jef5f Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 Credit for songwriting simply belongs the lyrical author and the author of the melody. Arranging credits is what the mad guitarist is actually arguing about. Point blank. He needs to get a life. Psalm 33:3 The best instrument you have, is your heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 You're missing the point, jef5f. None of the songwriting credit is worth a damn if you ain't getting paid for it! If the lyric author & melody author are smart they give the arranger a share of the credit at this point in time. Would you rather claim credit for a song which, because it never gets heard, produces zero royalties? Or would you give the guy a credit in order to get the deal you've been striving for? If your priority is to abrogate all credit to yourself perhaps YOU need to get a life. There's plenty of time AFTER you've made it big to squabble about such ego-driven nonsense... PEACE Originally posted by jef5f: Credit for songwriting simply belongs the lyrical author and the author of the melody. Arranging credits is what the mad guitarist is actually arguing about. Point blank. He needs to get a life. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK_dup2 Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 Simon, My apologies for this late post. I understand your crazy life. How are ya Boy-o.. My thoughts on your first post - (please understand I have not read all of the follow-up due to time) Management should get involved and straighten this out. It always seems that these singer songwriter types cannot concieve that anyone else can be responsible for tooling their original idea and making it something special. In addition, if he or she can't be collaborative with the people taking them from point A to B then they should be dropped. Its seems that very few musicians out there can be a Lennon. Sounds like this singer fellow needs to have his attitude adjusted by letting this industry teach him the harsh lessons of Greed and In-flexability. ( one of those lessons being obscurity). Shoot me a email man. Let catch up! BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg music Posted May 9, 2001 Author Share Posted May 9, 2001 Yo BK Nice to hear from ya man... I'll shoot you an email in the next couple of days.... Later Simon ...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg music Posted May 13, 2001 Author Share Posted May 13, 2001 OK so here's the upshot of the meeting between the band, the management and my humble self... In truth it was a very long very tedious and a very heated debate. I ended up playing Soloman, as it was the least damaging aspect for me and the bands long term relationship. We played thru the tracks one by one and I left his riffs in on the first listen and muted them for the second pass.. The singer at this stage said that he felt that the songs were just as strong and got flattened by the management who agreed with the guitarist that without his riffs the tunes were just not in the same league. The singer then voiced the opinion that we should ditch the guitarist and have someone else play the parts, which brought up the whole issue of copyright. After a lengthy discussion with the managements lawyers, it was decided that there may well be a case for the guitarist to sue if his riffs were used, on the basis that they were so very strong and had a signature about them which was unmistakably his!! After a lot of further argument I pointed out the facts of the business and warned them that if the label got wind of this whole situation then the likelyhood was that the deal would be suspended and they would sit on the proverbial shelf for the duration. This seemed to bring the singer somewhat to his senses. He asked for the tunes to be played again with and without the guitarists riffs.... after a couple of listens he turned to the guitarist and said 'I cannot say I like this situation and I have written the melody and the lyric but I can hear the contribution you have made' I asked them both if the tunes were changed in anyway after the singer had roughed them out to the band. Even before the guitarist had had a chance to reply the singer chimed in that they were very often modified in rehearsal as a result of the guitarists imput... Well that was pretty much the end of it... Even Joel the singer couldn't climb outta that one. After a bit more discussion, not argument, it was decided that the guitarist would recieve both a credit and a 30% royalty on each and every song that we record..... We go back to work on the Album on Monday.... Yippee http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif So this one has a good ending and imho the right one. I'm sure that there will still be the occasional flair ups but the record will get made and a very talented bunch of people will get their shot. Thanks to you all for your imput on this one, I greatly appreciate the fact that your collective thoughts have really enabled me to see the wood for the trees and make sense outta a very confused issue. Thanks Simon http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveMusic Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 That's cool, Simon. Who suggested 30%? How did that dialogue go? ------------------ Duke > > > [ Live! ] < < < Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 Hey Simon... Let us know when the project's finished so we can pick up a copy. You've got us all curious now. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 Simon Said: >>>OK so here's the upshot of the meeting between the band, the management and my humble self... ..................... http://www.sonic.net/~goblin/9beavis2.jpg ................... UH...HUH...HUH...HUH...HUH...YOU SAID UPSHOT...HUH..HUH... Way To Go Mate!!!! http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/cwm/spiny.gif This message has been edited by KHAN on 05-13-2001 at 08:09 PM So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 Sounds good, and fair...I hope neither guitarist or singer holds resentment over any of it...if the group is successful they should both see enough money to happy about the situation...If they aren't successful they'll probably forget about it and/or hopefully be able to laugh about the whole thing. BUT...these guys have got to figure out they're either in this together or they fail...I liken it to Basketball (yeah I'm watching the playoffs http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif)...TEAM SPORT...you can't win if you don't work together. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted May 13, 2001 Share Posted May 13, 2001 Great outcome, Simon. If the band is lucky, they realize this is the best solution for them, regardless of whether the law really would have sided with one or the other. THAT lesson doesn't stop at royalties and credits. Sometimes the letter of a law, and the reality it's called on to address, don't tell the whole story. Lennon & McCartney got it right 37 years ago when they agreed to put both names on everything. It served them well, and may be responsible for their continued success. Now, if they could only have justified putting Ringo's name on some of it... who know's? Neil It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: they fail...I liken it to Basketball (yeah I'm watching the playoffs . This is how busy I am presently: outside of a few minutes to look in here, I haven't had time to watch any of the playoffs - so I'm asking by proxy: are the Raptors still in it? Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosespappy Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 Simon, Blessed are the peace makers. Nuff said. uhh now that you've inherited the world, I don't suppose you could lay your hands on the family homestead in Scotland for me? Hehehehe! Way to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 Hey Chip, Yeah the Raptors are still in it even though they lost yesterday...series tied 2-2. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg music Posted May 14, 2001 Author Share Posted May 14, 2001 Originally posted by LiveMusic: That's cool, Simon. Who suggested 30%? How did that dialogue go? Hey Duke The 30% was actually suggested by me!! I split the song into an arrangers percentage and a sorta overide for the hooks, 10% for arrangement and 20% based upon the fact that I treat his imput as a contribution towards the melody of the song.... Can't say the singer was overly impressed to start with but I am sure at the end of our first day that he has come to value the guitarist a great deal more since he went thru his own pain barrier. Simon http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg music Posted May 14, 2001 Author Share Posted May 14, 2001 Originally posted by rosespappy: Simon, Blessed are the peace makers. Nuff said. uhh now that you've inherited the world, I don't suppose you could lay your hands on the family homestead in Scotland for me? Hehehehe! Way to go! Rick It would be my pleasure, anytime bro you let me know and we'll help y'all where we can..... Peacemakers huh, I feel quite regal http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Take care Simon ...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 14, 2001 Share Posted May 14, 2001 Simon, Sounds like you did a great job as "mediator" and that's awesome that the singer was able to see the light of day. It's a shame sometimes that people will take everything they can get, or that a monetary value must be put on something/someone in order for others to see the worth in it, but sometimes that's just how it is. Glad the dude seems to be growing up. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg music Posted May 14, 2001 Author Share Posted May 14, 2001 Originally posted by Lee Flier: Simon, Sounds like you did a great job as "mediator" and that's awesome that the singer was able to see the light of day. It's a shame sometimes that people will take everything they can get, or that a monetary value must be put on something/someone in order for others to see the worth in it, but sometimes that's just how it is. Glad the dude seems to be growing up. --Lee Thanks Lee Yep it sure seems that way... lets hope it continues, I love the stuff and I'd hate to see the Album ditched over an attitude problem.. Time will tell. Simon http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted May 16, 2001 Share Posted May 16, 2001 The practical,situational aspect of this thread is over but here I come anyway! This info should already be common knowledge so excuse me if I state the obvious. (1)There are three kinds of music copyrights :compositions, recordings & arrangements.These are totally independent of one another. (2)If you record someone else's song, you (or the record co.) have a copyright(henceforth,"C") for the recording/item that you market. (3)If you radically alter a composition you can have a "C" on that reworking. This is often done (even w/out much alteration) to songs in the public domain. (4)People entering the music biz need to be aware & make plans concerning all of these. This is the main income for most successful artists. Some people make one score (either their own recording or just placing a song successfully) & never need to work again. This (as we see with the initial question) can be a major point of contention & must be planned in advance. (5)As for band compositions, agreements can take almost any form from equal shares regardless of input (the Doors), to standard breakdowns (Beatles,Stones), to varying listings (the guitarist+the singer write a song; the keyboard player+ the guitarist write a song; the vocalist+ the drummer+ the bassist write a song)[& here we broach the subject of publishing co.s & who owns the "C"s---look at the left hook that felled Lennon&McCartney & ultimately left M.Jackson holding the $$bag!]. No matter what anyone's personal relationships, all these things should be addressed between partners & with an (perhaps more than one) experienced entertainment attorney. This need not be confrontational if it's made clear this is for EVERYONE'S protection. In situations like the original question, concrete facts must be demonstrated: recordings that show the composition(s)'s developement; personal copies (maybe even notarised) of the song's elements; etc. Remember, though under current copyright principles "C" is inherent in the production of a work (musical,visual or whatever) nothing is definite til the proper forms (for each type of "C"---song, recording,etc.) are filed w/the Library of Congress). Finally, there's the question of "work for hire". Session players, composers for films & commercials, etc., generally have no "C" claim, unless they make special agreements. The same thing might apply to bandmembers working for an person who "runs" a band, even if they don't have an official contract to that effect. The bottom line (to anyone still reading) is to learn the legal possibilities & plan ahead. ------------------ This message has been edited by d on 07-02-2001 at 06:15 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted May 16, 2001 Share Posted May 16, 2001 Originally posted by d: In situations like the original question, concrete facts must be demonstrated: recordings that show the composition(s)'s developement; personal copies (maybe even notarised) of the song's elements; etc.Remember, though under current copyright principals "C" is inherent in the production of a work (musical,visual or whatever) nothing is definite til the proper forms (for each type of "C"---song, recording,etc.) are filed w/the Library of Congress). d, I'm no attorney, but I remember reading that copyrights can be developed by simply recording and noting the date of recording and "author" of a song, and formal filing, while beneficial, isn't required to create a "copyright". The author of the book I read said it was therefore important to record all of your song ideas and make notes about when and what you recorded... and lyrics too! If you're an expert, could you clarify this point? guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted May 16, 2001 Share Posted May 16, 2001 guitplayer - while I have the same info you related, it's important to note that filing is a very good piece of hard evidence indicating your ownership and creation date of a copyright. Technically, you can create your own file of information, but a copyright issued by the Library of Congress holds a LOT of weight in court. The trick is to submit a bunch of songs under one filing, as a compilation. You pay the fee for a single filing, and cover many tunes. This could be, but need not be a single project, such as an album. If you need to separate one or more songs from the compilation, this can be done at a later date. Could someone with more copyright knowledge take it from here? Neil It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted May 17, 2001 Share Posted May 17, 2001 Well, I'm NOT an expert---kids, no one without an up to date legal degree is !---but I've seen some of the problems that originated this thread & as a composer I always wanted to know what I was in for. Recordings only work as a reference of what work is done &,maybe, by whom. Unless you can have them notarised (& I kinda doubt that's possible, on reflection, since they can be altered)they don't really hold definitive legal water (gee, what a screwy image!). Same goes for mailing material to yourself---anyway, by the time/cost you spent on the registered mail you could've gone for a registered copyright. Again, though copyright IS considered inherent in the creation of a work of art, your only reliable option is official registration---and THAT'S just in the US. Other nations may require their own registrations (this is why up-to-date legal advice is important)---or, in certain non-copyright-treaty places (yeh,there's an international agreement pertaining to this!), you may have no protection at all, especially on "mechanicals" (the right to copy the item itself---CDs, videos,etc.). By the way, it's not really "on subject" but it's possible to copyright more than one composition under one fee, although then they are "locked" together in a way I (nonexpert) can't realy explain. Consult reliable books, talk to people who've "been there" proffessionally & CONSULT AN ATTORNEY! ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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