Hip Hop

[Compact Diss]

Anybody have the tab for "In Da Club" by 50 Cent?? I knew I would get you guys with that one. OK, someone said they come here to talk about music; so let's go. Who thinks Hip Hop has any musical -can't think of the word...Does Hip Hop add something to society or the world? Compare and contrast Hip Hop and Rock and Roll (sounds like college huh)--think about it, now I know that the overwhelming majority of you guys will be against it as an art form comparable to the level of rock and roll. I disagree I think Hip Hop is it's own music with it's own culture, just like Blues, Metal, Folk-there is something out there for everyone. There are some great Producers in the rap world that would do wonders to some of the shit that's out there right now. Rock is great and there is some great Hip Hop. I'm not talking about the cars, money, hoes, bling bling aspect either. I'm talking about huimble rap that is just good, sounds good and makes you move. Just like Rock. Deny it.-There are rock songs out there that just make you move-same thing in Hip Hop--hip hop is just more dance orientated while rock seeks a more hardcore enviroment (moshing, slam dancing)---ok anyone want to battle?? Only kidding--let's talk about music---I think Dr. Dre is the best rap producer out there. He hires live musicians, all sorts of instruments-guitar, violin, all areas. He uses a harpischord, all kinds of bizarre sounds. So what if he can't play scales on a guitar-he is a composer, no one would shit on a classical composer of a film-who? Star Wars-John Williams, the guy is great-who makes better soundtracks? none to me, who makes better sounding rap? no one campared to Dre--all you rock guys that don't have anything good to say about Hip Hop, check out Eminem's Lose Yourself, or should I call it the way it will be called forever--the Oscar nominated song "Lose Yourself" by Eminem-I think he's going to win the category too-I think it is a first for Hip Hop having an Oscar nominated song. I'm just saying that 1. not all Hip Hop is bad. 2. not all Rock is good. 3. Hip Hop is music. It is not just beats and samples with "some guy talking". :evil:

[Felix_dup1]

Seems like recently, Dr. Dre's stuff is getting a little bit tired. I think I prefer Timbaaland instead. :thu:

[not Cereal]

hip hop, what dat? too broad a term. i dont consider public enemy to be hip hop. i think "bling bling" crap is hip hop. chuck D, terminator X, flava flav were all geniuses and had a real message in what they did. even now, PE music is still good and fresh.

[KHAN]

[quote] [b]I'm just saying that 1. not all Hip Hop is bad. 2. not all Rock is good. 3. Hip Hop is music. It is not just beats and samples with "some guy talking"[/b] [/quote]Can't argue with that. Although I get the feeling that is what you're looking for. ;)

[patrick_dont_fret]

I still maintain that rap and hiphop are two different styles. Rap is that stuff that eats your last nerve, all about money, girls, gold rings, crack, and all that other derogatory stuff. Hiphop actually deals with issues that need to be dealt with. Run-DMC and Sir Mix-a-lot, among many others, are hiphop-ers. I, personally, like hiphop. I cannot stand rap, because of all the derogatory, self-centered stuff surrounding it. It's all about women and money...how cliche is that? Maybe I'm ignorant (probably not), but I really can't stand it. Especially not with all those redundant "beats".

[Nawledge]

coaster, you got it backwards my man, but you still got it right.

[Timmy2000]

Why is it that black music is only accepted as having any value by the musical cognoscenti, 15 to 20 years after it's release date? Yes, some of those old school tracks are quality but it's my guess that there's plenty of good hip hop being made today if you care to look for it. I say "my guess" because I'm not a massive hip-hop fan so can't speak categorically. I just find it interesting that right from back in the 60's with blues revivalists through to Mo' Wax today with their fascination for early hip hop, musicians outside the field tend to only respect black music once it's culturally out of date.

[RobT]

[quote]Originally posted by patrick_dont_fret: [b]I still maintain that rap and hiphop are two different styles. Rap is that stuff that eats your last nerve, all about money, girls, gold rings, crack, and all that other derogatory stuff. Hiphop actually deals with issues that need to be dealt with. Run-DMC and Sir Mix-a-lot, among many others, are hiphop-ers.[/b][/quote]Patrick, I think that you have hit the nail on the head. There are many songs on corporate radio today that have a hip-hop feel and are sometimes mis-labeled as a rap song. Kinda like the difference between a (computer) hacker and a (computer) cracker. There is a difference.

[The Thrashole]

I'm personally not a genre type of guy. IT's too hard to classify someones art as far as i'm concerned. I do think every type of music has both great music and tripe. Right now my CD player has Cypress hill, Public enemy, cannibal corpse, GWAR, motzart, stevie ray vaughn, soundgarden, old metallica and Iron maiden. I Like to think of myself as a musical schizophrenic :D

[T.H.]

Seems everyone is losing the scope of things, HIP HOP, ROCK all of it is a business, and no CORPORATE honcho give a flying fuc... what you guys call and consider what's REAL or what has VALUE or MERIT, the concern is SALES, SALES, SALES Honestly, HIP HOP has lost it's way, one minute it thrives on being creative, then people bash it for transending and chaning, then it's right back to gully ass ryhming which people enjoy. But isnt that the same as: GREAT MOVIES, with SOCIAL COMMENTARY, GREAT STORY LINE, & PLOT, but people dont go see it and we say there arent any good movies out, but as soon as a SHOOT EM UP BANG, BANG DIE DIE, DIE we go see it, and still complain it wasnt violent enough. ROCK is even in the same category: I love that song um um um "DUDE, SHE FUCKIN HATES ME" I'm black, I love it, I can associate with it, but then again it may not be "ROCK ENOUGH" for my white friends, to CORNEY for my BLACK friends. -----whatever------------- MUSIC -- has been stifled, the generation of now doesnt understand or feel what GOOD music WAS, granted there are some hot beats (that's all they are-BEAT) 50-in the club, Eve-Satisfaction-by Dr. Dre--but that's all they are BEATS, no chords progression, chorus change, lead in, feed line, but I understand it's HIP HOP, but it stem from R&B, and my point being, since hip hop is a money factoring business --- everyone's cashing in -- R&B artist, ROCK artist -- look at KID ROCK --just blew the fuck up with a old ass HIP HOP hook, BAW DIDDA BAWW DA BANG DA BANG -- POP Artist N-SYNC w/Neptunes-GIRLFRIEND, LIMP BISKIT. Nine inch Nails are ill as hell (just had to say that) but overall -- HIP HOP is to damn easy, theres nothing hard about it --- but I'll stay true to the art and create, so that my music will have longevity as oppose to 6 months of "oooh that's hot" till somebody else comes along just my two cents. BLISS Just a Man CD (hopefully in store this summer)

[The Bear Jew]

Gee... I wonder how long before this thread degenerates to a racial discussion/argument/flame war/six-page diatribe-of-worthless-bandwidth-consumption-with-no-real-useful-outcome? I've never seen a hip-hop-related discussion here that didn't eventually do this. Can I try to sum this up now? Some people like hip-hop. Some don't. It's just like ice cream... or sushi... or whatever the fuck... some like it, some don't. Nobody's right. It's all subjective. UGH... Who fucking cares? Get over it already. For the record, I love any kind of music that speaks to me. This includes everything from Salsa to Tuvan Throat Singing.

[T.H.]

O.Kaaaaaaaaaaaay point well taken (some like it some dont) wish we could clarify music equipment the same way :D :D :D

[patrick_dont_fret]

[quote]Originally posted by RobT: [b] [quote]Originally posted by patrick_dont_fret: [b]I still maintain that rap and hiphop are two different styles. Rap is that stuff that eats your last nerve, all about money, girls, gold rings, crack, and all that other derogatory stuff. Hiphop actually deals with issues that need to be dealt with. Run-DMC and Sir Mix-a-lot, among many others, are hiphop-ers.[/b][/quote]Patrick, I think that you have hit the nail on the head. There are many songs on corporate radio today that have a hip-hop feel and are sometimes mis-labeled as a rap song. Kinda like the difference between a (computer) hacker and a (computer) cracker. There is a difference.[/b][/quote]Si, senor.

[Jeebus]

I prefer trip hop myself.

[Nawledge]

first of all CMDN you just did it, only you. that is self fulfilling prophecy, so you can't complain when some one reponds to some racial post that you posted, that doesn't make any sense. secondly, its not as simple as some people like hiphop and some people don't, if it was then you shouldn't have even posted because either you like it or you don't (i unno) but what you you are doing is missing the point of the direction the thread is going in. just because somebody is rapping doesn't mean hiphop music is being played. to disregard this fact is to disrespect the artform. now you don't disrepect the any other artform do you, probably not. so don't distrepect this one. those artist that T.H. listed are not hiphop artist, they are rap artist -------------------------------------------------) T.H.: MUSIC -- has been stifled, the generation of now doesnt understand or feel what GOOD music WAS, granted there are some hot beats (that's all they are-BEAT) 50-in the club, Eve-Satisfaction-by Dr. Dre--but that's all they are BEATS, no chords progression, chorus change, lead in, feed line, but I understand it's HIP HOP, but it stem from R&B, and my point being, since hip hop is a money factoring business --- everyone's cashing in -- R&B artist, ROCK artist -- look at KID ROCK --just blew the fuck up with a old ass HIP HOP hook, BAW DIDDA BAWW DA BANG DA BANG -- POP Artist N-SYNC w/Neptunes-GIRLFRIEND, LIMP BISKIT ------------------------------------------------) eve 50cent dr dre kidrock the neptunes n-sync limp bizkit not one of these artist are hiphop artist, and dre hasn't been making hiphop music since the 80's. until you understand what hiphop is then this debate will continue to come up because people are not paying attention to what they are saying, either through misunderstanding, or disrespect. HipHop is the Difference between "GrandMaster Flash and the Furious 5" and "The Sugar Hill Gang", the only thing hiphop about them was that chorus. a hiphophippyhophiphoppyhippy- whatever. the hiphop present is eluding you, but its your own fault. everyone knows the diff between the rolling stones and avril Lavringe, every one knows the diff between the sexpistols and green day, everyone knows the diff between kenny g and miles davis, but for some reason last year Jennifer Lopez got the reward for the hiphop album of the year, "What the f*ck!!!" and she had the nerve to take the award saying "duh, i'm from the bronx so I'll accept this award", maybe it was because she had JaRule on her album, he's not a hiphop artist either so go figure. you respect the blues you respect rock and roll you respect jazz you respect R&B you respect punk you respect d'n'bass you respect house you respect classical you respect reaggae you respect Salsa you respect Tuvan [b]SO RESPECT HIPHOP [/b] --even if you have no respect for Cash Money, or Master P, or Nelly... because that sh*t is [b]not hiphop.[/b] and if you can't respect it, then at least learn what the hell it is so that you can disrespect it accurately. :eek: once again here is a list of some, play these along side the list by T.H. so that you will know the difference. ----------------- GrandMaster Flash and the Furious 5 Dialated Peoples Dan the Automator Blackalicous DJ shadow Anti-PoP-Consortium MR. Lif Prefuse 73 Dose one Clouddead Akrobatic MC Esoteric and DJ7L RJD2 Company FLow MosDef (songs with non-racist comments only' f*ckn bigot) Talib Kweli (same advice) Common (whack!!!!) MC Paul Barmon The Roots DJ Krush EL-P Cannibal Ox Aesop Rock Sage Francis Northern States RunDmc The Beat Junkies Acey Alone Latryx The Hierogliphics Deltron 3030 (Del) Prince Paul the wu tang clan Jurassic 5 I could give you a longer list but you probably won't use this one.

[Felix_dup1]

Honestly, the difference between Rap and Hip-Hop at this point seems like semantics to me. If I'm ignorant then please, someone, define the two for me.

[Compact Diss]

Nawledge you know about Akrobatik all the way out there?

[Nawledge]

of course I know about akro, I listen to hiphop. felix with your last question you just wasted all the time i took for my post. come on man, what do you want me to do come over to your house and play those cd's for you?, make a little effort please... :rolleyes: is every song that has someone singing on it a rock song, gospel, the blues, opera, pop, or jazz? of course not. so why would you think that every song that has somebody rapping on it is hiphop? wipe the radio crust from your eyes man, that song with bob dylan rapping on it is closer to hiphop than nelly, jarule/j-lo, or puffdaddy. semantics my ass you just haven't learned yet.

[RobT]

[quote]Originally posted by Nawledge: [b]that song with bob dylan rapping on it is closer to hiphop than nelly, jarule/j-lo, or puffdaddy. semantics my ass you just haven't learned yet.[/b][/quote]Best darn explaination yet... :thu:

[G. Ratte]

[quote] SO RESPECT HIPHOP --even if you have no respect for Cash Money, or Master P, or Nelly... because that sh*t is not hiphop. [/quote]Nawledge-I get your point and know your references but have to take issue with you on this one. I'm from Texas and did lots of indie hiphop work there and had to learn all about the Houston/syrup/DJ Screw sound as well as the 'Nawlins & Memphis bounce No Limit/Cash Money sound. I LOVE THAT STUFF! The bounce sound is all sequenced, no sampling and it's got the most advanced drum programming in pop music. There are chord progressions and all sorts of melodic movement going on too. I think Mannie Fresh is one of the best producers in hiphop, next to Timbaland. Above the Neptunes. But check it out... this stuff is from the Dirty South, it ain't PC and it's full of gangsta tales and drawlin'. It's listened to by guys that roll to the corner store in their ratty house slippers for a 40 and a Philly. It's also funky as hell. The stuff on your 'good hiphop' list is mostly a white college student scene. (Rawkus, Def Jux) The 'backpacker' crowd. Rockin' the coffee house. It goes over well with your women's studies major girlfriend back at the dorm. The guys that go, "Oh yes, I like _SOME_ hiphop" and point to their little row of Tribe Called Quest CDs. Right next to the Bob Marley "Legend" CD. Or the bedroom DJs, buying all the new vinyl on Tuesdays that never sees the inside of a club. 'cuz what's getting banged on the streets? Jay-Z, Ludacris. I think you're making a class distinction, and I'm calling you on it. Field vs. house, eh?

[Nawledge]

naw actualy it's not a class distinction, if you know my refferences then you know about acey alone freestyle fellowship and the like, this is not some white college kid music, I don't give a fuck about what white people think or black people for that matter, if college kids listen to it then thats good, they are suppose to be learning anyway, I know all about mannie fresh/ timbalands production styles and formulas, means nothing to me. timbaland is a God in europe because the trippy sycncopation of those whack ass beats reminds them of drum and bass so much that they love it, not me. mannie fresh is just gangsta beats without samples and more synth oriented sounds rather than traditional, but then again not me. I like shit like Madlib, defjux, and real mcs that flow with content, even if its about streetlife, mobb deep listen closely its poetry. Going to the corner store in slippers and talking gangsta shit doesn't make it hiphop, its rap music, and I agree with you even though I don't feel it I recognize skills and mannie, timbaland, the neptunes, and even missy elliot have skills, but that's not hiphop. Listen to some dj premier thats hiphop, not outkast, thats rap/soul/funk, listen to some kool keith, some ugly duckling or mc insight, thats hiphop. listen to some last poets thats hiphop. what have you got against white college kids anyway, they would probably be in the club if the club was playing some hiphop instead of that jay-z and Ludacris crap, rockafella doesn't have one hiphop artist on the whole label except for MC freeway and thats maybe, you want some hiphop from texas listen to some old scarface, thats hiphop.

[Felix_dup1]

[quote]Originally posted by Nawledge: [b]of course I know about akro, I listen to hiphop. felix with your last question you just wasted all the time i took for my post. come on man, what do you want me to do come over to your house and play those cd's for you?, make a little effort please... :rolleyes: is every song that has someone singing on it a rock song, gospel, the blues, opera, pop, or jazz? of course not. so why would you think that every song that has somebody rapping on it is hiphop? wipe the radio crust from your eyes man, that song with bob dylan rapping on it is closer to hiphop than nelly, jarule/j-lo, or puffdaddy. semantics my ass you just haven't learned yet.[/b][/quote]Nawledge, I read and understood your post. Maybe I didn't communicate my point correctly. It looks to me like you're making a genre distinction based on your perceived quality of the music, rather than a distinction in style. My point would be that bad Rock music or cheesy Rock music is still Rock music. Some people may debate whether some of it is Rock or Pop, but by the time you get to splitting hairs about it, it's just semantics. That's why I was interested in what anyone had to offer as far as definitions.

[Compact Diss]

:cry:

[The Bear Jew]

[quote] first of all CMDN you just did it, only you. that is self fulfilling prophecy, so you can't complain when some one reponds to some racial post that you posted, that doesn't make any sense. secondly, its not as simple as some people like hiphop and some people don't, if it was then you shouldn't have even posted because either you like it or you don't (i unno) but what you you are doing is missing the point of the direction the thread is going in. just because somebody is rapping doesn't mean hiphop music is being played. to disregard this fact is to disrespect the artform. now you don't disrepect the any other artform do you, probably not. so don't distrepect this one. those artist that T.H. listed are not hiphop artist, they are rap artist [/quote]Nawledge... Maybe you don't recognize me. I've posted INNUMERABLE times in defense of hip-hop. I'm a huge proponent of the genre and have been listening to it since 1980 or so. I've played and produced hip-hop records. You don't need to school me about "respecting" hip-hop. However, every single thread I've ever seen here that even remotely mentions hip-hop eventually degenerates into a racial debate that leads nowhere. Personally, I find this boring as fuck. I haven't ever anyone's mind changed... rather, people become more polarized and antagonistic on the subject. Nothing is accomplished except the consumption of space. It's boring. That's why I posted in this thread... to point out that this is what always seems to happen here. When this eventually happens, you can look back at my original post and recognize the truth in it. I'd really love to see an intelligent discussion on this topic, but I seriously doubt that it will happen. I'd love to be suprised... I really DO think the answer is simple -- either you like it or you don't. Either way, in an ideal world, even hip-hop's detractors would agree that it is music and that it has value. That almost never happens, since people tend to be bull-headed and dense about this kind of thing.

[CP]

You know, it seems like every month we get one of these posts about hip hop and rap. To try and simplify a complex question Hip-hop is a catch-all term that refers more to a black cultural movement than to a specific musical style. Rap is a musical component of hip-hop. Just like "Street R&B" (Mary Jane Blige, Lauren Hill, Genuine, R Kelly, etc.) Too many people confuse hip hop to mean just rap. Rap is hip-hop, but hip-hop is not rap, it so much more. You cannot separate the two, and say one artist is rap and the other is hip hop. When the music first started in NYC in the 70's, it was called "rhyming". Man, I grew up in NYC, listening to the likes of Woody Wood, Cool Herc, Funky Four, Treacherous Three, Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five, Kurtis Blow, etc. . . Rap took off in the mid 70's when I was in high school. It has now evolved into something greater. There are so many different styles of rap music that you can't neatly place artists into groups. Like Rock and Roll, Rap started out as an musical expression and turned into a movement. Rock became bigger than the Beatles and the Who, and the Rolling Stones. It became how young people spoke, dressed, wore their hair, etc. It became a culture that the music was a part of. Same with Rap. Rap has evolved into Hip Hop, a culture where young people of all races get to express themselves in how they dress, speak, etc. Nawledge, the distinction that you are trying to make is between "Rapper" and "Emcee". That is the terminology that I hear from the hip hop community out here in NYC. Mos Def, Jay Z, Nas, Rakim, those are Emcees. Nelly and etc. are considered to be rappers. I hope I made sense. Peace.

[Nawledge]

[b]CMDN [/b] of course I recognize you man, I meant no offense and I've read all of your post on this forum regarding hiphop and rapmusic, the only thing that I am saying to you is that, and if you read this whole thread you will see, no one is talking about race in that way yet but you, and gratte (not sure yet). I agree with you, the topic usualy degenerates into some hate mongering, so what! we don't have to aim our focus there, or be obstacles in the conversation and instead of talking about the subject matter your encouraging those people who would rather turn this into a hate discussion into doing so. I don't mind talking about race, but that is not what this is about and I'd like to be able to continue having a discussion about the difference between RapMusic and HipHop music, but you act like we shouldn't talk about it and like we should put a plug in it. How can we have the intelligent discussion that you would like to see if we just stop talking? [b]CP[/b] , I think you have an understanding of some of the specifics but I don't agree with your assesment of what they mean. First I want to say that talking about hiphop once a month doesn't cause me any stress, we talk about rock every day here, it doesn't stress me out either. I disagree about hiphop being a catch all term, its'just the opposite. especialy when it comes to black culture, that is why people will tell you that lauryn hill is hiphop but whitney houston is not, and jennifer lopez is not even though they've got rapping on their records. The radio stations would like you to believe that everything they play is connected with hiphop. A few years ago they would say that they play rap and r&b, and they could tell that people were not feeling it as much as calling it hiphop, so now when a radio station announces station id they always say " the play hiphop and r&b" its just marketing. if you subscribe to hiphop being a culture thats fine, but that does not mean that there is not a musical artform by the same name. there is. I'm a hiphop artist myself, and we are well difined no more or less than any other musical artform and anything but a catch all term. the problem we face is that do to mainly social vibrations alot of people want to lump us together with anything that has rapping or even a turntable in it. well that is just a down right foolish outlook to have. the record labels and radio stations are using our name for credit but esentialy it is fraud, because they don't play or support our music or what we stand for. everybody on the list that I named gets hardly any airplay in this country, and here in los angeles they get none. if you do hear them on the radio consider yourself having a good day cause you got lucky. the same difference that you are describing as only a diff between rappers and emcees encompaces much more than that it encompaces not just the microphone, but the music, the content, the roots and purpose, surrounding the artform as well as the artform itself. hiphop is a complete musical entity just like jazz or calypso. those people that gratte spoke of up above, are not hiphop artist and they do not go into the studio to make hiphop records. you grew up listening to those hiphop groups, you should be able to tell the difference between the ones you you listed and the groups of that time like the sugar hill gang. Hiphop is not a black thing hiphop is not B Boyism hiphop is not dj culture here is the much anticipated definition of hiphop and this is how you can tell if a group is a hiphop group or not. [b]hiphop music serves the MC and the MC serves the message[/b] . the message is that of struggle, not unlike jazz, and not to be confused with the messages of glorifying street life , drugs, sex, and money why do you think DJ shadow is hiphop? he doesn't rap, but his music is not about the music, it is about the vocals in his music. that is what his djing is supporting. listen closely to the snippets of vocals he is using records to introduce and what message they are trying to convey to you. that's hiphop, not every person djing on two turntables is doing the same thing, and every dj is not a hiphop dj. and every rapper is not a hiphop rapper (mc), this shouldn't be that hard to grasp. every song with a guitar in it is not the same type of music either. in essence there is an overt obvious imistakable clear difference between the rapping, the music, the methods/craft/artform, and the content as well as purpose between rapmusic and HipHop music. just take the pepsi challenge and you will see. HipHop is that person in the apollo theatre that listens to the white women on stage singing and if she can sing good gives her a standing ovation regardless of her color of skin, Rap music is everybody else in the theatre. RapMusic is Exploitation, the glorification of problems without giving a solution. the favorite bylines of rapmusic are "I'm gonna get mine" and "same ol thang everyday all day and nothings gonna change" Hiphop is about promoting the spirit and the education of growth, while Rapmusic never wants to leave the ghetto hiphop knows the purpose of the ghetto and does not put it on a pedastal. we rap different, we rap about different things, and our methods and music are different than rap music, how many more differences do you need. play any of those artist I listed next to those you hear on the radio, the proofs in your ears. [b]Gratte[/b] don't be disillusioned by my girlfriends santa monica address, I know more about pimps hoes and gangstas than you think, suffice it to say that my family is partially responsible for the existence of crips in cleaveland ohio and tampa florida, but I don't flow about that, and even if I did it wouldn't make it hiphop.

[CP]

Nawledge, I can totally respect your response. All I can say is that I hope we agree to disagree. I too am in the industry, mostly hip hop music. I've had this conversation with many in the industry, some famous and some not so famous. Some pioneers, some new, and they basically fall along the lines of our posts. It's just that the language they used was "MC - rapper" as opposed to "rapper- hip hop". Must be a NY thing. I never said that because music has rap in it, it makes it hip hop. Example, Kid Rock, J-Lo. I also never said that R&B was hip hop, example Whitney Houston. However, what they label as "street R&B" is considered hip hop. Lauren Hill, R Kelly, etc. Anyway, as I see it you are making a distinction between good rap as opposed to bad rap. Do understand, that your definition of hip hop is just that, its yours. You talk to ten different people in the industry and you might get ten different responses. However, I was at the Hip Hop Summit here in NY last year and saw all aspects of the genre there, those you consider rap and those you consider hip hop. When I say catch-all, I don't mean every thing with a hint of rap in it. I mean those considered rappers, djs, mcs and so forth. When you start separating into groups then you take away the diverse nature or the art form. No, I don't agree with the disrespectful artists, but they still constitute hip hop. However, like you, I believe that too many dismiss rap as not being a true art form. Anyway, I feel you and respect your opinion. Peace.

[The Bear Jew]

[quote] CMDN of course I recognize you man, I meant no offense and I've read all of your post on this forum regarding hiphop and rapmusic, the only thing that I am saying to you is that, and if you read this whole thread you will see, no one is talking about race in that way yet but you, and gratte (not sure yet). I agree with you, the topic usualy degenerates into some hate mongering, so what! we don't have to aim our focus there, or be obstacles in the conversation and instead of talking about the subject matter your encouraging those people who would rather turn this into a hate discussion into doing so. I don't mind talking about race, but that is not what this is about and I'd like to be able to continue having a discussion about the difference between RapMusic and HipHop music, but you act like we shouldn't talk about it and like we should put a plug in it. How can we have the intelligent discussion that you would like to see if we just stop talking? [/quote]I see your point. It just bugs me, that's all. I hate seeing an intelligent discussion get sidetracked. I probably should have just kept quiet. I sometimes just run out of energy as a run around trying to encourage open-mindedness and tolerance. As for the difference between hip-hop and rap... well, I always thought it was easy. Rapping is what a hip-hop MC does. Hip-hop is a culture and lifestyle as well as a type of music. There are subdivisions and subgenres, but that's the basic jist. I see your point about stylistically separating rap music from hip-hop music, but I have to say definitions on this tend to vary pretty wildly depending on individual tastes. Too bad there's not a "hip-hop bible." If there WAS to be a hip-hop bible, I think KRS*1 should write it with Chuck D and Africa Bambatta.

[Nawledge]

[b]If there WAS to be a hip-hop bible, I think KRS*1 should write it with Chuck D and Africa Bambatta.[/b] I guess I get excited over this issue too. the artist that fall under my definition of hiphop are struggling for space and time in an industry that doesn't want to hear it. it's very sad and it makes me sick that they value selling 40's, beepers, and rimms over everything else in life. [b]Cp[/b] see where i'm from we call lauryn hill hiphop, but r. kelly rapmusic but anyway, you are absolutely right about it just being my opinion, so instead of agreeing to disagree with you I'll just agree because its all music anyway, and the labels are really just for people who need them, which I don't but I use them because the industry has completely abandoned the type of music I do and they care nothing about the poison they proliferate, so I always try to make the distinction clear. I respect you and your opinions also. I think we're safe CMDN :thu:

[G. Ratte]

Nawledge- I think you're making a qualitative distinction. But you've gotta relax. People like what they like and whatnot, and it's best to not worry about labels and this & that. It's really hard to quantify something as subjective and therefore baggage-loaded as music. I respect and can appreciate all music, I would hope. If people don't, it's too bad for them 'cuz they're missing out. My little racial/class remark at the end 'bout "house vs. field n*" was referencing the divide amongst the Black community which parallels what you were talking about, I think. But I don't think it should. Fer'instance, I know DJ Premier's sound is bang-on the essence of hiphop, RZA too for a long time. But I can't say I enjoy too many of their tunes, as I think they're limited by their reliance on samples. RZA's trying to break out, but I haven't been impressed by the results yet. Right now, some of my favorite albums are the latest Nate Dogg and UGK. UGK doesn't sound anything like Premier... are they not hiphop? I don't know by your definition they would be, but so what. I dig 'em, I'm happy. Or, say, that first big Bone Thugs & Harmony album, _1999 Eternal_. What would you call that? Hugely influential in the South, especially with the Hispanic rap scene for some reason. I don't know how many Mexican kids I've recorded who do that double-time singsongy stuff, tons. I like that style a lot too. So maybe you'd call that stuff "rap over electro-funk"... in which case Afrika Bambaataa isn't hiphop either. Maybe it's the baggage where people such as yourself are thinking "hiphop=good, rap music=bad". Personally, I think it's best to widen your idea of "hiphop" or just not worry about it and appreciate skills no matter what the style. I know a lot of West Coast people are dismayed by, say, The Egyptian Lover being ignored by all the more recent press fawning over old skool NYC stuff. His _On The Nile_ album is a classic, hands down. The music is great, his raps are... freaky... but it didn't have the Sugar Hill house band doing covers of disco hits on it... so it ain't hiphop? I had a point somewhere. Rock on. Uh, and don't dismiss the other sounds, 'cuz you'll be missing out. Think I'm done.