tube amp or digital amp?

[labcyclone]

Iam a beginner and Iam going to purchase a Gibson Les Paul Studio Plus.

I have read in several magazines that the only way to get the warm tone and sustain of classic rock you must have a tube type amp.

I have also read that tube amps can be troublesome.

So I need some opinions from players who have experience with both type of amps.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

[Gabriel E.]

Get a tube amp. Sure they're heavy and they can be unreliable (they're also easier to fix), but they sound better than transistor amps and WAY better than digital amps. They have a really 3-dimensional sound and they react very dynamically to your playing.

 

While new tube amps can cost as much as $4000, good ones can be had for less than $400.

 

If you want to do your Les Paul justice, go tube.

[TurboDog]

I'm guessing price isn't too much of an object here since the guitar you're getting isn't exactly a cheapo. Not many people begin with a LP Studio.

 

Depending on your budget, there are a world of choices with amps. Most players will recommend tube amps, as will I. I have yet to hear a solid state amp that sounds as "warm" or has as much character as a decent tube amp. SS amps, to me, lack any character and are too clean.

 

For $500-$1000, you can get a pro-quality used tube amp. From Marshalls to Fenders to Mesa-Boogies to Riveras.

 

So how much do you want to spend and what type of music do you plan on playing most?

[Wickerman]

I'd suggest looking into a new Carvin or a used Rivera. They both make great amps and can be found for $500-$1000. The Carvin Pro Tube series are REAL nice, the Vintage (tweed) are also quite nice. The used Riveras I've seen are really great but few of them have good sounding reverb. Everything else is just amazing about 'em though...

[Gabriel E.]

The Carvin MTS I tried smoked both the BelAir and the Legacy. Great amp.

[daddyelmis]

I've played electric and acoustic guitar for over 30 years, and I've played through solid state and tube. You just can't be the sound of warmed up tubes. As noted in other responses, a tube driven amp has dynamics that respond to your playing style. And, experimenting with the wide variety of aftermarket tubes for pre- and power amp tubes gives you the opportunity to customize your sound.

 

Tube amps can be delicate, however. Those little glass tubes can fail when the amp is overly rattled, dropped or otherwise abused, so take care (and carry spare tubes in your gig bag).

 

Having said that, you can get pretty decent tone from a good solid state amp with a good tube preamp on the front end (either rack mounted like the Marshall JMP, Digitech 2101/2112, or stompbox style). Solid state amps are much less sensitive to rough treatment, and are cheaper.

 

One thing I always recommend, and that is look at where you're going to be playing most. If it's in the basement or bedroom, a 100 watt Marshall stack is not going to be useful unless you live 20 miles from anybody else. To get the really good tone, you need to crank the power amp side of the amp, which means max volume. I'd look into the constantly growing world of lower powered tube amps in the 15 to 30 watt range. More affordable by a long shot, and unless you are literally playing a 500 seat club, these are plenty loud (you WILL piss off your neighbors with a 30 watt amp cranked to 8-10). I, personally, have never witnessed a 100 watt Marshall pushed past 5 on power amp side--it's just too freakin' loud for most stage work. Whereas the tone of a fully cranked 15 or 20 watt tube amp is glorious and can be had anywhere.

 

Right now I'm playing through a Marshall DSL201, which is an all-tube 20 watt 1x12 combo, and it rocks. For gigs, I mic it through the board. I've got a Digitech 2101 on the front end for add'l tube preamp distortion and digital effects.

 

Good luck. Check eBay and musicians friend (www.musiciansfriend.com)

[Gabriel E.]

Good point. There's really no reason, other than ego, to use anything more than 50 watts these days.

 

Tube amps sound best cranked up. You can more realistically crank a smaller amp.

[steve f]

I'll second the comments about Rivera. You should be able to find a used one at a reasonable price. One thing about Rivera is they're very well built (like the proverbial tank). Note, 'reasonable price' doesn't necessarily mean really cheap, but for the quality vs price they can't be beat.

[DanielT]

I would like to weigh in on the digital side of the

argument, not because I think they sound better, but because I believe that the reliability factor is crucial to picking an amp. Also, in my experience with tube amps, I've noticed that temperature, humidity levels, and who knows what else will affect the tone and temperment of the amp. Another advantage to a good digital amp or pre-amp (I use a Yamaha DG Stomp pedal) is the versatility of sound that is available at any volume. This is especially important if you want to cover tunes or play more than one or two styles of music. I have to admit though, that if I was trying to develope a signature

sound in a controlled environment, like a recording studio, I'd want a tube amp too.

 

The other guitar player in the band that I'm in uses a Marshall TSL 60 half stack and I use the DG Stomp through a s.s. power amp and a 4-12 cab. He has to reconfigure his e.q. and volume settings for every venue and the struggles are many, but I can just plug it in and play.

[JimK]

Digital....maybe.

 

You didn't say what type of music you plan on playing (although you did mention classic rock) and you didn't say what you intend to do with the amp. Seeing as this is your first amp, there's a WHOLE LOT of sounds out there to be explored. Some amps sound one way, some another. If you don't know what you want for a sound, then a digital modelling amp (or an amp modeller) will give you lots of options. Some of the modelling stuff is quite good. As good as the real thing? No (at least not yet). But, instead of spending tens of thousands of $$ in search of "your" sound, this is a cheap way to try out a lot of stuff. In a few years you may settle on a type of sound and then buy the real thing.

 

Otherwise, the amps already mentioned are great amps, and tubes do sound the best. So, in the spirit of offering a suggestion, I second the Marshall JCM 2000 DSL (201 or 401). They are great amps.

[Sylver]

If you're a beginner and spending nearly $2 k on a guitar, maybe you should look into a Diesel Amp. Hand made in Germany (they'll customize), 4 Channels, lots of power, gain, etc. And they only run about $4200!

[DC]

Tube amps not reliable?! Don't tell me and my Mesa Boogie's that. 99 times out of 100 any tube amp problem can be solved with a new tube. I've flown Mesa's all over the globe in all sorts of temp and humidity extremes and I've replaced a couple of tubes (non scheduled maintanence) over almost 20 years.

 

So of course my recomendation is MESA MESA MESA!

[Tedly Nightshade]

To quote an old timer "Tubes been on the road for forty years."

If military spec isn't reliable enough, I don't know what to say.

 

To really be able to take advantage of a digital amp, you must have experience playing amps of the type that are being simulated: tube amps!

There are lots and lots of really shoddy tube amps these days. Guitar amps are a sucker market, for the most part.

Not that there are not fine amps available, but with few exceptions they are expensive or old. Of course you can spend a mint on a shoddy but fancy new amp too.

Old tube amp may be where the reliability concerns come in. Mostly these are better built than the new ones, but if they've been only sporadically maintained, they're not operating as designed any more. A lot of maintenance is not required, but over twenty years and more some is called for. A really good amp tech (another rare creature) is invaluable.

I recently bought a couple vintage Ampegs off Ebay. One was "as is" one advertised as in good working order, and someone was gigging with it, with a lot invested in their music and quite serious about it.

Both needed two or three hundred dollars worth of work, almost all of which was materials, some fairly hard to come by.

Now both are fully ready for another 20 years on the road, for $600 apiece. Compare to the new "ampegs". No I'm not saving much money, but that wasn't the point- the point was to have reliable amps, and these will outlast the new ones I'm sure.

 

You should not deprive yourself of the experience of playing extensively through a well-made tube amp (that rules out most of them right away). Real musical instruments cost real money. Not all amps are real musical intruments, in the way that good guitars can be. Guitars and amps are kind of a debased hobby market by and large. There's good stuff, but not at the guitar center. With very very few exceptions.

You should also not deprive yourself of the experience of playing a tube amp with the power amp gain absolutely floored. It's easy to have a Marshall stack, or even a 30 watt combo, and remain deprived of this experience, because the things are so ungodly loud that to crank them and stand back far enough to hear the whole picture usually requires unusual outdoor circumstances, or becoming as deaf as a post.

 

There are a few amps out there these days with very small power amps. This is a tremendous blessing. A wonderful development indeed. Other than the Fender Champ of yore, a 3 watt beastie with a undersized speaker (plug it into something else and crank it), not a lot has existed in this are, but now they're turning up.

I do enjoy my Gibson Goldtone (other than the solid state but spring reverb), but switched to 6 watts, it's still too loud to really crank most of the time. Still the 15 watt setting is required for a healthy volume on clean sounds.

 

I've seen a few others that are even less watts: One was switchable between 1 and 2 watts! If you like full throttle sounds, you could get these at truly listenable volumes. So much better ( if you like that sort of thing, i know I do) to have the amp cranked absolutely all the way out, and the pickups jacked up on the Les Paul. (Seriously consider buying an old one in new condition! Scratches sound fine!)

These also tend to be very simple Class A circuits, which are a tremendously good thing.

With the Goldtone, just a few notches to loud (instead of WAY too loud) I can go from clean and shimmery to full grain sustain just by picking differently. Everywhere in between is desireable, but not so on many amps.

 

This is a matter of culture- You will see how it's been done all along. You will be part of the continuum of history. If you want to study classic rock, hopefully the album cuts and not the interminable repetition on the radio, you will do well to come from where those guys came from. Check out the music they were ripping off and worshipping (real similar activities). Culture.

 

Ted

[Rim]

If I had my druthers (actually, if I had the money ), I'd get a Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier. I agree that tubes is the way to go. A classic setup is a LP into a Marshall amp.

 

On the other hand, I currently own an ADA Viper amp. It is one of those hybrid amps where the preamp is tube and the power amp is solid state. For me, it's a happy medium. It's not perfect, but it's holding me for now.

[TurboDog]

I'm not sure if I totally agree with Ted.

 

I think most tubes amps on the market can get a very decent tone. What's the cheapest tube amps out there? Crate? Peavey? I've heard players get the most out of some pretty cheap Crates and Peaveys.

 

I've also never agreed that you have to dime the power amp section to get great tone. There are a number of amps designed today to get nice gain in the preamp. A combination of preamp and power amp volume works best for these.

 

It's never easy to recommend amps without knowing what styles of music they will be used for.

 

Although I preach about tube amps, I think a modeling amp may be the way to go with a beginner. You get all the various effects, and get the approximate tone of several amp types. After fiddling with a mdoleing amp for a while, you will discover the tones you like best, and can then go for the real deal.

[baronedo]

Check out this write-up from the Guitarnuts website at www.guitarnuts.com/amps/myths.html.

 

This debunks some unfounded myths about amps, including their "true power" and also has a section on tube vs. solid state amps.

 

I've heard the pros and cons on tubes vs. solid state. Technology is getting very close with respect to getting the creamy overdriven power tube sound from "solid state" amps. The Vox Valetronix amps are very close - they use two preamp tubes but get them to behave like power amp tubes.

 

One thing to clarify is that many modern solid state amps are not purely solid state in that they have preamp tubes to help warm the tone. Also, many modern "tube" amps also have solid state components (e.g. printed circuits, etc.). The nirvana that amp manufacturers are working on is getting Power Tube saturation tone in a "solidstate" amp - which by the way, requires you to crank a tube amp (do you play with your amp cranked up??).

 

I am personally going to wait a little before buying my next amp as I know that better things will be out that could fool even the most die-hard tube amp users in a "blind" test.

[Wickerman]

Originally posted by TurboDog:

I'm not sure if I totally agree with Ted.

 

I think most tubes amps on the market can get a very decent tone. What's the cheapest tube amps out there? Crate? Peavey? I've heard players get the most out of some pretty cheap Crates and Peaveys.

 

I've also never agreed that you have to dime the power amp section to get great tone. There are a number of amps designed today to get nice gain in the preamp. A combination of preamp and power amp volume works best for these.

 

It's never easy to recommend amps without knowing what styles of music they will be used for.

 

Although I preach about tube amps, I think a modeling amp may be the way to go with a beginner. You get all the various effects, and get the approximate tone of several amp types. After fiddling with a mdoleing amp for a while, you will discover the tones you like best, and can then go for the real deal.

Crate? Not really. The Vintage Club and Blue Voodoo series are decent enough but Peavey and Carvin both make MUCH better amps for less money.

 

The Blue Voodoo head with cab is just over $1100. About $700 for the head and $400 for one 4x12 cab. Carvin makes three amps that are better for less. First, their pride and joy, Steve Vai's Carvin Legacy head/cab. 100 watt (4 EL34s), Spring Reverb, Separate EQ fro each channel, Bias switch for 5881, 6L6s or EL34s. $970 for a Celestion Vintage 30s loaded 2x12 combo. $1200 for a half stack.

 

Then, the Carvin Master Tube Series. 100 watt, 50/100 watt output switch, Bias switch for your choice of 5881, 6L6s or EL34 power tubes (comes with 5881) Spring Reverb. $700 for a 2x12 combo $900 for 4x12 half stack.

 

Last Carvin, Vintage series Bel Air 2x12. 50 watt, EL84, spring reverb, separate EQ on each channel, two Celestion GT12s... $550.

 

Then, Peavey, you can find a used Classic 50 4x10 or Classic 30 for around $500. Great all tube amps, way less than either Crate Blue Voodoos or Vintage Clubs.

 

If you're looking for a cheap but well made, good sounding tube amp, in my opinion, Carvin and Peavey are the only two manufactures I'd look at. Or Rivera if you could find a good deal on a used one.

[TurboDog]

Sheesh, Wicker, I was trying to make a point there. I was just pointing out that you can get some nice tones from cheap tube amps. In fact, with a speaker and tube change, it's possible to get a decent tone from just about any tube amp.

 

I, too, prefer the Peaveys to the Crates. I've never played thru a Carvin, so I can't say there.

 

When we know what style this guy likes, we can better offer suggestions. We wont suggest a Bel Air if he's into nu metal (Let's hope he's not).

 

If I were just starting out, I still think I'd try a good modeling amp and get comfortable with all the different effects and amp types.

[lrbreez]

The best way to get an amp is to start out with finding out what you favorite player(s) use. For example, if you love Duane Allman's aound then get a Marshall 50-watt Plexi reissue (or a early 70's 50-watt MarkII). If you are not sure then get a Vox Valvetronics. When you find a digital model that you really like then get that amp. The Vox aill make a great second amp (you'll probaly find yourself still using the Vox about half the time).

Buddy

[Christopher]

Digital (ie. class D) amps are a good way of getting a *lot* of power from a very small, lightweight package. If you're sick of lugging around heavy all-tube heads, they're worth a look.

 

A lot of them put out 1000+ watts and fit in a single rack space.

[myles_rose]

To learn a little about the differences between tube and transistor amps, take a look on my website, as there is a nice link, or you can get there directly from here ....

 

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/select/0898/tube.html

 

As far as the weight and reliability issue ... I have a Fender Deluxe Reverb that I bought in the 10th grade ( I am now 52, so do the math )

 

The Fender amp is light and portable. It has also never had a problem since it was purchased new. In the 11th grade, I bought (after working all summer again) a Marshall JTM-45 half stack. It has gone through a few tube changes over the years, but also is still working just fine.

 

Regards,

[d_denys]

For somebody that is just starting out, I would suggest a good small tube amp. I currently own a vintage blackface Concert amp by Fender (early 60's) and a Peavey Classic 30 and altought the peavey has less power than the Fender, it is loud enough to do gigs and bother my neibourgs. Remember that a tube amp sounds better wen it's crank up at 11!!! so to much power is not always a good option. So, you should go and try one of these baby, it rocks and it's pretty cheap, in fact I think it's the cheapest 30 watts tube amp on the market...