Ignorance is bliss....

[fantasticsound]

The cliche tone thread got me thinking again... Why do we propagate ignorance so readily? Specifically, I'm describing the inappropriate use of words in our langauge.

 

In music, a tone is a note. As in, "E is a whole tone above D.

 

Yet we've allowed it's misuse to describe eq controls as, "tone controls," which is completely wrong. As I pointed out in the other thread, a tone control would vary frequency, not amplitude of certain frequencies. That means a real, "tone control," is actually a pitch shifter.

 

This also indicates the use of tone as a description of an instrument's sound is also wrong. The correct term for both situations is timbre. Timbre describes the frequency content of a sound and the specific amplitude relationships of those frequencies. A, "tone control," should be called a timbre control.

 

Similarly, we use the word tremelo bar to describe the frequency varying mechanical device on some guitars. How many are aware that tremelo describes a regular variation in volume? Vibrato is a regular variation of frequency. Those are Vibrato bars, not Tremelo bars. Of course you could go completely slang and call 'em Whammy bars. That would actually be better. Less confusion because we all know it's a made up term.

 

If I'm not mistaken, Leo Fender erroneously marked his amps with the term vibrato when he meant tremelo. Now how screwed is that?

 

How many other terms are commonly thrown out with little or no care as to their proper use? And we have the gall to tell kids to stay in school? For what? No one pays attention to the rules of langauge anyway.

 

Oh, well. I supposed from the beginning that the whole arguement was an exercise in futility, but thought it should be said, none the less.

 

I'm spent.

 

Feel free to turn on the flames or ignore this thread!

[Diddleydaddy]

Thank you Fantastic sound. I think it is important to remind ourselves about these details, so that we can be percieved as professionals, and show that we take pride in what we do. It is good to be correct.

[LiveMusic]

Welcom home, oh, eloquent one! Yep, you're right. Good post.

[dlb]

Well...not to disagree but, MS word offers the word "tone" as a synonym to "timbre".

We often refer to "feel" as style, "tight" as well orchestrated, and so forth. Is the conveyance as important as the message?

 

I think I'll go and pursue a small section of vagina.

[Sylver]

Hey, does anyone known the rest of the "Ignorance is bliss ..." quote? Most people known the beginning, but not a lot of people know the rest of it.

[videoeditor1]

From Dictionary.com

 

tone

Music.

A sound of distinct pitch, quality, and duration; a note.

The interval of a major second in the diatonic scale; a whole step.

A recitational melody in a Gregorian chant.

 

The quality or character of sound.

The characteristic quality or timbre of a particular instrument or voice.

 

The pitch of a word used to determine its meaning or to distinguish differences in meaning.

The particular or relative pitch of a word, phrase, or sentence.

Manner of expression in speech or writing: took an angry tone with the reporters.

A general quality, effect, or atmosphere: a room with an elegant tone.

 

A color or shade of color: light tones of blue.

Quality of color: The green wallpaper had a particularly somber tone.

The general effect in painting of light, color, and shade.

 

Physiology.

The normal state of elastic tension or partial contraction in resting muscles.

Normal firmness of a tissue or an organ.

-----------------------------------

 

To make your speculation accurate, we would have to severely constrain the meaning of the word "tone" (as you have incorrectly done ).

 

In a cool tone,

NYC Drew

[Nollykin]

hehe - good points all..

 

I'm afraid the english language is like that - it slips out. I mean - remember romeo and juliet? If you went up to someone down the street now and greeted them with

 

"Greetings, fair friend. How fare thee?" Then you'd be greeted with a weird look.

 

Language evolves as do us human beings. Live life, play the music, and be one with it - thats what I say.

 

Nolly

[pauldil]

I thought that timbre was what you yell when a tree is about to fall

[Virtual Jim]

Music--popular music especially--is full of dumb uses of words. For example, are there any universally accepted definitions for the following words as applied to music?

 

- Good

- Bad

- Warm

- Punchy

- Muddy

- Soft

 

Or that "lyrics to a song" is actually a misuse as lyric is a singular word unless one is talking about the words to a group of songs...

 

Of course, in the end, does any of this matter?

[fantasticsound]

dlb and DC Jim have touched on the point of my rant.

 

I had a teacher at Columbia College who urged us to use accurate, descriptive terms when working as sound engineers or mixers. He then pointed out the ridiculous, non-communication that passes for description of sound by producers, musicians, and many engineers, and the necessity of working within the cacaphony and unclear speech. In the real world, you just can't tell Mr. Producer he's describing sound all wrong. It'll probably be your last paying gig. On the other hand, you don't have to play that game with other professionals, who know better.

 

All the subjective terms mentioned have slightly or vastly different meanings depending on whom you're speaking to. It's sad we need to take notes regarding what, "green" means to x producer because y musician will ask for "green" and mean something entirely different. Sad because both could learn to describe sound in precise terms of frequency and amplitude and more easily get what they desire. Try listening to the beginning of Steve Vai's, Greasy Kid's Stuff. He included the slate from the 2 track master. The description includes amplitude settings for various bands on a Pultec EQ. Not, "I added a little more bass." He says, "3 db up on..." No question what he means, and it's concise.

 

My problem with your definition, Eric, is that the additional meanings have been included in the dictionary because of the misuse of the word. Not the other way around.

 

Also, in visual description, tone, describing differing color, is just that. different colors. Add some magenta to a blue and you change the color (tone). Add high frequency amplitude to a middle C note on a piano and it's timbre changes, but the note (and hence the tone) hasn't changed a bit. Blue is not blue is not blue (Where one is Royal, one is Sky, and one is Periwinkle), but Middle C is ALWAYS middle C no matter how much you crank an EQ filter.

 

Does this clarify my point well, or will someone pick me apart like those victims in Hitchcock's, "The Birds"?

[stanner]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

[QB...]

 

My problem with your definition, Eric, is that the additional meanings have been included in the dictionary because of the misuse of the word. Not the other way around.

 

Also, in visual description, tone, describing differing color, is just that. different colors. Add some magenta to a blue and you change the color (tone). Add high frequency amplitude to a middle C note on a piano and it's timbre changes, but the note (and hence the tone) hasn't changed a bit. Blue is not blue is not blue (Where one is Royal, one is Sky, and one is Periwinkle), but Middle C is ALWAYS middle C no matter how much you crank an EQ filter.

 

Does this clarify my point well, or will someone pick me apart like those victims in Hitchcock's, "The Birds"? [/QB]

oh my god!!!...check please!

in the immortal words of the :

"listen to the music"!!

there used to be a guy like you on 'snl',he used to fold things up and clean things until they were just so...

so leo fender changed a coupla terms around-get over it.these things are called 'work arounds'

eventually ya gotta move on...

somehow i feel this is a "web only" debate that wouldnt see the light of day under the regular workaday music world.imho

 

[fantasticsound]

Stanner - I have no problem working in this world, because I must. That doens't mean I should accept ignorance and support it.

 

The problem with your indifference is that use a term incorrectly, and you fail to communicate. Because of that failure (in the case of Leo's reversal) you'll get something entirely different than you intended.

 

How much little annoyance or major grief could be eradicated by a little bit of education?

 

It's as simple as that.

[henryrobinett]

Me thinks you're applying a partial or incomplete definition of the word TONE. In my American Heritage sense 2.b says, "The characteristic quality or timbre of a particular instrument or voice". Sense 6 states, "A general quality, effect or atmosphere". It also means "To give a particular tone or inflection to" and "To soften or change the color of, as in a photographic negative". So all of the above can be applied to the way in which we commonly use the term "tone" to change the timbre, color or quality of sound. It's derivation stems from the Greek "tonos" which means a "stretching, tone, sound".

 

As we all know words, at least in the English language, have many definitions, even if they share a common root.

[Jedi]

Originally posted by Fantasticsound

My problem with your definition, Eric, is that the additional meanings have been included in the dictionary because of the misuse of the word. Not the other way around.

Language changes, my brother. The term is relative to the conventional agreement of society. The dictionary is the benchmark we use when words and standards change. This is why the dictionary keeps being updated, because language or atleast the english language changes. Therefore, to say that the word is being misused is inaccurate. The word is not rigidly resigned to that definition. The dictionary has supported the conventional agreement that many of us support concerning the usage of the word. The word and its meaning has changed. What the hell am I talking about?LOL.

 

Jedi

[henryrobinett]

Plus the term TONE your describing, as I showed earlier, is not even the original definition of the term. Language DOES change. Root words are always root words and extrapolate and aberrate from there on. Tone didn't become "pitch" until much later. Even so it traversed through from Greek to "Tonus" into Latin to Old French to "ton" in Middle English. It's traveled far and picked up a lot of subtleties along the way.

[TurboDog]

Let em jump in here, as I graduated with a degree in Communication Arts.

 

First of all, we never "stop communicating." Everything is a communication, be it a word, a sound, body language, a visual, etc. If your wife stops talking to you, she's communcating something...probably that she's pissed. There is always a type of communcation going on.

 

"Tone" is a commonly used term among guitarist/musicians to describe the overall character of the sound they produce. Why waste time picking over it's many definitions to point out to people how they are using the work incorrectly? You know what they mean, I know what they mean, let's move on.

 

Good day

[DC]

I always thought of tone in reference to color. Different shades, hue's, tones...

 

Then you apply that to music.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by TurboDog:

"Tone" is a commonly used term among guitarist/musicians to describe the overall character of the sound they produce. Why waste time picking over it's many definitions to point out to people how they are using the work incorrectly? You know what they mean, I know what they mean, let's move on.

 

Good day

Well this issue is people are NOT using the term incorrectly. The word Tone to describe shading, timbre, color, quality is entirely correct.

[timrocker]

Good thread/point, Neil. Here's the one I often notice "out there". "Bass Guitar". It isn't. A bass is a bass and a guitar is a guitar. The modern electric bass is the descendant of the upright bass. Not a form of guitar at all. Word.

[TurboDog]

I KNOW people aren't using the term incorrectly. I was just asking why waste time with the whole deal.

 

And, for the record, a word's meaning is largely gained from the context it's used in. We all use words with different intentions than the dictionary's definition. Semantics.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by TurboDog:

And, for the record, a word's meaning is largely gained from the context it's used in. We all use words with different intentions than the dictionary's definition. Semantics.

Correct. I'd only add that dictionaries are simply a lexicon of words; their history, meaning and usage. So as words change in meaning they are collected and registered in dictionaries for reference. I love dictionaries. Most people don't take the time to discover what the words they use every day actually mean or where they come from. This misunderstanding actually causes more confusion than can be imagined. Especially in the subject of communication. In communcating with someone I must assume that the person knows what the words he/she is using means. This is not always the case, of course. This is more often than not where confusion comes from IMHO. The un-understanding of words.

 

BTW I've yet to find a dictionary that doesn't have all the definitions in common usage, colloquial, specialized, except not up to date or slang dictionaries.

[Sylver]

Originally posted by timrocker:

Good thread/point, Neil. Here's the one I often notice "out there". "Bass Guitar". It isn't. A bass is a bass and a guitar is a guitar. The modern electric bass is the descendant of the upright bass. Not a form of guitar at all. Word.

Not to bust your stones, but ... I completely disagree that the modern electric bass is a descendent of the double bass. The Double bass is a member of the viol family, popular in the 15th-17th centuries, the double bass viol being the only surviving member of that instrument family. The viols were tuned in 4th and 3rds, which diferenciates them from the violin family, which are tuned in 5ths. Getting back to the bass guitar ... while it was created to "emulate" the double bass, which was having a hard time being heard over the increasingly more powerful guitar amplifiers, it really is a guitar. It has frets, and was never meant to be bowed. It's only plucked and picked, just like the guitar. The electric bass guitar also shares the fretboard shape of the guitar, and their earlier predicessor, the lute. The radius of the bass guitar is based(no pun) on the radius of the guitar fretboard. If you look at the fingerboard radius of a doublebass, it is much more similar to a violin, very rounded. As a matter of fact, the radius of the guitar and bass guitar fretboards make them nearly impossible to bow(Yeah, yeah, I saw "The song remains the same", but you don't think JP was doing any real playing with that bow, do ya?). The fact that the doublebass tuning was the same as the guitar's lowest 4 strings was an added plus, which is why in the pre amplifier days it was such a nice compliment to guitar music. The bass guitar is a guitar. The double bass is a viol.

 

So there!

 

OK, I guess I did bust your stones.

[Sylver]

As an aside, I came across this interesting little tidbit:

 

The viola d'amore,a member of the viol family, originated in the 17th cent. and was especially popular in the 18th cent. It has from five to seven strings, tuned in thirds and fourths, and an equal number of sympathetic strings running through the bridge and under the fingerboard.(Neat!) Unlike most viols, it is held, like the violin, under the chin. It was and is principally a solo instrument, possessing a modest literature from all periods, including the 20th cent.

 

I know, I just have too much time on my hands.

[fantasticsound]

Henry, etc... I concede on the word tone. 'nuff said. My point still applies to many other terms.

 

TimRocker... Sylver has some very persuasive points, and I tend to agree that the modern electric bass is as much, if not more, lower tuned guitar than it is Bass Viol. I was previously unaware the Bass Viol and the violin family were different animals. Neat!

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Henry, etc... I concede on the word tone. 'nuff said. My point still applies to many other terms.

Yay! I win, I win! Or as my mom said Joe Louis said when he beat Max Schmelling, "I glad I win." Sorry. All in good humor.

 

TimRocker... Sylver has some very persuasive points, and I tend to agree that the modern electric bass is as much, if not more, lower tuned guitar than it is Bass Viol. I was previously unaware the Bass Viol and the violin family were different animals. Neat!

Yeah. Fascinating. Sylver, a couple of questions: What about the Gambon? Wasn't that a bridge between the guitar and violin family? A gang of strings, played with a bow, sympathetic strings too, I think. Was it more like a cello or a guitar? Had frets too.

 

But with the bass, what's more important form or function? The function of the electric bass is identical to the bass viol in popular music and jazz, but needed amplification. By and large it was bassists and bass clef musicians who picked one up rather than guitarists. I know, I know. I'm a guitarist and I "play bass" when required but I'm no fool. I don't call myself a bassist and I hire a real one when it's required. I say "bass clef" musicians because I've known many a trombonists or tuba players who ended up being great electric/acoustic bass players.

 

So I tend to think of bass guitar as being part of the bass family because of the function of the instrument. Yes the design comes from the guitar lineage (form). But the role comes from it's function. Don't you think? No? No. :-)

[Lee Flier]

Well... for the record, I always refer to a whammy bar as a "vibrato bar" (or a whammy bar) and the tremolo on a my Fender amps as "tremolo" even though it says "vibrato"... so pfffftt.

 

I do agree that "tone" can be a synonym for "timbre" and it is not incorrect to use it that way.

 

And uhhh... while I'm a very big fan of the English language and can communicate with it quite well, and like to find the correct and precise words for things if possible... I have to say that, especially when describing music, it's not always possible. And I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing. Sure I could say to an engineer "Give me 3dB at 80Hz" and that would be more precise than "turn up the bass", but how do I know for sure that that's the best setting for it? And if someone presumes I know exactly what I want, does that leave room for them to contribute creatively?

 

Engineers use a lot of subjective language amongst each other just as musicians do. Since, when it comes to music, I am usually on the side of creativity and experimentation over perfection and precision, I'm OK with that.

 

--Lee

[timrocker]

Originally posted by Sylver:

Originally posted by timrocker:

Good thread/point, Neil. Here's the one I often notice "out there". "Bass Guitar". It isn't. A bass is a bass and a guitar is a guitar. The modern electric bass is the descendant of the upright bass. Not a form of guitar at all. Word.

Not to bust your stones, but ... I completely disagree that the modern electric bass is a descendent of the double bass. The Double bass is a member of the viol family, popular in the 15th-17th centuries, the double bass viol being the only surviving member of that instrument family. The viols were tuned in 4th and 3rds, which diferenciates them from the violin family, which are tuned in 5ths. Getting back to the bass guitar ... while it was created to "emulate" the double bass, which was having a hard time being heard over the increasingly more powerful guitar amplifiers, it really is a guitar. It has frets, and was never meant to be bowed. It's only plucked and picked, just like the guitar. The electric bass guitar also shares the fretboard shape of the guitar, and their earlier predicessor, the lute. The radius of the bass guitar is based(no pun) on the radius of the guitar fretboard. If you look at the fingerboard radius of a doublebass, it is much more similar to a violin, very rounded. As a matter of fact, the radius of the guitar and bass guitar fretboards make them nearly impossible to bow(Yeah, yeah, I saw "The song remains the same", but you don't think JP was doing any real playing with that bow, do ya?). The fact that the doublebass tuning was the same as the guitar's lowest 4 strings was an added plus, which is why in the pre amplifier days it was such a nice compliment to guitar music. The bass guitar is a guitar. The double bass is a viol.

 

So there!

 

OK, I guess I did bust your stones.

It isn't really my stones that are up for busting-it's whether or not a bass is a bass and a guitar is a guitar. Which, they are. As Henry pointed out (after a tip of the hat to Sylver's solid research and persuasive points) it's the role of the instrument that defines it, not its construction or similarities to other instruments.

[fantasticsound]

That was real professional of you, Henry! Be nice

 

Originally posted by timrocker:

...it's whether or not a bass is a bass and a guitar is a guitar. Which, they are. As Henry pointed out (after a tip of the hat to Sylver's solid research and persuasive points) it's the role of the instrument that defines it, not its construction or similarities to other instruments.

I happen to agree, about the role, but you stepped in something again.

 

The construction does define most instruments. It's not perfectly logical, either. Is a saxophone a brass instrument or a woodwind? Given the functional definitions of these instrument families, the correct answer is... it's a wind instrument. The key is in the sound driving apparatus. Sax's, like other wind instruments, uses a reed to drive the sound. Brass instruments use solid metal mouthpieces to drive their sound. Of course, most non-band musicians would have thought it obvious that a sax should be Brass, because of the body's phyisical construction.

 

The fact that Stanley Jordan plays his guitars exclusively with two-handed tapping techniques doesn't make them pianos. I believe the build defines the instrument, but the role of that instrument places it in a particular section of a musical group. Basses, well played, certainly do not emulate guitar playing. That doesn't mean they are inherently different from guitars in their manner of creating sound.

 

I have a feeling we won't find consensus on this one. Where are you, KornRulez and KornSuckz?

[timrocker]

I'll go along with that, Neil. Hang onto your "stones", though.

[fantasticsound]

(High voice) OK!