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DAW software shortcomings?


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i'm considering moving to the computer world for recording. this will require buying a new computer and software. i will NOT be going to Protools, but all other hardware options (pc/mac/commodore64) and software choices are wide open. i'm intending to chose the software that best floats my boat first and then base the hardware around that choice. so... before i spend a ton of hours downloading demos on my ancient 28.k modem and reading manufacturer's hype, could someone in the know be nice enough to post the missing features of various DAW software by the various diff companies. i.e. who DOESN"T have delay compensation for plugins? who DOESN"T support VST? or DX? Who can't burn a CD? who's in financial trouble, etc... and other pros/cons. i've spent some time searching here, but there seems to be a wealth of new versions released of late. below i've listed what i believe to be out there. maybe this would be of help to others as well. thanks in advance. on the PC: sawstudio 2.? samplitude 7.0 sonar 2.2 nuendo 2.0 N-Track 3.? Cooledit Pro 2.? on the mac: DP3 3.? Logic ? -d. gauss
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[quote]Originally posted by d gauss: [b]i'm considering moving to the computer world for recording. this will require buying a new computer and software. i will NOT be going to Protools, but all other hardware options (pc/mac/commodore64) and software choices are wide open. i'm intending to chose the software that best floats my boat first and then base the hardware around that choice. so... before i spend a ton of hours downloading demos on my ancient 28.k modem and reading manufacturer's hype, could someone in the know be nice enough to post the missing features of various DAW software by the various diff companies. i.e. who DOESN"T have delay compensation for plugins? who DOESN"T support VST? or DX? Who can't burn a CD? who's in financial trouble, etc... and other pros/cons. i've spent some time searching here, but there seems to be a wealth of new versions released of late. below i've listed what i believe to be out there. maybe this would be of help to others as well. thanks in advance. on the PC: sawstudio 2.? samplitude 7.0 sonar 2.2 nuendo 2.0 N-Track 3.? Cooledit Pro 2.? on the mac: DP3 3.? Logic ? -d. gauss[/b][/quote]I'm not an expert,but, do you know what they are going to ask you first?? Your budget. Because the difference in price between Nuendo & Sonar for example, to me is huge.

 

Jesus Is Coming, Make Music, Get Ready!

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[quote]Originally posted by ViLo: [b] I'm not an expert,but, do you know what they are going to ask you first?? Your budget. Because the difference in price between Nuendo & Sonar for example, to me is huge.[/b][/quote]naturally, i'd like to do it for cheap since the second i buy something it is obsolete. however, the $ diff between $400 & $1200 software isn't that much if you compare it to the diff between, say an $200 RNC compressor and a 20K fairchild... and they both have plusses and minuses! -d. gauss
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Alndln can give you good advise for building a solid PC DAW cheap. Cant say I wouldn't consider this if I was starting from scratch again. On the Mac side. Right now MacMall has some of the old dual 867's left for $1499. I think these would still boot in OS9 if needed. That would be a nice one for the money for a DAW. As far as Mac software : I have DP 3, which I like a lot, but it looks like we will be waiting a while for an OSX version. Again if I were starting from scratch with a Mac, I would have to look hard at Logic because of their connection to Apple. I don't see how they won't gain the upper hand now. As far a AD's I have a pair of MOTU 828's that give me 16 analog in's and out's along with adat in's/out's through firewire. The 828's come bundled with 'Audiodesk', which is a midiless version of DP. It does give you a chance to get a feel for DP, and you can upgrade at a lower cost if you wish.
So Many Drummers. So Little Time...
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I like Sonar a lot. The fact that I don't have to deal with copy protection is a huge plus. I like the interface, but that's a matter of taste. Certain features like the console view need work, but I don't use that since I do most of my work from the track view. Now that ASIO support is out I think Sonar will be the defacto Windows sequencer if it's not already. Are the guys who make SAW still in business? I would be carefull going that route if I were you... Personally, if I were starting fresh I would either go with Sonar, Nuendo, or DP3 if I were on the Mac.
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I've tried: Cool Edit Sonar Cakewalk Nuendo To me Nuendo and Sonar had the most intuitive interfaces. But then I've been a computer geek for the last 25 years ;) Budget and working style will probably affect you the most. Download them one at a time demo the heck out of them. Use a notebook or PDA to keep notes about what you liked and don't like about each one. Everyone here will give you a different reason why they like what they like. Ultimately budget and work style will determine which one you get.

RobT

 

Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat

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The choice of DAW platform really doesn't have that much to do with how a particular app "sounds", cause the app doesn't really have a "sound" per se. Now the plug-ins and bundled effects have a "sound", but these are changing so fast, and so many new ones are coming and old ones fading, that, like they say about the weather, if you don't like it now, just wait about 15 minutes. So I don't see the plug-in availability as that huge an issue, either. And everyone knows that the best hardware sounds a lot better than the best plug-ins. But the hardware isn't getting much better while the plug-ins are improving rapidly, so the future is anyone's guess. I also don't see the interface as that big a deal, whether it's "intuitive" or whatnot. The interface that everyone talks about is the default interface that the DAW offers. But all the DAWs have highly customizable interfaces, and the big plus of DAWs is that you can customize the interface to fit your working method. If you're not going to customize your interface, you are probably using the software in such a basic, rudimentary fashion that any of the basic DAW packages would be fine. So how do you decide on a platform? Here's my handy-dandy list: - if you are working with other people in a studio or project or particular industry, use what the other guys are using so you can swap files and tips, etc. - use what you've used in the past, since you already know your way around it. Crack the manual once in a blue moon...keep it on the tank lid of your toilet... - any of the companies can go financially wacko, this is a real problem. All you can do is stick with the more established companies, but there are no guarantees. - price. - support, both from the company and on the web in general. - upgrade and bug-fixing history. I just about gave up on Cakewalk as they fell behind the other packages..until Sonar finally jumped them back into the pack as a contender. Emagic...lots of various Logic bugs and fixes and compatibility problems, etc., a little too much for me...all you can do is check the history of the packages out by logging onto the various BBSs and email lists maintained by users. But remember, bad news travels fast, good news is taken for granted. - and lastly, go read the reviews and "shootouts" coverage in EM, Keyboard, Sound on Sound, etc. all this sounds like too much trouble? then just find one of the packages on sale, make sure your hardware supports it, buy it, learn it, and you'll be fine. M Peasley
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AFAIK, Nuendo 2 is the only DAW with latency compensation on inserts, sends and external sends. That alone makes it worth the price of admission.
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards.
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Nu2 is not released yet - if all that stuff works...eventually...then it will be nice. I suppose it will work, but I also imagine there will be bugs at first that most people won't be able to live with in production. Good, direction, fortunately the current version is a very solid DAW and not a bad choice. That is what I do most of my work in. [quote] DAW software shortcomings [/quote]you can say that again.... Cubase SX is a step toward Nuendo 2.0 On the PC, that and Sonar are fairly equivalent. If VST support without a wrapper is important, then Sonar is out. Sonar has plug delay compensation (PDC) for DirX in all paths - it can be a little buggy at times (looping audio playback). CubaseSX/Nuendo has PDC on the channels but not the groups or sends. There are ways to work around this that are not too bad, but it can be work. Sonar has no groups to master fader concept. If you have a drum submix, it will not go thru the master fader. There is no way, for example, to have one instance of a master bus compressor affect all channels and groups (unless it is outboard). Probably their worst "feature". Samplitude has full PDC for DirX and VST in v7, just released. The demo I DL'd has numerous problems. The previous release, 6.05, was solid but lacked many features that the other have: parameter automation, PDC, DXI/VSTi support, etc. I imagine at some point V7 will get sorted out and it will be a nice product. The SAW demo I loaded was flakey and looked like an absolute nightmare - that is for a special group - if you are one of them, I reckon you'll see it and know it. I am not. So today on the PC, I'd say you have Nuendo, CubaseSX, and Sonar that are working right now well enough to have a production system. And for the time being they seemed to have a future. You can get a demo of both CubaseSX and Sonar. If you think you may like Nuendo's extended future features over CubaseSX, the CubaseSX demo is so close to Nuendo, that it will serve for both. Nuendex, Cubendo - take your pick. The only one of these that burns CDs is Samplitude. Some people love it for that - I find it awkward. For CD creation, I think Wavelab is the product to beat and they have almost no serious competitor since Sound Forge screwed itself up.

Steve Powell - Bull Moon Digital

www.bullmoondigital.com

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[quote]Originally posted by d gauss: [b]steve, thank you for taking the time to make such an excellent and informative post. anybody else care to chime in? craig? -d. gauss[/b][/quote]Yeah, well, when searching for the holy grail, you end up with a lot of beer steins on the shelf ;-)

Steve Powell - Bull Moon Digital

www.bullmoondigital.com

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I work for a Nuendo dealer so I can't possibly be objective but the fact is that I recommended Nuendo to the company because I thought it is a good product. A few years down the road I still beleive this to be true. But, I think that Nuendo is most suited to professional studios and particularly those that are involved with Post Production. That is what the software is designed for. I use CubaseSX for my own projects and I think this is the best spftware for a musician or a project studio. Nuendo has features specifically suited for Post production and it is much more expensive. CubaseSX is a complete "Virtual Studio" and with the addition of some VST instruments you can do pretty much everything. For mastering and CD production I use Wavelab and I think this is an excellent program. I use Windows PC's and I build custom systems to run CubasSX and Nuendo. I have configured and installed systems in music studios, TV Studios, radio stations and Post Production Studios and they have all been very reliable. I appreciate the quality of Macintosh computers but the lower cost and upgradeability of Windows PC's is worth considering IMO. My company uses RME and M-Audio hardware in systems and we find these to be completely reliable. But I have reservations about using USB based audio devices for reliability issues. I have also relied on Intel based systems for reasons of reliability and hardware compatibility. AMD certainly makes compatible hardware but I haven't researched the possibilities thoroughly. I would be glad to make specific recommendations for a custom PC and I even have an article with detailed instructions online if you want to build your own. My custom PC service is only available to Japanese customers so I'm not intending to Spam here.

Mac Bowne

G-Clef Acoustics Ltd.

Osaka, Japan

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Buying a DAW is a daunting task but you need to ask yourself some questions. What are you looking to do? If you are into video and audio, you`ll want a DAW that incorporates both and works easily like Digital Performer. If its audio that you will primarily use the DAW for you need to sit down with the interfaces of each and decide which feels most comfortable. I went with DP because I heard nightmares about Logic and I did not want to go into the PC world. Who will you be working with? OK this was a biggie for me because all of my studio comrades used a MAC. Some had PT but I did not sense in spending all that $$$ when I could get DP. Now all of my studio people use DP and its a happy family so what do you all of your people use? That will give you some idea where you need to go. What is your budget? DAWs are so cheap that you can get a really top notch DAW for $1200 and then have $$$ left over for the hardware. If you go the PT route you will always be chasing the dragons tail so unless you have to get PT, stay away. PT is necessary for production houses that need dozens of tracks with plugs. I get around 40 tracks and 12 plugs (use auxes for more flexibilty) on my MAC G4 450. Will you use a PC or MAC? This is an never ending battle but you have to use what most of the people you will be working with are suing just to make compatability a breeze. If you are working alone then you may want to wander over to another platform but again, try to spend some time with each program and see what feels most natural. When I got DP I hated the interface but after spending some time with it (about 100) hours I was totally flying on it and now its very natural and Logic still seems like a bad dream. I am hoping Apple will make Logic more user friendly and then I may get it for more flexibility. You`ve got an important decision to make so take your time, read about each DAW and spend time with each if you can. Ernest
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<> Gotta drive to the airport at 5 AM so this won't be a long answer. But I have some questions; which of the following are important to you: 1. Video support 2. Video editing 3. MIDI beyond just importing SMFs 4. Integrated channel strip vs. plug-ins 5. Acidized WAV file support 6. REX file support 7. Export in compressed media formats 8. Surround capabilities 9. Hardware control surface support 10. Privately owned vs. part of larger corp 11. Cross-platform file compatibility 12. Multiprocessor support 13. How important are soft synths to you 14. How important is automation to you These factors will have a HUGE bearing on your choice. Gimme some answers and I'll drown you with opinions .
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You could also build or buy a fairly inexpensive 2.2 GHZ P4 computer and add a Roland Studio Pack to it for another $400-$600 U.S. This will also give you a chance to try the bundled Logic RPC software, but as it has already been said, Sonar will probably be easier for you to use with the RSP in a PC context, but try Logic RPC first before running out to buy Sonar. There will be no upgrades for Logic beyond Logic 5 Platinum for PC platform however. You can also use the RSP with Macintosh. This will open the possibility of future Logic upgrades and/or Cubase/Nuendo, but I don't have a Mac so I haven't tried these options yet. I may be getting Cubase SX for the PC soon. For an indepth look at my experience with the Roland Studio Pack click on the link below. http://musicinit.com/roland_index.html Dan BTW My sytem is back up with the new power supply and Full Tower Case.
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[quote]Originally posted by d gauss: [b](pc/mac/commodore64) [/b][/quote]Commodore 64? :D ,well,mine still works.Anyway like steve&Craig say in so many words,I'd pretty much narrow it down to Sonar/Samplitude and CubaseSX and "Do" take the time to download the demo's,because user interface/freindliness plays a huge part here.Like Steve I use Sonar and Nuendo,but mostly use Sonar for creation and Nuendo mostly for my surround experiments.My take is like this,Samplitude or Nuendo for audio mainly precision and lite midi,and Sonar and Cubase for an all in 1 app.For Audio Samplitude is a little more advanced than Nuendo but Nuendo is more solid(right now),and Sonar hands down over Cubase because there are just too many unresolved problems on SX that are more than real.The only problem Iv'e had with delay compensation on Sonar with looping is the Waves plug-ins which I sold and don't use anymore,the latest FXpansion DX-VST wrapper(4.2b) also seems to compensate with no problems now as well.For Mac I'd probably narrow it down to DP or Logic,DP for ease of use and being solid and Logic for features and instrument support.If you go PC I can map out a great inexpensive system and tell you exactly what to get and what your options are and even help you via Email assemble the thing.If your interested PM me.Oh yeah,the C-64 and Dr. T's still ROOLZ BABY!! :D
"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
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[quote]Originally posted by Alndln Hammer: [QB Oh yeah,the C-64 and Dr. T's still ROOLZ BABY!! :D [/QB][/quote]god, someone actually remembers that! help me out with a system config and i most surely owe you a beer at least! :) -d. gauss
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[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [QB I have some questions; which of the following are important to you: 1. Video support (would be cool) 2. Video editing (would be cooler) 3. MIDI beyond just importing SMFs (what are SMF's?) 4. Integrated channel strip vs. plug-ins (can i have both?) 5. Acidized WAV file support (no big deal. i might have a beer, but ACID is out of the question) 6. REX file support (what's REX? Rex Smith?) 7. Export in compressed media formats (no need) 8. Surround capabilities (Aside from the murder thing, i kind of go with phil spector on the mono issue! most folks can't set up 2 speakers correctly , let alone 5 or 6!) 9. Hardware control surface support (if it works with a DA7, i'm in heaven!) 10. Privately owned vs. part of larger corp (it's me vs. the world) 11. Cross-platform file compatibility (not a mjor factor) 12. Multiprocessor support (only if i get a box that has more than one) 13. How important are soft synths to you 14. How important is automation to you (very...otherwise i'd stay out of the computer world) [/QB][/quote]
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[quote]Originally posted by d gauss: [b] help me out with a system config and i most surely owe you a beer at least! :) -d. gauss[/b][/quote]Just PM me,it'll take up too much space here.
"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
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I find that Pro Tools LE (Digi 002) does it best for me overall. Of course, I still use Sonar for loops and Sonar and Logic Platinum for MIDI sometimes, but 90% of what I do on the computer, I do in Pro Tools. But since you don't want PT ( :p ;) ) I'd recommend Sonar. I think it's a good program, and pretty capable in many ways.
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Where do people come up with this hogwash? I've used EVERY sequencer/DAW available for Mac that isn't made by Avid, and Logic is by far the MOST intuitive. It requires a small shift in perception, because every function is instantly accessible; you don't have to scroll through layers of menus to find it. And most functions are non-destructive and adjustable in real time. The notation blows everything else away. The built-in plugins are superb. It's the best program as fast as hardware compatibilty and the ONLY one that will allow you to use multiple audio drivers simultaneously. Spend an hour with a Logic user before you buy into that tired, old "logic is difficult" mantra.

The Black Knight always triumphs!

 

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[quote]Originally posted by d gauss: [b]could you list it's shortcomings for me? thanks. -d. gauss[/b][/quote]As soon as I figure out how to import a .wav file I'll let you know,it's been a few weeks already.I'll get back to you in a few months. :D
"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
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Logic has the same shortcomings as any other desktop DAW. I've never been a big fan of tracking directly into a computer. The noise is an issue unless you can hide the CPU in another room - I can't; not enough space - and there always seems to be ever so few milliseconds of latency...just enough to alter the feel slightly. Once you get the audio in there, Logic is a joy to use. Automated mixing is easy to use and easy to edit. Control surfaces are available. Routing is very flexible AND very easy. You can configure any sort of virtual "mixer" that suits the project. Logic 6 will have a cool feature that keeps track of all audio files in a project. Oh, sorry, you wanted shortcomings. Let's see...um...

The Black Knight always triumphs!

 

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[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b]Where do people come up with this hogwash? [/b][/quote]So far were only discussing PC apps for the most part and Logic's not really availible on that platform anymore. [quote][b]Logic is by far the MOST intuitive[/b][/quote]Should I even comment? [quote][b]because every function is instantly accessible; you don't have to scroll through layers of menus to find it. [/b][/quote]Even more so with Sonar,just a right click away from anything [quote][b]The notation blows everything else away[/b][/quote]Ditto [quote][b]The built-in plugins are superb[/b][/quote]Huh?A couple of the softsynths are ok but I'll take PT's BF plugs or Sonars DSPFX and Timeworks stuff way over Logic's audio plugs. [quote][b]best program as fast as hardware compatibilty [/b][/quote]Maybe in Mac-Land,but on the PC I find WDM the best low latencey(1.5ms,no clicks/dropouts) driver protocol provided you card manufacturer has good WDM drivers. [quote][b]Spend an hour with a Logic user before you buy into that tired, old "logic is difficult" mantra. [/b][/quote]Ditto.Some people either love the UI or just can't get past it.I will add some positive comments though.I regard Logic as a very innovative and pro app especially since the new 6.0,and my favourite new features are the "Freeze CPU" and the "IO Plugin",2 things I wish I had in Sonar and other's probably wish they had in their apps.The new audio browser is nice but no different from Sonars loop browsre minus the aciding capabilities.Like all of have stated though,try them all ,even if you have to go to your local music store.UI is in the eyes of the user,so are preferences.
"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
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[b]Dan South Routing is very flexible AND very easy. You can configure any sort of virtual "mixer" that suits the project. [/b] I don't know what version of Logic you are using, but my Roland Studio Pack version of Logic RPC is a [b]NIGHTMARE[/b] with routing options using the ENVIROMENT and this is coming from a guy who built his first PAIA synthesizer which is even older than the C64 and I programmed one of them too! The PAIA synth (was it model 2750??) used nothing BUT PATCH CORDS. I have ported all of my music to Sonar 2.0 now and don't even have Logic RPC on here anymore. I will admit though that I liked the REAL-TIME effects and the Wave trigger play thing built into LogicRPC. Dan http://musicinit.com/roland_index.html
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d gauss - SMF's are "standard midi files" - usually midi files you buy or download that you import into your sequencer instead of recording your own. REX - is a type of file you create using Steinberg's Recycle software. You input an audio file (wav, etc) into Recycle, and the software chops it up according to where the transients appear. Then each chopped section gets assigned a MIDI note. This is a REX file - a combo midi/sample file that you can load into Cubase or Reason. There may be other software that can use the files, but I don't know what they are. It's a cool approach: you can playback the midi file, triggering the chopped waveforms, and then do whatever you want in MIDI to change it up as you please. For example, you just change the tempo and the chopped notes now play slower - without artifacts, etc. M Peasley
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