nrg music Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Hello everyone, Firstly my appologies for not having been around much lately but I have taken on far too much work which hasn't left me any time for the boards... My question is one concerning writers credits and royalties for guitar players... Here's the scenario. A newly signed band that I am currently producing all stormed outta the studio today after a serious war about writing credits. The vocalist is without any doubt the main songwriter in the band and he comes up with all the melodys and lyrics for the songs they are recording... However the guitar player and he are having an all out war because the guitar player is, in his eyes, writing an enormous amount of harmonies and riffs that are without a doubt integral to the songs, and without his imput I don't think the band would have been signed..... He has a way of writing incredibly 'hooky' riffs. So basically after a discussion with their management the vocalist told the guitarist that he would recieve no writers credit or royalty for the work he had done on the album... The guitarist and he argued for quite sometime and in the end the guitarist said F**k you and stormed off!! Unless he calms down over the weekend the vocalist will have to continue without any of the crucial bits the guitarist has written, in other words i reckon he will loose his deal. What are your thoughts on this type of situation and what do you think constitutes 'writing' in a band scenario.... are your sympathies with the vocalist or the guitarist? I have my own views, as yet unexpressed, but I would very much welcome your thoughts on this kinda issue. Thanx Simon http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Originally posted by nrg music: writers credit or royalty for the work he had done on the album... The guitarist and he argued for quite sometime and in the end the guitarist said F**k you and stormed off!! Unless he calms down over the weekend the vocalist will have to continue without any of the crucial bits the guitarist has written, in other words i reckon he will loose his deal. Man, if you only knew how close to home that hits.... Not to mention how often I've seen/heard of that happening. Singers... ahhg... *You* should just confront the singer and go "look - just because you wrote lyrics and a chord progression doesn't mean the whole entity is the result of *you*; you're making a big mistake, and more importantly a STEREOTYPICALLY big mistake". Uhg. I was in a band where a tape was being made for "a certain big shot big name producer". Sort of a quicky "hey, this guy wants to hear something NOW" sort of deal. So, we make a tape. The problem is that the singer decides at the last moment all sorts of things need to be changed; not for artistic merit, but to demphasize elements that I felt made things unique. A Really Big Deal ensued. I quickly rework things in a manner that tries to appease everyone in subtle ways, but compromises the whole; I saw what was about to happen (the whole thing self-destructing) and wanted to at least try to keep it alive.... ... in the end the tape was rushed, it just came off bad. By the time the tape made it to The Big Producer the bass player freaked out and quit, and the singer decided to freelance.... it dissipated into nothing. Producers don't like to find out bands are not only not getting along, but not exactly together anymore.... I've seen simlilar things happen many times to other groups. Really silly and ridiculous. It's another one of those amazing behind the scenes qaulities a successful band has to have, everyone being on the same page and mature about working as a team towards a goal. Uhg. But singers usually have some pretty head strong but misguided notions that interfere at the last moment it seems... http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 They should learn to work that shit out or just get out of the business. That kind of petty egocentrism and greed is futile when trying to make money at music. The singer won't want to admit it but he's a greedy bastard and with that attitude doesn't deserve success. The guitar player should demand some songwriting credit if his hooks etc. are really that good...but he shouldn't go too far. IE. A percentage yes, but not 50%, from what you said it seems obvious the guitarist didn't write the songs. He should get some writing credit though and the checks that go with it. Of course, if they're signed to a major label, the chances are 5 in 100 either of them will see any real money, so what's the fuss? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Jeez, I'm glad I'm on the outside looking in on this one! It seems to me that this involves 2 things that I know a lot of serious musicians that are trying to make it don't think about... planning ahead and realizing that this is a business like any other. Maybe even a little harsher when creativity is involved. Even if this works out for the moment, I don't see this thing lasting very long. One thing you can be sure of...this won't happen again to either one of these people. Once bitten... Btw, it's too bad you're caught in the middle of this. Make sure you know who's paying you http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockwirk Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 Is it possible for the singer to get the songwriting credit and the band to get some kind of arrangement credit? I don't know how that works with royalties, but at least it will give some recognition to the band. I know that when I hear guitar parts on an album I just naturally assume that the guitarist came up with them even though he might not get the song writing credit. For example: I look at some of the Police songs that are credited to Sting and know that they would have been very different without Andy Summers and Stewart Copeland's input. And these are like, MAJOR hits for these guys! Every Breath you take, Message in a bottle, roxanne, walking on the moon,... all contain significant parts not written by Sting, but he gets the credit for the song. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gif ~clockwirk~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 So, Simon, how long have you been working with Oasis? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif (Well, the Gallaghers both play guitar I guess, but the attitude's the same). As has been voiced, this is a "no-win" situation. I have opinions that anything that constitutes "making a song unique"...should be given proper credit. To that end, I suppose we should have seen a lot of credits for "Lennon/McCartney/Martin"....but, again, "Satisfaction" was written around that riff. Basically a one note (occasionally two) melody (except for the "hey hey heys")...but it's that riff...and it gets votes for the greatest rock and roll song of all time. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosespappy Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 Blessed are the peace-makers Simon. As a lead vocalist I can say the old joke.... How many lead singers does it take to screw in a light bulb? One, he/she just hold the bulb, and the world revolves around them.... Fogelberg always gave credit to the major contributors (see Norbert Putnam/Danny Kirchmer/Clarence McDonald etc. The writer needs to decide how badly he wishes to be heard, and then realize that the magic in a band is a "shared" vision. I think this is why I've been solo for so long, although I like pretty much every one I've jammed with, I couldn't stand the bickering. In short if the magic is the way they compliment each other, the writer needs to hear that 3rd party. Sorry bro, that could be you. The qguitarist needs to accept an end of jacket credit for his contributions.... Good luck Simon, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 Hello old friend. Sticky Wicket you're in, eh? This has got to be one of the biggest reasons that bands break up. My band has been running into a few of the same issues. On our originals, our singer/keyboardist Darren writes all of the lyrics. On many of our songs we have taken music I've done on 4-track demos and put his lyrics to them. Although the arrangements change substantially(through contributions from everyone) to fit the lyrics, the music remains largly unchanged. On these songs the credits are easy. Lyrics by Darren, Music by me. After we worked out a few songs this way, the issues started coming up, mainly from the drummer. He wants to be included more in the songwriting process. To me what this means is Darren and I will still write every word and every note (he can't write lyrics, or play a note on any instrument besides drums) but because he is there durring the writing, he will recieve credit. His contribution would be important as always, but it will still be one of working on the arrangement as far as I'm concerened. Maybe this is selfish on my part, but I compose music, and he plays drums and I don't want someone elses name on my song. To me, anybody who can be replaced on a song by someone of equal ability and the song will remain essentially the same should not recieve songwriting credit. It sounds to me the guitarist in your group should recieve credit. It may fall on you as producer to decide how much. I don't know if this helps, but I feel better. And hey, that's all that counts. http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/cwm2/cwm27.gif So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 Lordy, Khan!! If he only plays drums, with no lyric or musical input, set him straight!!! Tell him the truth. He is merely a civilian in the matter, and has no say in anything that's going on with the songs, Remind him that he is easily replacable. After all, he's only the drummer. If he wants to learn how to compose music and write lyrics, then welcome him to the community of musicians. If not, tell him ...oh...forget it. Now I'm all riled up on the drummer-as-musician thing. Damn! This is where I get irrational, so I'll shut up now. Sorry... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 Thanks Steve. I was wondering if I was being a little unreasonable here. The problem is that the drummer in my band is not only an outstanding player, he is one of my best friends in the world. It can be a difficult situation to be in, but I would rather work with kick ass musicians and people who I care about than just find someone who will put a part in and not really care. I guess no one said it was going to be easy in every respect. All things considered I have it pretty good. I'm just venting a little I guess. KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent) So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 Hello Simon, I really need to know more about the guitarists contributions to give an opinion. Using the 'Police' analogy above, Sting gets the whole songwriting credit because he basically did the whole song on a 4-track and handed the tape to his band mates. They made it a different sounding song through their arrangments, but it was still Sting's original idea= song. Does the guitarist actually write the chord progressions? If he's making the musical bed and the singer is just writing melody and lyrics then he should get half. If his contribution significant, but he's not actually writing any of the structure of the song, maybe the singer would give him 15 or 20% of the tunes? Remember that John Lennon set it up where George and Ringo got 1% each of Lennon/McCartney songs even tho they didn't really contribute. This really added up in their situation. -David http://www.garageband.com/artist/MichaelangelosMuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 These guys need to remember this is the music business, start hogging rights to songs, etc. and expect to disappear. Doesn't this singer realize that it's common practice to share the songwriting wealth, lots of artists even go as far as giving their A&R guy writing credit. If this band hits the songwriting money will be plenty fat to go around but chances are the band won't hit so why make enemies either way? If he were smart that songwriting credit would extend to all the guys in the band AND his manager, just make sure their split fairly (Singer - 70%, Guitarist - 20%, Drummer and Bass player - 3% each, Manager or A&R - 4%). These numbers are only one possibility but I think you'll find in the long run an arrangement similar to this is only right. (maybe the Drummer and Bass player are just session guys) Either way, DON'T BE GREEDY, Instant Karma will get ya, almost guaranteed. This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 05-05-2001 at 02:20 PM http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricknbokker Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Pay no attention to me, Khan. My reply had more to do with my irritation w/drummers as a group rather than your problem. Goes back to going through 9 drummers in less than 3 years with one band. I can appreciate where you're coming from, regarding your situation. It seems to me that if he is truly your good friend, you could work this out amicably. Maybe give him some guitar lessons!! Best to ya... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg music Posted May 6, 2001 Author Share Posted May 6, 2001 Hi everyone Thanks a million for the replies.... I have just finnished a session and its 1.15am here and I've been working since 10.30am this morning... and yep you guessed it I'm absolutely knackered. I'll reply on Sunday properly, but thanks as always the replies are full of cool suggestions and thoughts. I'm proud to know you all!! Simon http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosespappy Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Good Morning Simon. Your mission, should you decide to accept it is: To blow off all thoughts concerning this matter.Then, sit down with your axe, and a vocal mic, and do what you love to do......... Think only about what you love about this biz(and life in general for that matter)for the whole day,then hope like the Dickins' that some of it wears off on the poor lads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Well, of course Lee has to step in in defense of drummers.... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I really hate it when people refer to drummers as "only drummers". Good ones are NOT easily replacable. They ARE musicians, and an extremely important part of the band. I wouldn't mind at all giving a drummer credit on a song if he is there when I'm writing the song and contributes a lot to the way the finished product turns out - which given the type of music I play, he generally will! Simon, I think that singer is a total dickhead and I'm with Steve L. on this one - greed is stupid. I think the Doors had the right idea, they credited everybody in the band on every song, except for a few that were written solely by Robby Krieger. Why not? Unless one or two people are doing the overwhelming majority of the work, in a band situation I don't have a problem with everybody receiving credit or a percentage or both. Songwriting is a lot of work and even if your band members are willing to be there for you through the process, for example the drummer is sitting there while you write so you don't have to work up loops or play to a drum machine, what's the big deal about giving him a credit? It will help band morale and motivate the members to work harder together. If you're doing more of the work, take a bigger percentage. But geez. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg music Posted May 6, 2001 Author Share Posted May 6, 2001 Well now its Sunday so here goes.... Having re read all your replies it seems that the general concensus is as I feel myself that the Guitarist, on the basis that he is crucial to the project, should get both a credit and a percentage..... A point with which I whole heartedly agree.. Thanks to you all for your words I must say that everything written by you all makes total sense to me.... Chip Yeah I take your point but surely it should really be up to the Management to sort out this one. I am happy to do the Soloman bit but if I really go hell for leather then surely that will affect my long term relationship with the band? Steve yep in an ideal world you are 100% on the money. The problem being that rationally speaking I reckon he should get between 25 and 40% they are that crucial... Do ya think that is too much? ricknbokker Yes you are quite right.... Planning is something that very rarely, in my experience, ever happens in our business, more's the pity... I guess that some would say that creativity and planning don't really go together from an Artistic point of view. As for the payment.... no worries I get half up front so if it falls apart on Tuesday it's not the end of the world http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif The real shame is that as you say as a result of this sorry episode a Band that should have been around a while will probably never make it past a couple of albums at best. clockwirk I think I'm right in saying that Sting wrote most if not all of the guitar riffs for the Police... Is that not so? Ted No way Hose!! I can't bloody stand Oasis http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif They should be on the puke thread imho!! You did however hit the nail 100% on the head in terms of classification... 'Making a song unique' Yes, Yes and yes again!! I will use this in my discussions with the Management on Tuesday... a big thank you for that one http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Rick You diplomat you http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I gottal say that I don't want to get in the middle of this one, but I guess your right that it will probably end up in my court... Although I am gonna do my damndest to keep the hell away from it! Lord knows how i can continue if I get succoured into being the middle man in this one! Khan 'Stickey Wicket'.... Hell I'm impressed !! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Sorry to hear that you have been thru similar stuff, and I take your point on the Drummer issue. I too find myself torn.. as a published writer myself for more years than I care to remember, I too used to find it irksome in the extreme to hand away publishing revenue unless it was slaved for. The thing I learned, the hard way, was that it is much better to have 50% of a million $ than 100% of nothing... It took some painful soulsearching and some considerable eating of humble pie, but I have to say I have never regretted it!! Thanks Mate http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif DC The guitarist doesn't really have any part of the songwriting per se, it is the riffs and hooks he writes that make the songs work, and turns them into the commercial prospect that makes the Record Label want to spend a huge amount of money signing and marketing them. If ya took his work off the record I doubt they would keep their deal, so what do ya think? Rick Sounds like a bloody brilliant idea to me.... as I've got Monday off that's exactly what I'm gonna do... Thanks http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Lee I can honestly say that in my band we have never had this kinda problem... Me an the other guys have always shared writing credits where appropriate, as Ted said if they add something to a tune that make it sound unique I am more than happy to give them a credit and a royalty. As far as I am concerned it is their right, and it keeps us all happy. You are right the singer is a dickhead!! and the worse of it is the Album which would have sounded really good will probably never be made... Geez that wryles me http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif I just hate to see real talent go to waste over this kinda shit!! Thanks again any other thoughts would be very welcome, Simon ...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockwirk Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Originally posted by nrg music: and the worse of it is the Album which would have sounded really good will probably never be made... There is kind of a sense of just desserts for these guys. Like God is saying "fine, if you won't play nice, you won't play at all." It sucks that a cool album won't be made, but on the other hand, if the singer's like this now, just imagine him if the band makes it!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif It's sort of nice to deal with him now and save yourself more trouble later. As for the Police...I'm pretty sure Summers was responsible for the majority of the guitar parts. Sting might have written a couple. Regardless, Summers and Copeland did drastically affect the sound of the band in a very fundamental way. "Roxanne" started out as a quasi-latin thing fer cryin' out loud! ~clockwirk~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 The problem being that rationally speaking I reckon he should get between 25 and 40% they are that crucial... Do ya think that is too much? Well...I can't really comment on this because I'm not there hearing the music or knowing the guys in the band. Technically speaking the singer probably has a right to 100% of the writing credit...I just think it would be stupid of him to demand it especially if the guitar parts are really that cool (and crucial to the commercial validity of the song(s)). Without knowing more I would say 25-40% is totally reasonable and not at all uncommon but that's from where I'm sittin, can't hear shit from here http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif. The guitar parts would have to be damn good to get more than 35% of my song. (not that I'm greedy or anything http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif, actually I split most of the songs I write with my band members because they really are a major part and my inspiration. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsmith Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Howdy all, Boy, this can be an ugly subject. I'm not a lawyer, and don't claim to be an expert of any kind, but I did some research on this a few years back (things could have changed) and this is what I remember. Basically, the parts of the song that are legally recognized as intellectual property are the lyrics and the melody line. So pretty much the singer owns this situation unless he wants to be nice about it. As an example, look at "Every Breath You Take" by The Police. No two ways about it, Summer's catchy riff is what propelled that bad boy up the charts. However, he has zero ownership of the song and gets no royalties. When that rapper used the riff and the song's title (he had new lyrics), Sting got the payoff. Summer's got nadda; he didn't even have a say in the matter. And before you think this can be a minor matter, just look at some of the past examples. Eddie Rabbit and Neil Diamond both broke out after other stars had massive hits with songs they wrote and recorded originally. The songs were flops for them, but chart busters for someone else (Elvis). Now these were individuals, but you can put the example in a band context. A group records a song and just one person gets writing credits. They never get anywhere with the song other than presenting it to regional clubs and such. Two years later, a big star grabs the song and it sits on the charts for twenty weeks. That one person is now a millionaire, the rest of band gets nothing. As a songwriter of many years (so far still amatuer) I am real protective of the credits. I have no problem sharing when there was actually shared input. But I have entered bands that wanted to split writing credits all the way around on everything, even when I wrote the song 15 years before I met any of them. I walked on the issue. Well, after all of that rambling, I never did answer the question; so here goes: if the song was created together, writing credits (and royalties) should be shared. If however, the singer wrote the song and the guitarist just fleshed it out musically, no dice. He can share in the production royalties but not the writing royalties. Hope that wasn't too muddy. Take care, Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 We've had this discussion in our band as well. For instance, our singers good bud in NY sang him the basics of a tune on the phone. I basically rewrote the entire song, adding all kinds of hooks, breaks, bridge, chorus, and harmony. However after we broke it down to songwriting credits...the dude with the three chord idea and partial lyrics got the lions share of the credit. I protested, gently of course, and exclaimed I wouldn't be sharing or collaborating in that capacity again. We finally came to an agreement, and in defense of the non songwriting element of our band, the drummer and bassist, we now credit them on every song our band records, regardless if I wrote everything. They do have an input, and it's important. You just gotta break that ice, and be upfront about issues like this before it boils over and causes hurt feelings. I have been in bands where the singer jots down lyrics on a napkin with absolutely no chord structure, very little melody, and after I helped "her" fix the thing into something workable, offered me NO credit for writing, arranging, or producing the thing. Needless to say, our collaboration didn't last. I suspect that happens alot, but it does get downright primal at times, like dogs marking territory. Funny how protective we are of our intellectual property. Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveMusic Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 I have hesitated to reply to this thread because I don't a thing about how the industry works. However, I do know human nature. And what strikes me out of all of this is... this singer's reaction is surprising? I don't think it's surprising at all. a) He's an egotictical a-hole and won't want to give anyone credit even if they deserve it. b) He is ignorant of how the industry works. Simon, maybe somebody needs to educate him on the ways of the industry. The other thing that strikes me is... and I might be wrong about this... but an overall sense of having to give away too much. Generosity is great. But if somebody doesn't contribute significantly to a song, I can't see how they deserve credit. Again, I don't know how the industry works but it seems odd to me. As for how much a riff or two is worth, I dunno... that could get kinda dicey trying to figure that out. Of course, if the guitarist really contributed alot, he should get credit. But I'd think it would have to be a pretty creative riff. Could the song stand on its own just as easily with "any old riff?" Wow, this is a complex problem and it's hard to advise anyone since they are the ones experiencing it, not me. ------------------ Duke > > > [ Live! ] < < < Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Originally posted by LiveMusic: The other thing that strikes me is... and I might be wrong about this... but an overall sense of having to give away too much. Generosity is great. But if somebody doesn't contribute significantly to a song, I can't see how they deserve credit. Again, I don't know how the industry works but it seems odd to me. Well, "the industry" really doesn't have a standard for who gets songwriting credit. The people in question have to work it out for themselves, and every situation is different. I dunno about "having to give away too much". I CHOOSE to be generous to other people regarding writing credits, I don't feel like I HAVE to. What exactly are you "giving up"? Vanity? As long as your name's on the song, who cares if somebody else's is too, if they helped you to make the song what it was? Money? Let's face it, most people are never going to make a lot of money off their songwriting. But if you break up your band because you have to hold on so tightly to your "standards", you'll NEVER make any money. Make sure that your success is a priority for everyone in your band equally, by whatever means you have to do it, and you can't go wrong. If you want to start getting "greedier" once you're rich and famous, go right ahead, you won't be alone. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif But it makes no sense to shoot yourself in the foot and alienate those you depend on for support, over what is probably going to be nothing but an academic issue. --Lee This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 05-07-2001 at 10:07 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosespappy Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 Yuh know, Simon ole chum, something just crossed my mind. And as soon as I get it untangled I'll tell you what it was! (snort!) Sometimes, every once in a blue,blue, moon, someone gets the opportunity to record something SOOOOOO alive that it literally explodes in the hearing. Could it be that the enregy and emotionally charged atmosphere that you are working in, could prove to be beneficial? Maybe we're speaking to soon on this matter. Maybe you could feed this monster and keep it alive long enough to get a "picture" of it for the whole world to see. I mean, what has more appeal, all of us on this thread getting together in a mutual admiration mode and recording "I'd like to teach the world to sing," or say two of us in opposition to each others views, trying to make our point through our axes on the same cut? Who won? Saul who bailed on waiting for the Lord? or Joshua who waited and watched a miracle? You might be settin' on a land mine bro, but it might just paint the ground gold..... Or blood red with yours and everybody elses entrals dangin' from the trees! HeHeHeHe! Hope this helps!!!! Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 In defense of the point Lee was making, I have given up many, many, ideas, partial and complete songs. Why? Cause to me it was an honor for someone to actually use my material, plus it gave me mucho rep as a songwriter/arranger. Nothing is cooler than to hear someone say something like "this song was written by Gene Temple....etc etc...", (insert your own name!), and when they take the time to preface the song with an interesting anecdote or story concerning your writing.....way cool. I've had about five of my songs recorded by others, and it feels good. So that's why I do it. Do I expect to hit the jackpot by giving this stuff out? No, but it would be nice. It's not the motivation.....never has been. Anybody who says they play music, write music, etc to get rich has been nipping the jug just a little too much. Our music biz money comes in waves....sometimes a little...sometimes alot.....but always somethin. Saturday we played the Cinco de Mayo thing at Jillians here in Va Beach. We played on the deck....it was humid as hell, my hands were swollen and sticky, the sun was making my amps act erratic, and we took a cut in pay just to get on the bill. Yeah, I was tired, but the audience was fantastic, and I didn't even wince at the "little" check we got. Consequently it lead to three more Jillians gigs.....air time, more money than our regular charge, and great time slots. So the reason to protect intellectual property is still very valid, even so, like Lee said, don't alienate your mates over the issue. DO in fact let your collaborator know what you expect (in a nice way), and if he or she doesn't agree to your terms, don't collaborate. Write your own lyrics and music....bring it to them and see what happens. If they don't want to use your good stuff, maybe there is a deeper problem to deal with. Being in a band is like a marriage at times, isn't it? Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 I didn't read all the responses but if this hasn't yet been covered it oughta be. In general, a 'hook' or riff is a melody unto itself as well as often an underpinning to another melody. It is therefore copyrightable, and whoever writes it ought to get songwriter's credit. Sometimes it is also THE strongest element of a song (Go listen to Smoke On The Water if you doubt it). Chords are another matter. They have importance but harmonizing a melody is not in the same league. Copyright law makes the same distinction. Despite all that, however, one must look at the result of all the squabbling. I'd be tempted to give a tamborine player songwriter credit if it would smooth the way to getting a deal. Otherwise, you're carving up a goose which has not yet hatched!!! It never even gets the chance to lay those golden eggs http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif It pays every now & then to put your ego aside. PEACE I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted May 7, 2001 Share Posted May 7, 2001 take a bunch of old blues songs (willie dixon ones work particularly well), add a heavy riff here and there and call 'em yer own tunes. oh and don't forget to name your band "led zeppelin." http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosespappy Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 d.gauss, too funny,too true! Oh and uh Simon? Now that your 24 hour sabatical has expired, you will be sure to update us won't you? I did mention the mess to a friend of mine who raises fox hounds. He mentioned the possibility of using a variation of a shock collar fastened snuggly about the singers ...uh... anatomically similar..uh.. cylindrical feature..uh..that is larger than a thumb but smaller than his wrist, and giving the lad a whack whenever his other pride shows up.... However I'm completely in the dark as to the laws in the U.K. regarding cruelty to wankers,willies, or singer/songwriters...... Hehehe... Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg music Posted May 8, 2001 Author Share Posted May 8, 2001 Steve LeBlanc wrote: >>Without knowing more I would say 25-40% is totally reasonable and not at all uncommon but that's from where I'm sittin, can't hear shit from here . The guitar parts would have to be damn good to get more than 35% of my song. (not that I'm greedy or anything , actually I split most of the songs I write with my band members because they really are a major part and my inspiration.>> Good for you Steve, We do pretty much the same in my band.... We tend to allocate a percentage I think its 20% currently to the non writing members of the band on the basis that their contribution is valued and it is important to me that they feel so. gsmith wrote: >>Well, after all of that rambling, I never did answer the question; so here goes: if the song was created together, writing credits (and royalties) should be shared. If however, the singer wrote the song and the guitarist just fleshed it out musically, no dice. He can share in the production royalties but not the writing royalties.>> Some years ago I would have been with ya on this one Glenn, but I have found over the years that a lot of my more successful songs would have probably never have been as successful without the imput of the rest of the guys in the band.... I might even venture as far as to say that those that have been picked up by much more successful Artists than us may well not have been without. I tend to view it these days as an arrangers percentage that is split pro rata according to imput amongst the band... I'm pleased to say that as a result the band has been together now for 5 years and have licensed albums around the world without any major conflicts, which has led to a 'family' kinda environment which is a pleasure to work in. strat0124 wrote: >> They do have an input, and it's important. You just gotta break that ice, and be upfront about issues like this before it boils over and causes hurt feelings. I have been in bands where the singer jots down lyrics on a napkin with absolutely no chord structure, very little melody, and after I helped "her" fix the thing into something workable, offered me NO credit for writing, arranging, or producing the thing. Needless to say, our collaboration didn't last. I suspect that happens alot, but it does get downright primal at times, like dogs marking territory. Funny how protective we are of our intellectual property. >> strat Good points all... When it comes to intellectual property what does that actually mean huh?? In my book it means MONEY!!! We are all aware that unless you are very lucky, even with a major deal, you are not gonna make bucket loads of money whilst labels are recouping all the recording advances, video and marketing costs.... The only money to be made in the interim is publishing, and maybe thats why we mark out territories with such vigour? LiveMusic wrote: >>I have hesitated to reply to this thread because I don't a thing about how the industry works. However, I do know human nature. And what strikes me out of all of this is... this singer's reaction is surprising? I don't think it's surprising at all. a) He's an egotictical a-hole and won't want to give anyone credit even if they deserve it. b) He is ignorant of how the industry works. Simon, maybe somebody needs to educate him on the ways of the industry. The other thing that strikes me is... and I might be wrong about this... but an overall sense of having to give away too much. Generosity is great. But if somebody doesn't contribute significantly to a song, I can't see how they deserve credit. Again, I don't know how the industry works but it seems odd to me. As for how much a riff or two is worth, I dunno... that could get kinda dicey trying to figure that out. Of course, if the guitarist really contributed alot, he should get credit. But I'd think it would have to be a pretty creative riff. Could the song stand on its own just as easily with "any old riff?">> Hi Duke hows it going huh? I think one of the most depressing things in this particular case is how little any of these guys know about the industry or the way it works. I have tried, without getting too involved, to point out that a band is like a marrige and it will go thru its ups and downs and providing that there is give and take and communication on both sides it should last for many years. The other issue here is that this is not just a riff or two, man this is major hook stuff... If you break it down the songs need these musical hooks, as all great tracks do be they subliminal or up front, they are a major part of the way a song sounds and as such they deserve credit and royalty imho.I would, for sure ,rate them as significant http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Lee wrote: >>Money? Let's face it, most people are never going to make a lot of money off their songwriting. But if you break up your band because you have to hold on so tightly to your "standards", you'll NEVER make any money. Make sure that your success is a priority for everyone in your band equally, by whatever means you have to do it, and you can't go wrong. If you want to start getting "greedier" once you're rich and famous, go right ahead, you won't be alone. But it makes no sense to shoot yourself in the foot and alienate those you depend on for support, over what is probably going to be nothing but an academic issue.>> Lee As ever you put it in a nutshell and I agree with your attitude 100% I also would rather have even a small percentage of something than a large percentage of nothing and boy if this guy goes on like this he will end up with NOTHING!! He just has to grow up and begin to see the wider picture... lets just hope he is intelligent enough to be able to. coyote wrote: >>In general, a 'hook' or riff is a melody unto itself as well as often an underpinning to another melody. It is therefore copyrightable, and whoever writes it ought to get songwriter's credit. Sometimes it is also THE strongest element of a song (Go listen to Smoke On The Water if you doubt it).>> EXACTLY!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif rosespappy wrote: >>Oh and uh Simon? Now that your 24 hour sabatical has expired, you will be sure to update us won't you? I did mention the mess to a friend of mine who raises fox hounds. He mentioned the possibility of using a variation of a shock collar fastened snuggly about the singers ...uh... anatomically similar..uh.. cylindrical feature..uh..that is larger than a thumb but smaller than his wrist, and giving the lad a whack whenever his other pride shows up.... However I'm completely in the dark as to the laws in the U.K. regarding cruelty to wankers,willies, or singer/songwriters......>> Rick Nice one!! LOL http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif The sabbatical was fab, me an my guys had a rehearsal in the open air at my farm... The sun shone, we had a few beers and a bloody good laugh... as well as some serious playing of course! Kinda washed the doom and gloom away, a barbecue followed and after we all went down the pub for a while.... Very Restorative... Thanks. I got a meeting with their Management tonight (Tuesday) I'll let ya know how it goes.... You know I'm half tempted to print this lot off and take it with me.... Thanks Everyone!! Simon http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ( ps. THE SUN IS SHINING allelujah!!!) ...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it... 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LiveMusic Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 It's surprising to me how much is commonly given to others for "collaboration" or whatever you call it... but that's only because I am ignorant. Makes more sense now. I'd suggest you (or somebody this guy would respect if you don't want to get involved) print out several of these responses and hand them to him. And tell him how wonderful he is and how bright a future he has IF he can come to grips with this early in his career. I am not surprised one bit at his reaction. Now, it's up to him to accept it or reject it. Some people can accept being wrong and some people can't. Actually, perhaps his agent should step in and talk to him. ------------------ Duke > > > [ Live! ] < < < Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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