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Rhythm vs. Lead playing


bvdd

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Anybody play rhythm guitar anymore?

I'm a 50 yr old living in Southern NH and nothing has ticked me

off over the years quite like the total ignorance around here

of the role of Rhythm guitar in rock. When people constantly ask

me why my 3 piece band sounds like 5 or 6 guys, I say simple ..

we all play rhythm. Yea, it would be nice to sit back with my

crunched out guitar and amp, just waiting for my solo, letting

everyone else worry about holding it all down. But around here the

'lack of rhythm' jones spreads to bass players and drummers too.

By then it's a real cluster f**k.

 

Sometimes I wish guitar players were required to study Eddie Cochran,

Chuck Berry, and John Lennon before they started playing lead lines.

Hell, some of the best rhythm guitarists ever are Steve Ray, Vince Gill,

Mark Knopfler, and Billy Gibbons .. guys known almost totally for their

soloing.

 

Sorry, I just needed to rant since there's nobody around here that

gets it.

 

Bill.

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You got that right. Solid rhythm guitarists work regularly for pay. Guitar soloists perform at Guitar Center and on "open jam night". A guitar solo is nice sometimes - but MAKE IT SHORT.
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Originally posted by fet:

A guitar solo is nice sometimes - but MAKE IT SHORT.

 

By the way... why do they call it a "guitar solo" when it always has a rhythm section backing it up? If it's a SOLO, shouldn't everyone else stop playing?! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Scott

(just another cantankerous bastard)

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Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:

Rhythm and Lead, eh?

 

Aren't they the same thing? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Friggin' hilarious!!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

I always spend more time working out my rhythm guitar parts than anything else on a song.

And yes, a lot of my lead playing is more "ruptured rhythm" than anything else!!

 

Steve

(bbbblang, bbblang, bbblang...)

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Whaddya mean people don't play rhythm anymore? Who can forget such Metallica moments as: "ch-chuck, pause, ch-ch-ch-chuck, pause, daa-daa-daaaaaa". Oh, I'm sorry, am I dripping with sarchasm here? Yeah, well I guess we have to get over it, or cause a revolution, cause the younger set don't play with any blues in thier music either. Unfortunate that the people getting record contracts and airplay today (With a few notable exceptions)didn't grow up listening to The Who(Pete played rhythm like NOBODY), Pink Floyd and Hendrix. That's it, I'm taking over!
I really don't know what to put here.
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Originally posted by Sylver:

Whaddya mean people don't play rhythm anymore? Who can forget such Metallica moments as: "ch-chuck, pause, ch-ch-ch-chuck, pause, daa-daa-daaaaaa". Oh, I'm sorry, am I dripping with sarchasm here? Yeah, well I guess we have to get over it, or cause a revolution, cause the younger set don't play with any blues in thier music either. Unfortunate that the people getting record contracts and airplay today (With a few notable exceptions)didn't grow up listening to The Who(Pete played rhythm like NOBODY), Pink Floyd and Hendrix. That's it, I'm taking over!

 

The worst moments of The Who were when Pete T. would try to whip out a solo http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

I agree about the lack of "rhythm" playing in todays rock. Went to see the Bad Brains (excuse me... Soul Brains) reunion show and the two opening bands made me feel old.

 

"All the songs sound the same and you can't understand the singer!" I was heard telling my wife.

 

Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk - *Screaming vocals* over a fast part then - Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk *REPEAT*

 

Then the next band comes on:

 

Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk-chunk Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk-chunk Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk-chunk - *Screaming vocals* over a fast part then - Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk-chunk Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk-chunk Ch-chunk ch-ch-ch chunk-chunk-chunk *REPEAT*

 

(I didn't however, hear that many solos. From what I've read, solo are "out" right now.)

 

All I can say is thank god for Dr. Know (Bad Brains guitarist). Still a bad-ass after all these years. They were all super nice, too, if a little too high.

 

Bob

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Originally posted by lockbody:

The worst moments of The Who were when Pete T. would try to whip out a solo http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

 

Bob

Notice that I didn't mention Pete's lead playing ...

I really don't know what to put here.
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Anybody can crank open a 100 watt Marshall and wank off! Playing rhythm guitar is an art! ...speaking as an owner of 10 guitars who has been playing for 25 years. Yikes am I that old? The foundation of any great band is the interplay between the rhythm guitar, bass, & drums...but playing rhythm guitar is not sexy...lead guitar players get all the chicks! (After the singer!) I can hold my own on lead but get much greater satisfaction playing a solid rhythm.
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Yea, I forgot to mention Townsend. Check out his work on

"I Can't Explain" or "Won't get Fooled Again". That's what

you really call rhythm and lead at the same time ..brilliant.

 

Thanx gang for the feedback, I may feel alone up here in

Cow Hampshire but it's good to know you're all out there

with the goods.

 

Bill.

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Originally posted by take5:

but playing rhythm guitar is not sexy...lead guitar players get all the chicks!

 

Last time I checked, "chicks" weren't the reason I got into the music business. Of course, I was only 7 when I started playing guitar... so I guess women would have been pretty far from my mind! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

Scott

(just another cantankerous bastard)

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Originally posted by bvdd:

Anybody play rhythm guitar anymore?

 

I haven't heard anyone "play" rhythm guitar since SRV.

 

Allan Holdsworth does, but probably not like you think. Eric Johnson does sometimes. The guy that plays for Diane Krall does. Chet Atkins did. I guess some people here and there do, but don't integrate with their style unless it's in a staid manner.

 

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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Ever have people come up to you and say something like "Hey, you play guitar, right? Do you play lead or rhythm?" My response is usually, "I play music." Of course there are some dorks that respond with "I only play lead guitar." Okay, so what do you do for the other 98 percent of the song, you moron!!! Younger players are usually more interested in soloing ability more so than comping technique. I felt that way when I was younger. As I matured musically, I realized how important it was to learn how to play rhythm and in essence, how to play the song! I also realized how challenging it is to do it well. After all, lead playing is mostly single notes and lines. When playing rhythm, you have to juggle anywhere from two to six different notes and keep time. The ability to play rhythm guitar is essential!
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While most of my friends know that Hendrix was my favorite guitar player, they usually think it's because of his soloing skills. While I like his lead lines, it's the easiest part of his music to replicate.

 

But I respect his rhythm playing more... Song after song of inventive parts... some of my favorites include Little Wing, Castles Made of Sand, and the beautiful progression in Angel.

 

Obviously there's a lot more, but you get the point...

 

Jimi was a AWESOME rhythm player. To get these parts right with just the right ease and feel... well it's an accomplishment.

 

guitplayer

I'm still "guitplayer"!

Check out my music if you like...

 

http://www.michaelsaulnier.com

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playing rhythm is probobly the most important and difficult part of guitar!

And it seems that as far as "lead" it should be important there also{good phraseing}.And is vibrato becomeing a lost art... southern Cow Hampshire LOL ..know what you mean ! I used to live in Methuen Mass.

 

Don

What? you mean I can take this block of fine swiss and make a song??...COOL!

 

Don

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Originally posted by guitplayer:

While most of my friends know that Hendrix was my favorite guitar player, they usually think it's because of his soloing skills. While I like his lead lines, it's the easiest part of his music to replicate.

 

But I respect his rhythm playing more... Song after song of inventive parts... some of my favorites include Little Wing, Castles Made of Sand, and the beautiful progression in Angel.

 

Obviously there's a lot more, but you get the point...

 

Jimi was a AWESOME rhythm player. To get these parts right with just the right ease and feel... well it's an accomplishment.

 

guitplayer

 

Reading thrrough this thread I also thought of Hendrix. Everybody talks about his phenomenal lead style, but when I think of him it's almost always of the complex rhythm style that he intermixed between solo lines(he was master of the "thumbed root" bar chord) " May This Be Love" is another beautiful example, not only of his rhythm style but of his unique and original songwriting. (No, I'm not a big Hendrix fan, but I am a HUGE Hendrix respector.) Townshend has always been my personal choice of rhythm avatar-supreme.

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Originally posted by art:

Ever have people come up to you and say something like "Hey, you play guitar, right? Do you play lead or rhythm?"

 

I usually respond "I'm the only guitar player in the band, I don't play either"...they wander off with a puzzled look...

 

Like I said on another thread...what pisses me off is some "lead" guitarists who just think they can do fills and solos and never bother to learn the chord structure of the song. I had one guy come up on a jam night and I tried to show him some chords and he said..."Oh, I'll just play fills". WHAT A HOSEBAG!!!

"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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A large percentage of my fav music features two guitars, bass, drums and vocals. Every part is extremely important. It seems in a lot of the club (cover) bands the rhythm player is the weakest player where it should be the other way around. Rhythm guitar anchors the song and makes it great or terrible. I also believe that most lead players could learn a huge heap from watching a 'real' rhythm player. When I'm playing lead I try to do a similar bit to the rhythm part up the neck in a different voicing, sometimes with it and sometimes counter to it. There's nothing like playing with another guitarist who is smacking the groove whether you're on rhythm or lead.
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Originally posted by guitplayer:

Song after song of inventive parts... some of my favorites include Little Wing, Castles Made of Sand, and the beautiful progression in Angel.

 

I always sucker students into learning Little Wing or Castles... "hey, you're not having to learn a solo, it's just a song...".

 

_Little Wing_ is such a leveler of the playing field. It really lets guitar players betray their ability; so many people play it stiff... there's so much subtlety to it. Hearing someone play the first two measures is the best snap shot of overall ability one can get I think.

 

------------------

New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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I remember the first time I saw the Grateful Dead live I was amazed by Bob Weir's playing. Lead Rhythm I though to myself. In the long jams HE often led the way into new theme's and often seemed to me to be the star of the song.

 

My other " lead rhythm" hero was Joe Pass. The whole Jazz Master thing of being able to seamlessly move from chordal melody lines to single note lines and back... with such ease and style... clean, imaginative, fast, inventive, melodic, filled with emotion.

 

If you've never heard of Joe Pass... go RIGHT NOW and pick up one of his cd's and check him out...

 

mmmmm... Joe Pass... tasty!!!

 

guitplayer

 

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http://www.mp3.com/acousticvoodoo

 

Guitar Forum CD Info

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000537.html

I'm still "guitplayer"!

Check out my music if you like...

 

http://www.michaelsaulnier.com

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I have interpereted your comments against what you have termed "lead guitar" as being evident of a similar attitude to the "Seattle" ethos of not practising and being down on players who take their music seriously enough to study or practise a number of hours a day. To my mind, this is simply a cop out by those who do not have the dedication to their art (for music, be it rock, blues, classical or even , country> is indeed an art and in my view the finest but I digress) to push themselves and wake up tomorrow a better player than they are today.

 

There comes a time in many a genre of musical performance when the writer of the music has felt it appropriate to allow one or more of the musicians chosen to interperet the piece and bring it to life, and to play what is known as a "solo". This can be done with a "rhythm solo" as you all seem to think, or the "soloist" can take off on a single note line.

 

To my mind a well crafted, tasteful and above all, expressive solo, is an essential element of the music. I challenge anyone who says otherwise to honestly question their technical skills, and they will usually find them somewhat lacking.

 

I can play whatever you can play. Can you play what I can play?

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Does this mean, like, playing a solo while jumping over the grand Canyon?

I was thinking of starting a new thread but it kinda relates here. IMO the whole punk ethos was an important cultural and political happening, but sometimes I HATE the effect it had on music. The Seattle attitude may be an example. It`s gotten to the point where people are afraid to actually PLAY anything, cause they`re worried about getting slapped with the big `P`-Pretentious. This term has gone from being a genuine accusation of insincerity, to a overused, throw-it-at-anyone-who can-play bunch of crap, and it has hit solo and lead playing alike. in fact, if you remember in `Amadeus` when they were trying to slag off

Mozart`s music, what did the court musician say? `too many notes`. if it was this year, he would have used the `P` word.

Oh look, he`s tuning his guitar-he must be one of THEM...

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Originally posted by evil_kinevil:

I have interpereted your comments against what you have termed "lead guitar" as being evident of a similar attitude to the "Seattle" ethos of not practising and being down on players who take their music seriously enough to study or practise a number of hours a day.

 

Then you need to read the posts again, because you have interpreted wrong. The comments were never "against lead guitar." Seems to me the view here is that many newer guitarists don't spend ENOUGH time practicing. They gloss-over the importance of good technical skills in rhythm guitar because they have a "it's just rhthym, it's not as important as the lead" attitude.

 

Originally posted by evil_kinevil:

To my mind a well crafted, tasteful and above all, expressive solo, is an essential element of the music.

 

Agreed... but the point was that rhythm is an essential element too, and it doesn't get enough recognition.

 

Originally posted by evil_kinevil:

I can play whatever you can play. Can you play what I can play?

 

Do you need a forklift to move your ego?

Scott

(just another cantankerous bastard)

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Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

_Little Wing_ is such a leveler of the playing field. It really lets guitar players betray their ability; so many people play it stiff... there's so much subtlety to it. Hearing someone play the first two measures is the best snap shot of overall ability one can get I think.

 

 

Hey, let's have a contest! Everybody record the first two measures of "Little Wing" and we'll post 'em on the net somewhere and compare... LOL...

 

Anyhow... I certainly agree that hardly anybody spends enough time working on their rhythm chops. I remember cracking up when I read that Hendrix wanted to strangle Clapton because he couldn't play rhythm. Players who sit there and play rinky-dink chords, obviously just killing time until their solo comes up, bore me to tears. But I expect most of you know that by now. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

And yep bvdd, Townshend's da man in my book, ditto Keith Richards and Lennon. There are more of us than you think. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

--Lee

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 07-09-2001 at 11:03 AM

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Anyhow... I certainly agree that hardly anybody spends enough time working on their rhythm chops. I remember cracking up when I read that Hendrix wanted to strangle Clapton because he couldn't play rhythm. Players who sit there and play rinky-dink chords, obviously just killing time until their solo comes up, bore me to tears. But I expect most of you know that by now.

 

And yep bvdd, Townshend's da man in my book, ditto Keith Richards and Lennon. There are more of us than you think.

 

--Lee

 

 

Thanx Lee,

It's nice to know that there's still respect out there for rhythm

playing, and you're right .. there's nothing more annoying than these guys

who just fooster around with fills (in every possible space no less) just waiting for their solo.

Your Hendrix/Clapton comment reminds me of how disappointed

I was to learn that BBKing is also ignorant of most of what's around him

and is totally focused on his soloing only. I also saw a "Tribute to

Stevie Ray" several years ago featuring: brother Jimmy, Clapton, BBKing,

B.Raitt, and 2 or 3 other major people. I was shocked that NONE of these

great players did any rhythm work and during the big climax they all played together - STILL with no one playing rhythm.

(I know .. they weren't there to support eachother, only to flash off.)

 

I feel better now.

Bill.

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quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by evil_kinevil:

I have interpereted your comments against what you have termed "lead guitar" as being evident of a similar attitude to the "Seattle" ethos of not practising and being down on players who take their music seriously enough to study or practise a number of hours a day.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Then you need to read the posts again, because you have interpreted wrong. The comments were never "against lead guitar." Seems to me the view here is that many newer guitarists don't spend ENOUGH time practicing. They gloss-over the importance of good technical skills in rhythm guitar because they have a "it's just rhthym, it's not as important as the lead" attitude.

 

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by evil_kinevil:

To my mind a well crafted, tasteful and above all, expressive solo, is an essential element of the music.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Agreed... but the point was that rhythm is an essential element too, and it doesn't get enough recognition.

 

 

 

Thanx Scott for clarifying that. This is not a post that's

AGAINST 'playing lead'. Since I play plenty of solos myself, that

would be a ridiculous position to take.

 

Trust me, I'm NOT trying to start a flame war with this but ..

maybe Evil's quick assessment that we WERE talking against soloing,

is an example of why guitarists can easily miss such a crucial part

of playing pop/rock guitar ..? For instance when I was 22, I had great

rhythm chops but since very few people around me cared about that,

I too started 'believing' the purpose of my chord work was to setup

my solos. Soon after that, every song I played was judged on the merit

of my lead .. not my rhythm. Of course I was a kid looking for approval ..and that REALLY makes it easy to lose yourself. All part of

growing up I guess.

Just an idea.

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To me, rhythm playing makes or breaks a guitar player. Brings back the old line some of us used here "did I mention I hate the term Lead Guitar?". Players in three piece bands know what I mean by that fo sho.
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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