LiveMusic Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 I can't stand to play my guitar out of tune. If it's not quite right, I sometimes will just put it down and play later. But there is something I don't understand. I have a Boss 12u (EDIT: it's a TU-12h) chromatic tuner. 440 Hz is the exact middle of the scale. Seems to me that on that rare occasion when my guitar is sounding perfectly in tune to my ear, I should be able to note the meter readings for each string and archive those readings for reference each time I want to tune. If E is 440Hz straight up, I'd write 440. If A is 439.1Hz, I'd write 439.1. If D is 440.1, I'd write 440.1. And so on for each string. Shouldn't that work? Do you have trouble sometimes getting your guitar in tune or is it real easy? Lastly, this tuner... the needle wanders a bit. Seems to me, I should just be able to nail it... each string... I should be able to center that needle easily where I want it. This tuner does not do that. Is there something wrong with it? It's always been this way. And I am not happy with this situation. Seems there should be a better way. I have tried laying the tuner on top of the guitar. (Taylor acoustic) And I have tried using it inline to the amp. I know there are idiosyncrasies in tuning but with an electronic tuner, seems I should be able to always dial in what my ear hears as "perfect" from prior tunings. ------------------ Duke This message has been edited by LiveMusic on 09-15-2001 at 09:26 AM > > > [ Live! ] < < < Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott from MA Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 Originally posted by LiveMusic: If E is 440Hz straight up, I'd write 440. If A is 439.1Hz, I'd write 439.1. If D is 440.1, I'd write 440.1. And so on for each string. Ummmmm... I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do here... but FYI, here are the frequencies of each open string: E - 329.6 A - 440 D - 587.3 G - 784 B - 987.7 E - 1318.5 Originally posted by LiveMusic: the needle wanders a bit. Seems to me, I should just be able to nail it... each string... I should be able to center that needle easily where I want it. This tuner does not do that. Is there something wrong with it? I wouldn't expect the needle to stay centered. The actual frequency of the string changes constantly as it rings out. Scott (just another cantankerous bastard) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonafide Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Dead strings, or old strings will not tune properly. Acoustic guitars do not generally have true intonation so you will not get a proper tuning from a tuner either way. All guitars generally are sharp on the 'G' string and you slowly find the right tensions for 'close' to accurate tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Wing Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 I have a qwiktune tuner and an acoustic. I can get the needle right in the middle, the green light, but it doesn't stay there (though there are days when it seems like one or two strings never want to get in the green). It quickly moves low or high. As long as I get green as I hit the string, I don't worry too much how long it sustains the note. I have a tuner on the PC and it never agrees with the qwiktune. I took the qwiktune to guitar lesson, and had my teacher tune my guitar, and then watched the tuner. The tuner was going green for the strings he tuned. I stopped using the PC software. I figure the mike wasn't accurate enough for the software. My ear is getting better; but I still can't tune by ear. Old and dirty strings will definitely affect the tuning process. There are two theories about arguing with a woman. Neither one works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip_dup1 Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 It seems to me you`re approaching it backwards. don`t use ANY tuner to determine what sounds good to your ear-it will not be the same. All tuners are meant to get the strings into a numerical ballpark. After that, use your ear to fine tune and forget the numbers. One or two strums should tell you if something is a bit off. If you`re playing with other instruments especially, what your tuner says won`t necessarily match with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratman_dup1 Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 I agree with Skip. I just use my tuner to get in the ballpark and use my ear from there. Actually my tuner works quite well for all but the B string, I always have to tune that a little sharp to get it to sound right. As was already mentioned the strings are always changing freq. so it's hard to get the needle to stabilize for any length of time, especially with a really sensitive tuner. Also, the freq. of the string is different at the attack stage (when you very first hit the string) than on the sustain stage (right after you hit the string when the sound is sustaining). Generally a tuner will read sharper at the initial attack stage then drop a bit for the sustain stage. I have gotten into the habit of using the sustain stage to tune, it generally is more stable on the tuner, holds to a certain freq. longer, and sounds better to my ear than tuning using the initial attack readings on a tuner. As is so often quoted here, just go with what works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrmac Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 I agree that you gotta do the final tweaks by ear but I've seen these clip on contact mics for tuners that look really useful. It clips onto the headstock. This salesperson used one in the shop where I bought my acoustic and even in a noisy showroom it was easy to tune the guitar. I have no idea who makes them or where to get one though, sorry. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynx Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 The other guys have covered most of it. A few more thoughts. An electronic tuner is not an exact device in the price range of what you are using (portable consumer devices). Even the new TU-2 ($99.00!), which I recently tried, sometimes hesitates making it difficult to get it to hold on the "green".(this with a new Tele) I use an old Korg GT-6 (analog needle dial only) which, after the attack -on the harmonic-, as mentioned, settles in about as steady as anything. This tuner must be switched for each string so I'll probably be replacing it soon for the TU-2. As far as your Taylor goes here is something to consider. It sounds like it's not wired with a pick-up and your using the tuner mic. (If not, the following is still worth keeping in mind ) With the tuner mic my tuner and probably most anything else short of pro studio gear is likely to have the problem you describe. The limitations of the tuners coupled with the most basic little mic are not going to yield very satisfying or consistent results. Since I learned this I always tune my acoustics (a 6 and a 12) with a removable pickup. It is worth the extra hassle. You will get more accurate results faster, which will keep your axe in tune longer.(If wired ALWAYS plug in.) Once again intonation is rarely exact, especially on acoustics which usually, depending on weather(humidity, temperature,etc.) need fine tuning. Which brings us to your ears, the last variable, and ultimately the most important.Depending on the time of day, amount and level of noise you've been exposed to that day, background noise where you are tuning,etc., your ears can be "fresh" and responsive or confused or fatigued and inaccurate.I have days when the guitars are easily made to sound "lush" and others where it seems like they are broken and just won't quite get in tune. And I too, DO so hate it when they are not. C'est la vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Originally posted by gtrmac@hotmail.com: I agree that you gotta do the final tweaks by ear but I've seen these clip on contact mics for tuners that look really useful. It clips onto the headstock. This salesperson used one in the shop where I bought my acoustic and even in a noisy showroom it was easy to tune the guitar. I have no idea who makes them or where to get one though, sorry. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif It's called the Intellitouch Tuner. One important caveat; it does not hold the instrument securely. Be carefull using this tuner as it is made of plastics that are difficult, if not impossbile, to repair, should you break it. With a price in the $50 range, it's a good tool, but expensive to replace. It has a red backlit LCD as well. Great for tuning on dark stages. String mass and rigidity creates differences in the freq./pitch correlation. This is why we need to intonate strings with different scale lengths. (I.E., adjustable saddle position on electrics.) Therefore, there is no perfect correlation of absolute freq. and pitch. Many guitarists tune their G string slightly flat to bring the E major chord into more accurate tuning. This shifts other chords, however, so you compromise. Something that is best left to your ear to decide. The best use of a tuner requires you know how the needle or LED's will react when a specific instrument is tuned the way you desire. Different instruments may require different readout on your tuner to be similarly tuned. Experiment. You'll discover what works with your instruments and your tuner. ------------------ Neil Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveMusic Posted September 16, 2001 Author Share Posted September 16, 2001 To Scott, since it's obvious I don't know what I'm talking about... all I was going by is the very center needle position has a number -- 440Hz -- and that's what I look at. Each time I strike a different string, that pitch lights up and the needle moves to more or less the middle... which is the 440 number. What the actual string frequencies are, I didn't know that. (Do now.) I still don't understand how this tuner really works as far as the numbers you mentioned. Guess it doesn't really matter, though. Bottom line, you guys answered it -- you just use the tuner to get ball park close and then tune by ear. That's what I've always done. I (incorrectly, I guess) assumed that the needle should just go to that reading and stay there. Now, it makes sense why it wavers around. It's questions like these that show how much more you guys know than an amateur like me. EDIT: BTW, this Taylor has onboard Fishman electronics. Q. The "on" switch has two settings -- "L" and "H". Which one should I use? I guess that's Low and High, whatever that is. Q. There is a button for "Pitch"; one for "Down"; one for "Up." What do these do? ------------------ Duke This message has been edited by LiveMusic on 09-16-2001 at 01:25 PM > > > [ Live! ] < < < Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott from MA Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Originally posted by LiveMusic: Each time I strike a different string, that pitch lights up and the needle moves to more or less the middle... which is the 440 number. What the actual string frequencies are, I didn't know that. (Do now.) I still don't understand how this tuner really works as far as the numbers you mentioned. Guess it doesn't really matter, though. Your tuner apparently detects which string you are hitting (by which frequency you are nearest) and recalibrates for the center. I know that on old VU-style tuners, you had to set a switch for which string you were tuning. I guess most tuners are "auto-ranging" now... I don't know, I don't actually have one. Originally posted by LiveMusic: Q. The "on" switch has two settings -- "L" and "H". Which one should I use? I guess that's Low and High, whatever that is. This is impedance matching. The proper setting is determined by what you are pluggin into. Most guitar amps have high impedance (High-Z) inputs (although I'm not sure about acoustic amps). Mic inputs on a mixer would be low impedance (Low-Z). Scott (just another cantankerous bastard) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Originally posted by Scott from MA: This is impedance matching. The proper setting is determined by what you are pluggin into. Most guitar amps have high impedance (High-Z) inputs (although I'm not sure about acoustic amps). Mic inputs on a mixer would be low impedance (Low-Z). Actually, Scott, if memory serves, this tuner uses lo and hi to better calibrate for low freq. notes. Especially when used to tune a bass or other extremely low freq. instrument. Check with Boss or your owner's manual to be sure. ------------------ Neil Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sysexguy Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Has anyone had any experience with the lower cost (relatively speaking) Peterson LCD Strobe Tuner? How about vs. the Korg rack (DT2?) that has a strobe mode? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sysexguy Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Has anyone had any experience with the lower cost (relatively speaking) Peterson LCD Strobe Tuner? How about vs. the Korg rack (DT2?) that has a strobe mode? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott from MA Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Originally posted by fantasticsound: Actually, Scott, if memory serves, this tuner uses lo and hi to better calibrate for low freq. notes. Especially when used to tune a bass or other extremely low freq. instrument. Check with Boss or your owner's manual to be sure. Hey, Neil... maybe I read it wrong, but I think the hi/lo switch he was talking about is on the guitar (Fishman pickup system), not the tuner. Scott (just another cantankerous bastard) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Live, your post does seem to indicate you're speaking of the guitar, not the tuner. (per Scott's comment) However, I believe you mean the tuner (re: lo vs. hi, etc.). Which is it? ------------------ Neil Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveMusic Posted September 17, 2001 Author Share Posted September 17, 2001 Those questions about the switch and buttons are on the tuner, not my guitar. ------------------ Duke > > > [ Live! ] < < < Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill V Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 "" The 440 means that the tuner is calibrated for the open A string to be at 440 hz. When you strike your B or G string the "440" is lighting up because it is letting you know that the tuner is calibrated at "A-440" but it doses'nt mean that the B or G are tuned to "440". Only the A is at "440". A-440" is just a standard tuning calibration that people use so that everyone else in the band will be in tune with each other. Many tuners will let you change the calibration to other preset calibrations like "A-438" or "A-434". Everyone in the band has to have their tuners set to the same calibration or else they will not be in tune with each other. The "440" refers to only the note A. It is the same note as the A below middle C on a piano. A-440 is standard concert tuning. A tuning fork is usually tuned to A-440 and it is what an orchestra will usually tune to. Like "Scott from MA" said the other strings will have different corresponding frequencies and your tuner will automatically be able to calculate this. It's just that A below middle C was the note that was chosen many years ago to use for calibrating to. Some tuners like Sabines will automatically calibrate to any note you play into it. For example lets say you have a piano that is slightly flat (the A below middle C is reading below A-440), well the tuner will lock into what ever the piano is reading, then you can pass that tuner around to everyone else in the band so everyone will be calibrated to the piano and everything should be just hunky dory. Hopefully this helps explain it without confusing you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill V Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 <"Q. There is a button for "Pitch"; one for "Down"; one for "Up." What do these do?"> These are probably the buttons used to change the calibration of the tuner. If you push the up button it will probably flash a number higher than "440" and tune sharp. The down button will flash lower than "440" and tune flat, probably, I think, I don't know what kind of tuner you have and they are all different, but thats how mine works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott from MA Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Originally posted by LiveMusic: Those questions about the switch and buttons are on the tuner, not my guitar. OK, sorry... your post was unclear. Ignore my response. You had me wondering what Fishman model had an impedance matching feature. None I've seen. Scott (just another cantankerous bastard) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Hey, ya'll, it's an imperfect world---guitars are NEVER really fully in tune (no tempered instrument is). Skip's advice is the best--- rely on your ear more than any "fail-safe" device...maybe check the Feiten nut-placement system... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill V Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Originally posted by d: Hey, ya'll, it's an imperfect world---guitars are NEVER really fully in tune (no tempered instrument is). Skip's advice is the best--- rely on your ear more than any "fail-safe" device...maybe check the Feiten nut-placement system... This is true. Some people would rather their guitars be tuned ever so slightly flat rather than sharp, because the brain works with the fingers to constantly evaluate and apply the right pressure to the fretboard so that it will be in tune. You can always sharpen a note by appling more pressure or bending slightly but you can't flatten a note that's too sharp. This message has been edited by Bill V on 09-17-2001 at 07:05 PM This message has been edited by Bill V on 09-17-2001 at 09:52 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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