling down to the "12 Bar Blues in the Key of F" from the list.

 

Paul

[SoundWrangler]

BUT I didn't realize that the tune was a BLUES in F. All I got as reference was an F7 with an E natural as the 7th.

Right. Of course, if you've ever tried to play blues with a classically-trained musician, they just MIGHT float a couple of those E natural air biscuits one top of your F7 chord!

[henryrobinett]

Pauldil, Thanks for posting the changes. Yes I can see plainly now it is the key of F. And see, I was right, the Tonic is "F" Major, with a major 7th that later becomes F7 (Eb), a "secondary" Dominant.

[jlh]

Hey Henry, I enjoy and usually follow your expositions on theory, especially those with Ted.

I know just enough theory to be dangerous, but not enough to be deadly .

Would you please be kind enough to explain the term secondary you use above. I have trouble understanding the use of dominant chords in blues because it is like the tonal center changes each with each chord. That is it never seems to rest, each chord (even the tonic) wants to resolve.

Thanks,

JLH

[henryrobinett]

JLH,

 

Best way I can 'splain it easily, I think is this way. There is only ONE dominant chord per key. That's the 5 chord. Most times we write the 5 chord using Roman numerals like "V" chord. The dominant has a very unique and specific function. It wants to go to the Tonic which is the "I" chord. In the key of C the I chord is C. In the key of Eb the I chord is Eb. Classic turn around goes to the V chord so IT can take you HOME to the Tonic or I. So it's movement is a fourth up, meaning 4 scale steps, or a fifth down, or 5 scale steps.

 

Now that's fine and dandy but very often in a song there are other chords that LOOK and SOUND like a dominant chord but in truth they are only posers. They have a little dominant function. It's a "V" chord going to something else in the key. This is a SECONDARY DOMINANT. You can say this chord is a V OF whatever chord it's being a five of. In the key of C you can have a sequence like D7 - G7 - C. D is really the ii chord but the ii chord is minor. What's up with that? D7 looks and sounds like a dominant chord but it is a V of V. It's acting like the V of the V chord, G7. G7 is the V of I, the way it's suppose to be.

 

You can have a bunch of secondary dominants in a tune. Doesn't matter whether there are 12 different secondary dominants or not. There is no tertiary dominant. They are all SECONDARY Dominants.

 

Key of G. G is the Tonic (I) and D7 (V) is the Dominant.

 

Example progression: G - C - B7 - E7 - A7 - D7 - G. B7 is the V of VI (E). E7 is the V of II (A). A7 is now the V of V (D). And finally D7 is the V of I (G).

 

HTH. This can get thick but it's as simple as pie, really. If it seems thick pick up your guitar or whatever instrument you're most familiar with and make examples. The only way this stuff has relevance is to see it on your instrument, not have a bunch of junk cluttering up your head.

[jlh]

Thanks Henry,

I've never heard the term secondary dominant, but what you say makes sense. I can't wait to get home and explore it a bit on the guitar. I'm not one of those really talented creative types, so theory makes it much easier for me to get the sounds I want without endless (and too often pointless) experimentation. Each new little tidbit helps.

JLH

[Rim]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

I didn't look at the page. I think it's moved anyway, but F7 DOESN'T belong to the key of "F". It belongs to the key of Bb. F7 spells an F Dominant chords which is F-A-C-Eb. I'm sorry if this is out of context since I can't see what you're talking about. I can't tell what tune it is.

I guess I wasn't quite clear. When I said "it's in the key of F" the "it" I was referring to was the whole piece, not the F7 chord. Of course F7 doesn't belong in the key of F naturally, otherwise the accidental flat of E would not have been necessary! SoundWrangler also had a good example in blues.

 

Anyway, sorry for the confusion.