peel Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 I have an original Proco RAT, a Maxon 808 and a Tonebone Classic that I alternate using with my Marshall Silver Jubilee 2550 50w head Ive noticed that the RAT and Maxon 808 sound great with this amp, while the Tonebone doesnt seem to drive the amp as effectively. The Tonebone Classic has a 12ax7 tube. Is the TC 12ax7 going into the Marshall's preamp tubes the reason for a lack of oomph...? In addition, would you know what makes the 2550 series unique from other JCMs..? Thx peel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel E. Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Gain circuits that use diode clipping are generally able to produce way more overdrive than a pedal that uses a single dual triode tube. That's why high-gain tube guitar amps have more than one preamp tube per channel (or they use them in conjunction with a diode clipping circuit like on a JCM 900). A pure tube circuit using a single tube can produce a nice warm overdrive but not all-out screaming distortion like a Rat can. Does this make sense? Sorry, I don't know anything about your amp. "You never can vouch for your own consciousness." - Norman Mailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylver Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Originally posted by Gabriel E.: A pure tube circuit using a single tube can produce a nice warm overdrive but not all-out screaming distortion like a Rat can. Hmmmmmm ... I pretty much disagree with this Gabriel. My Fender HRDx gets a nice, sweet overdrive on the clean channel with just one preamp tube, it's pretty much all power tube distortion. When I add a clean boost up front(no clip circuit), it yields a really screaming lead sound. Sustains forever. Nothing wrong with going the other way, though, but it is achievable with just the tubes. Jack I really don't know what to put here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel E. Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 My Fender HRDx gets a nice, sweet overdrive on the clean channel with just one preamp tube, it's pretty much all power tube distortion. When I add a clean boost up front(no clip circuit), it yields a really screaming lead sound.But you are slamming it with an extra pre-amp stage (the clean boost) so there IS an additional clip circuit. This is not to say that it doesn't soud good. Note that a clipping circuit is simply one gain stage being used to boost a signal enough to overload a second gain stage. This can exist within a pedal, within an amp or in any combination of amps and pedals A single dual triode tube can only be used for two gain stages and the first triode can only overload the second triode by so much. So a RealTube or Tonebone will only produce so much gain in comparison to a Rat or Metalzone which have several diode gain stages cascading into each other. Likewise, a Mesa V-Twin pedal is capable of producing tons of gain because it has 4 gain stages cascading into each other (2 tubes). "You never can vouch for your own consciousness." - Norman Mailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peel Posted March 12, 2002 Author Share Posted March 12, 2002 thx for the reply so what if i put the Tonebone classic into the FX loop of the amp? Would it be enough to drive the amp. (i would assume not.) peel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylver Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Originally posted by Gabriel E.: But you are slamming it with an extra pre-amp stage (the clean boost) so there IS an additional clip circuit. This is not to say that it doesn't soud good. (2 tubes).An excellent point, and you're right, of course. I guess the same result could be achieved with a good high gain all tube pedal, though. I guess my point was that there is a difference in sound (even if only slightly) between all tube saturation and diode distortion. I really don't know what to put here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylver Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 That raises an interesting question for Myles. When pushing my HRDx on the clean channel to where it is just breaking up and crunchy, then I add the clean boost, am I just saturating the pre-amp tube? It sounds smoother and less buzzy than that. I suspect that the power tubes are getting a pretty good workout too, espcially with the them starting to break up already. Hmmmmm? I really don't know what to put here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel E. Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Oh absolutely. Tube saturation sounds different than diode saturation and EXTREMELY different than transistor saturation. Peel: Running the Tonebone through the effects loop will give you less gain than if you run it in front of the amp since you'll be placing it after the amp's preamp. It could be very noisy too. It sounds like what you want is an all-tube high-gain signal path. Am I correct? Here a few ways to do it: 1) Get a higher gain all-tube pedal such as a Mesa V-Twin or the one made by Soldano (can't remember what it's called). 2) Slam the front end of the amp with a clean boost such as a ZVex Super-Hard-On or MXR micro Amp. Not really all-tube but a good clean boost shouldn't alter your tone too much. 3) Plug straight into the amp. Turn it all the way up to overdrive the power tubes. If you wish, use a Marshall Powerbreak or some other reactive speaker load to attenuate the volume. Hope this helps. "You never can vouch for your own consciousness." - Norman Mailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myles_rose Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Peel.... Different amps load the guitar pickup differently. Some are more friendly than others when it comes to sticking a chain of devices in the input chain. Its mostly a matter of trial and error to see which amps like things in the front end and which do not, unless you have access to the schmematic and circuit diagrams. Myles Myles S. Rose www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com www.la-economy.blogspot.com www.facebook.com/mylesr www.twitter.com/myles111us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peel Posted March 12, 2002 Author Share Posted March 12, 2002 thx everyone for your contribution! much appreciated.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
signal1000 Posted March 14, 2002 Share Posted March 14, 2002 Originally posted by myles111: Different amps load the guitar pickup differently. Some are more friendly than others when it comes to sticking a chain of devices in the input chain. Its mostly a matter of trial and error to see which amps like things in the front end and which do not, unless you have access to the schmematic and circuit diagrams.I've noticed this with my Jubilee - it's not nearly as pedal friendly as my old Fender Princeton was. I could put any pedal in front of the Princeton and it would sound great. My Jubilee didn't respond nearly as well to a lot of them. Now I'm down to four pedals - my Vox wah (vocal modded), MXR Phase 90, Tube Screamer and once in a while my Matchless Dirt Box. The Dirt Box works much better with Fenders and plexi Marshalls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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