Tedster Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 A good portion of this forum goes to "Cool pedals", "Favorite amps"...performance related stuff. But a recent post came up asking for truss rod advice, and I figure there are a lot of things that could be discussed in a "Mr. Fixit" thread...refretting, mods, refinishing...other repair oriented stuff. Any tech gurus out there that would like to share their knowledge? I for one would like to know a bit more about refinishing. Any takers??? "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosespappy Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Tedster, I've done some finishing.It's like anything else tho. Tons of q's. Do you want to duplicate original finish, or go for something unique? Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Turner Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Well, the basic rule on refinishing is "Don't"....unless the instrument is really gone. At least in the vintage market, a re-fin is a big dollar discount unless it's a vintage re-fin! And even then..... I've got a '38 Super 400 in (I'm going to make a new bridge with a piezo pickup laminated into it), and it was refinished by Gibson "in the '50's", as the story goes. And it looks right to me. But that guitar would be worth thousands more if it had its original finish on it, even if it were in considerably worse condition. I restored a really beat D'Angelico a number of years ago, and I used only shellac and French polish on the finish. Why? Because it made the guitar really look great....but was completely reversable should anyone in the future want the guitar in it's fully original beat-up condition. French polish (really extremely thinned out shellac) is compatible with just about everything, yet can be stripped without affecting the underlying finish. End result: restoration, not refinishing. What is the goal of the refin? To look authentic? To put a cool modern look on the guitar? To replace the finish on a guitar which is so trashed it has no value as is? You've got to answer those questions before starting any kind of re-fin job. It comes down to "Why?" As for Dan, don't forget that he has a salary from Stew Mac, and he hasn't had to make a living as a guitar repairman in a long time. He does jobs and writes them up which none of us who do this for a living could afford to do! Don't get me wrong...Dan's brilliant at it, but spending 40 hours making a refinished Tele look like it's 45 years old is just not "real world." At least not here in 2001! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Originally posted by Rick Turner: ...but spending 40 hours making a refinished Tele look like it's 45 years old is just not "real world." At least not here in 2001! ROTFL, Rick. I worked at Mars Music in Nashville the past few years. I laughed myself silly when I examined the price tag on a Fender guitar with the "aged" look finish. A new guitar with a dented, beat up finish that sells for near $2k... If you can sell that you REALLY know how to find P.T. Barnum's suckers. And just think, with one born every minute, you get 60 future customers every hour, 1440 every day... Somebody STOP me before I buy up a bunch of Fender standard's and throw 'em in the clothes dryer with some sand! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Somehow these guys won't pay top dollar for a REAL vintage instrument that looks that way. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif ------------------ Neil Reality: A few moments of lucidity surrounded by insanity. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted June 20, 2001 Author Share Posted June 20, 2001 No, I wouldn't refinish a vintage instrument. I might change the finish of a new, or relatively new one to a custom color, though. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott from MA Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Well... I don't do many "refinishes" but since I build guitars, I end up doing a lot of first-time finishes. There's a lot of products out there (ReRanch, MasterGel, etc...) that make finishing a lot easier than the traditional method. I also happen to be a real sucker for Tung Oil, which is really simple, and really beautiful. Scott (just another cantankerous bastard) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Well, I now know what NOT to do.... I had a beat to hell Epiphone acoustic that a friend gave me after he found it in the trash. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif I fixed it up enough so it was quite playable, and sounded O.K. Then I decided to paint it. Ford Engine Blue, as I recall... Boy, did that thing sound like CRAP after that!!! Steve (stickin' with solidbodies...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosespappy Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Lacquers(not to be mistaken for LIquers), either nitro-cellulose,acrylic, or early pitch based resins, have a long history and high degree of use.Enamels dry from the bottom out, lacquers from the top down. Lacquers have microscopic pores caused by solvent evaporation. I do like the look of the oils, deft has a cool product.... if I was gonna customize one fer Ted, I'd most likely go with lacquer, due to the infinitely cool airbrush work that is possible with this media, but also it's great repair-ability. Angus as Alfred E. Nueman... behind the wheel of a muscle car, Marge S. in a hot red micro mini, leaning over the hood.......Marge hands a greezer Homie a shake...... oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh......... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaacklat!!!!!!!! Er-a-yeah, something like that! R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 Years ago I worked with a luthier and learned a bunch about solid body construction. Finishes were never my forte tho. On all of my guitars I used nitro lacquer cos it crystalizes over time and enhances tone. Thing is, the old finishes weren't osha approved and it was my understanding that they phased out nitro in favor of water based lacquers. Who knows about availability of nitro lacquer these days? -David http://www.garageband.com/artist/MichaelangelosMuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott from MA Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 Yeah, DC... OSHA has made it very difficult for companies to use nitrocellulose here in the USA, which is one of the reasons Fender finishes their guitars in Mexico (those clever bastards!). You can still get nitro for personal use though... check through Stew-Mac. Scott (just another cantankerous bastard) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Turner Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 Well, two things....I don't necessarily go with the lay person's belief that lacquer has magical properties. You want a great finish for tone, it's gotta be French polish. Companies went to lacquer in the 1920s because it was cheaper to do. But if you compare any guitar finished in the '20s or '30s or even later with guitars done with French polish in the 1890s....like Martins, the shellac finish not only sounds better, but it holds up better with time. It's more delicate, but in the really long haul, it doesn't do all those nasty things lacquer does. The solvents in lacquer (mostly acetone) have been downgraded recently as far as smog production. Getting good lacquer is not a big deal unless you're spraying drums a month. Modern spray guns are a help too. I've been trying to talk SCGC into switching to HVLP guns for about four years now, and they just did. I got a call from one of the guys there asking what I thought their increase in transfer efficiency should be, I thought they should gain about 30%. It turned out I was practically spot on; he didn't believe that they had gone from spraying 3 gallons of lacquer in a day down to 2 gallons......That translates into less Volatile Organic Compounds up the stack, and that means they can keep spraying nitro as long as they want to. I suspect they, along with practically everyone else, will eventually go to polyester for the same reasons everyone went to nitro in the 1920s. Done right, it is a fantastic finish, much faster to do than lacquer, with much lower VOCs, and it is much more "bench friendly" than nitro. Done thin, I think it sounds as good as nitro, and I bet 50 years from now, the guitar finishes will be in much better shape. I doubt that nitro is good for much more than 100 years.....it just gets worse and worse as the plasticizers evaporate out slowly over the years. Eventually it gets so brittle that it will just flake off. Water based finishes are promising, but not "there" yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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