Join me in discussing SMOKING

[LiveMusic]

Ya know, you kinda come to respect people's opinions after you participate in a forum and there is a sense of community. So, I'd like to know your views on something that bugs the shit out of me -- smoking.

 

I hate smoking. I detest smoking. Smoking sucks.

 

When I was young and foolish, I smoked some when I drank beer. Finally woke up one day and realized how dumb it is. (IMHO) Now, when I look at someone smoking, I'm thinking, "Wow, I wonder if that person has ever considered how utterly unbelievable it looks for a non-smoker to watch a smoker suck poison into their body... actually breathe in something that is totally foriegn and naturally repulsive to the body." I think about that sometimes.

 

Know how when you build a campfire and you move around so the smoke stays out of your face? That's because smoke IS repulsive to your body.

 

You guys and gals that play professionally, I'm sure some of you are bothered by smoke. There are probably some "conscientious" smokers on here. Thus, I appeal to you to help me understand how a conscientious person can smoke in public. Is it because you have no clue that it burns my eyes? Is it because you have no clue that I can't breathe well, that it chokes me up? Is it that you've never considered that? Or that you consider it to be MY problem, not yours?

 

Tonight, I will go to a local bar to enjoy live music, one of the joys in life to me. And well over half the crowd will light up. What gives them this right? Why do they have the right to pollute others' air? If you are a non-smoker, perhaps you know what I mean. If you are over 40, it's more likely you know what I mean. As we age, our immune systems have been under attack for many years and smoke, being a freakin' POISON... a damn TOXIN... our bodies find it harder to tolerate it.

 

I am a fun-loving person. I have a blast when I go out. Except for the smoke. Sometimes, I even have to leave certain bars due to it. Why should this be?

 

I've heard arguments before that "Well, nobody forces you to go there." Well, if I am to pursue happiness, a basic premise of our Founding Fathers, which includes regular doses of live music, I don't have any choice; there are no bars here that prohibit smoking. Plus, I could take it a step further.

 

Another argument is that the bar owner has the right to open and run any legal establishment and should not be condoned for it... it's MY problem, nothing more. Well, that's fine... then I propose that we change the laws. Make smoking indoors in public facilities illegal.

 

Is smoking in public (inside) illegal in California? If so, how has it affected commerce?

 

Say that there ARE bars here with live music and that do prohibit smoking. But a band comes into town that is fabulous. One of the best in the world. And they are playing at a club that allows smoking. Why shouldn't I be able to go and enjoy? Base your answer on this: last time I checked, breathing is fairly important. Ah, breathing. Reasonably clean air. THIS IS A CRUCIAL TEST OF YOUR REBUTTAL -- BREATHING... SOMETHING PRETTY BASIC TO LIVING.

 

SUMMARY: I say smoking in public should be banned because it's so injurious to non-smokers pursuit of happiness and health.

 

Also, FWIW, my opinion is that a large percentage of the smokers that smoke in public do so not because they are hooked nor because they enjoy it but because they think it's cool. These are always people under the age of 40, usually under 35. And LOTS of women in this group, especially 20-somethings. This group bugs me more than the die-hard, nicotine-addicts.

 

Peace. I'm just trying to understand.

 

P.S. Do you think that due to our society spending more time indoors... indoors inside air-tight buildings... that we've become MORE sensitive to smoke?

 

P.S.S. The long-term health impact smoking has on non-smokers, that's a powerful argument that public smoking should be banned. But disregarding that... do you think it should be banned because the short-term effects are repulsive enough? (Affecting breathing, burning eyes, etc.)

 

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Duke

[miroslav]

Good luck!

 

I use to smoke...but it wasn't until I quit that I realized what an unintelligent habit it really is.

 

It is difficult convincing people to quit...each person needs to figure this out on their own.

 

The bars...only laws will clean them up...but it would be a bit weird to restrict smoking in a bar where people drink alcohol...another bad habit...but I still enjoy a good brew and buzz every once in awhile.

 

Good luck!

 

This message has been edited by miroslav on 04-27-2001 at 01:20 PM

[Lee Flier]

Well... I have never smoked, and never understood smoking either. I also lost a friend, an awesome drummer, at the age of 45, when he died of lung cancer. He never smoked, but he'd been sitting behind the drums for 25+ years in smoky clubs. I wonder sometimes whether audiences have any idea what they do to MUSICIANS when we're onstage and all the smoke drifts right up in our faces. I'd suggest you have fans on either side of the stage to blow the smoke out as much as possible.

 

But then, I live in a large city, and like in most large cities, people drive CARS. And nowadays a lot of them drive SUV's. They live out in the suburbs and commute to work for an hour or more on the highways, and basically they're just sitting there polluting the air. Most of us drive cars and so we contribute to this. I live near a metro rail line which I use as much as possible, and I work at home. So I contribute less pollution than the average person, but I will never convince very many people that they should do likewise. This is unfathomable to me because the air quality is well known to be bad and asthma attacks, especially among children, have risen dramatically in the last 10 years. If anyone doubted that pollution is the cause, when we had the Olympics here in 1996 everyone was instructed to use the train, telecommute, or be on staggered work schedules whenever possible to reduce traffic. It worked out really well, and area hospitals reported (get this) a FIFTY PERCENT reduction in their asthma attack cases during the two weeks the Olympics were here. Yet, when they were over everyone just went back to the same old thing.

 

Funny too how so many people move out to the suburbs because "it will be safer for the kids" but they don't seem to care if their kids are choking on the pollution they create driving their cars to work.

 

People in this country just do not make the environment a very high priority and frankly, they may not ever until it's too late. The percentage of people who voted for George W. Bush bears out that the only thing people really care about is money.

 

By contrast, if you go to Europe they care a lot more about "the environment" in many ways but just about EVERYBODY smokes.

 

So I really don't know what the answer is, except that most people do not think very "big picture" about any of this stuff. People are mostly concerned with whatever will get them through the next day. That might include being "cool" or being addicted to nicotine. Sometimes the human race just seems to have a death wish or at least a willingness to suffer needlessly.

 

Wish I had a more positive answer for ya. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

--Lee

[Scott from MA]

As a fellow non-smoker, I can sympathize. When I'm forced to be in a bar all night, I always feel lousy the next day.

 

I don't, however, think you will ever see smoking banned in bars. It just isn't smart business. Unlike most other forms of business, a bar depends on keeping people inside longer so that they will drink more. This is the entire reason that bars offer entertainment, it's a ploy to get people to stay longer. If the patrons have to go outside to smoke, then they aren't inside drinking and spending their money.

[Scott from MA]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

The percentage of people who voted for George W. Bush bears out that the only thing people really care about is money.

 

That's not totally true... some of us are just gun lobbyists and supporters of the death penalty. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[BK_dup2]

Live,

 

Yeah, smoking in public places here in LA is banned. That includes clubs.

 

For myself I just quit 2 months ago. I was never a heavy smoker by any means but it was still tough to give up.

 

I was helping a buddy of mine move and had been out the night before. I must have smoked maybe 8-10 cigs and just felt like shit. When I was in my early twenties It didn't phase me. But now that I am 30 It just feels really horrible.

 

I got started by the Drummer in my high school rock band giving me a Benson and Hedges 100. ALong with drinking beer I moved up to Marlboro Reds. BAD BAD BAD move.

 

I now know 2 people that have lung cancer from smoking. They are only in their early thirties (can you imagine having one of those vibrating talk boxes) -- HOLY SHIT IS THAT GRUESOME!!!. Funny how what your parents said to you as a teen is true.

 

With that said - SMOKING GETS THE BOOT!

 

BK

[LiveMusic]

Kinda getting off on another subject but...

 

Originally posted by Scott from MA:

Unlike most other forms of business, a bar depends on keeping people inside longer so that they will drink more. This is the entire reason that bars offer entertainment, it's a ploy to get people to stay longer. If the patrons have to go outside to smoke, then they aren't inside drinking and spending their money.

 

Did California ban indoors smoking? Can anyone tell me? I'd like to know.

 

Your comment... this is precisely why the drunk-driving laws don't quite sit right with me. I mean, people shouldn't drive drunk, I agree. But the laws have gotten so downright nasty with DUI penalties... it's kinda hard for me to express properly...

 

...but it's just kinda weird to me that bars and Happy Hour and bazillions of dollars of advertising are promoting drinking and having fun... and they have these harsh laws for people who screw up. It doesn't quite mesh. I mean, people are going to screw up; they are not going to change that. And how the hell do they expect people to get to bars? Walk? Come on. And to say that everybody that goes to bars and drinks is going to have only one or two drinks... this is nuts. It's just insane. Most people do not have that much will power.

 

I don't know the answers for DUI... but it's kinda strange to me how it all works. Now, if the penalty for DUI were execution, it would certainly cut down on it.

 

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Duke

[LiveMusic]

Are human beings the only species that is self-descructive? What bozo way back when thought... "Hey, why don't we dry these leaves out and crumble them up and set 'em on fire and breathe in the smoke! Man, that should be GREAT! Yeah, breathe in SMOKE... gosh, that seems like it would be great!"

 

I remember back when I was 13 or so and trying to smoke a cigarette. Remember how bad you hacked and coughed? Why are we such idiots? We can't understand basic biological rejection?

 

My brother stinks like all get out when he walks into my office. This is just after he's had a shower and has put on clean clothes. I can only imagine what his lungs are like. I don't know where that smell is coming from. His breath, I guess. I worry about him if I think about it but I don't say anything. I guess it's his business. Man, what a freakin' terrible habit.

 

And... I noticed yesterday cigs advertised for $2.50 a pack. Two packs/day is $150 a month. That's a lot of money for a sure way to make you and everybody else feel like crap.

 

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Duke

[BK_dup2]

Hey Duke,

 

In California Cigs are 4-4.50 a pack with State Tax.

 

1.5 packs a day X $4.5 X 365 = $2463.75 a year.

 

Thats a nice fucking guitar man!!

 

BIG TOBACCO IS THE ANTI-CHRIST

[Scott from MA]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

Are human beings the only species that is self-descructive?

 

No... Lemmings commit mass suicide, and whales beach themselves. However, we are the only species that wears hats! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

I believe smoking is banned in all public indoor places in California. I should know the specifics because I live in San Diego.(75 degrees and sunny today, what's new) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif I just take it for granted until I travel to some place where people are smoking next to me in a restaurant. I can't believe people accept that.

 

I used to hate going to live music venues when smoking was allowed. My clothes would just smell horrible. I would love to see the tobacco companies fade away like a bad dream. Smoking is like an intelligence test and I hope that in time more people will pass that test.

[LiveMusic]

If bars have survived in California without smoking, can they survive elsewhere? What do people do out there? Do a lot walk outside and smoke? I wonder what the percentage of smokers is in CA versus other states.

 

Here's what they could do. Ban smoking indoors in public places. Ban smoking in outdoor public arenas. Smoking is allowed in private. But tobacco is banned from being sold. If somebody wants to smoke, fine, you can do that. But you have to grow your own and process it yourself. Why not? I mean, if someone absolutely has to have it, they can get it. Grow it. Otherwise, give it up.

 

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Duke

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Scott from MA:

That's not totally true... some of us are just gun lobbyists and supporters of the death penalty. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Yeah but again, it's a "priority" thing. I'm not for gun control either but on the other hand, a gun can't defend you against getting killed by pollution and that is much more likely to kill not only you, but the whole damn planet.

 

--Lee

[coyote]

I am a non-smoker, and vastly prefer smoke-free environments. I also believe publicly-owned buildings should be smoke-free. That said....

 

I think banning smoking in privately owned commercial establishments is idiotic! It should be a business owner's call as to whether smoking is allowed in his/her establishment. It then becomes the prospective patron's choice as to whether or not to patronize that establishment. And while I'm all for workplace safety, there are many folks who would love to smoke while working - and they would be ideal candidates for employment in such businesses.

[LiveMusic]

Coyote, I favor limiting government intervention as much as possible. But some things, we have no choice because people are not necessarily going to protect your rights. Nor the public good.

 

Is public smoking good? Is it bad? If it's bad, then why allow it?

 

Lemme ask you something. I love live music. In my state, live music means sucking in a few thousand cubic feet of smoke each night. Is that "right?" So, I should either accept the fact that smoke-sucking and live music go hand in hand and just bear it... or if I can't accept it, I quit listening to live music? (I'm not chastising you; you have the right to your own opinion even though I may not agree with you.)

 

In this state (and all surrounding states), there are ZERO non-smoking establishments (that I am aware of) that prohibit smoking that have live music. Maybe a coffeehouse or something if I drive a few hours (but not necessarily what I want to listen to).

 

So, your premise about the owner having his right does not infringe on my rights?

 

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Duke

[Lee Flier]

Duke, maybe you oughta buy an oxygen mask and go to clubs wearing it... that would protect your health and also make a statement to the club owners AND the patrons! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Come to think of it maybe I'll start wearing a gas mask on stage.... LOL...

 

--Lee

[Ian Stewart Cairns]

Originally posted by Scott from MA:

No... Lemmings commit mass suicide...

 

Sorry to come across like a pedant, but this is simply a myth. Some migrant Norwegian lemmings do indeed die by drowning in the sea, but in general, lemmings try to avoid water and although they can swim, do not enjoy it. There is nothing "suicidal" about their behaviour, they are just following paths created by other animals, including humans.

 

As to the more substantive point regarding smoking, I wholeheartedly agree. I would like to see smoking banished from human society. It is not that the act is inherently evil, or that smokers are bad people, or that I have some metaphysical "right" to live free of smoke, it is a straightforward, Benthamite utilitarian calculus - smoking brings a great deal more pain than it does pleasure. Hence is should be dispensed with.

 

If you think musicians in general are badly affected by inhaling other people's smoke, spare a thought for the professional singer. Passive smoking is a direct threat to her livelihood.

 

Next time someone asks you "Do you mind if I smoke", here is a rejoinder (which I use quite frequently). "No, do you mind if I spit!" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Ian

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Ian Stewart Cairns on 04-27-2001 at 03:50 PM

[Scott from MA]

I think that the thing you are forgetting (and the point coyote was trying to make) is that bars are NOT public places. They are private establishments, and the owner is under no obligation to serve you, accomodate you, or protect you. The owner's choice to allow smoking is NOT an infringement of your rights, because it's his own private place. He has decided to make it available to you, and the only "right" that you have is to accept or decline his services.

[Scott from MA]

Thanks for the Lemmings info, Ian... but it was only a joke. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Ian Stewart Cairns]

Originally posted by Scott from MA:

Thanks for the Lemmings info, Ian... but it was only a joke. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

No probs Scott. The reason it came to mind was that I was having a discussion about this the other night with someone wo really does think it is true (many people do).

 

Ian

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

Most bars ARE public places, that's why cigs can be outlawed there. Cigar bars are allowed only if they are made into private clubs.

 

Duke- When they banned smoking in California, restaurant and bar owners were worried that their business would decline. It hasn't had any effect on business according to statistics. People still have to go out to eat and still like to go to clubs at night. Smokers do go outside to smoke but not many. Cigarrette consumption is lower here than most parts of the country, especially among men.

[LiveMusic]

Scott, when I mention "a right" or "the right" I mean morally, not legally. And when I said "public place" I mean any place people congregate.

 

And... the smoking thing is not your average bear. It is an act that is so pervasive, it is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid if you choose to pursue certain activities by the mere fact that it IS legal and, hence, not banned. Like live music. The question I pose is... is allowing smoking indoors in places where people congregate... is this something that infringes on others' rights since they can't avoid it due its pervasive use? (It's everywhere.)

 

A smoking membership club... I wonder how that would tie into this? I'll have to think about that one.

 

I don't know the answer. I just am fed up with this shit and would like to get a mass movement or something going to ban it. IMHO, it ain't right.

 

MANY things have been banned and I'm sure many are far less harmful than second-hand cigarette smoke. AND... realize that I'm curious about others' position on the short-term effects smoking has on non-smokers... breathing difficulties, eyes burning, stinking air. One can take the long-term health position and have a very strong case against public smoking. But I also propose that breathing generally fresh air is a basic right... even if there are zero long-term health hazards.

 

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Duke

[LiveMusic]

MY GAWDDDDD! A CIGAR BAR? A bar where people go in there and they all fire up cigars? Holy Moly, I'll bet that place really smells great. Man, that would be hell to have to endure. If there's anything worse than a cig, a cigar damn sure wins the prize. I just wanna go over and pinch the damn thing out. I wish I was 7' tall and 300 lbs.

 

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Duke

[Jimmy James]

I use to smoke then I quit. My wife took up smoking with me but now she can't quit. I wish I had the power to make her quit, but there's nothing I can do about that monkey on her back. Some say it's worse than heroin.

 

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http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/144/oscar_jordan.html

[strat0124]

Actually I don't care what people do or don't do, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, and doesn't infringe on my individual rights. I don't smoke "cigarettes", and will have a beer or glass of wine maybe three times a year. In the old days I smoked, ingested all kinds of things, drank like a viking, and was generally a hell raiser. But never did I fire up a cig while eating, or in the presence of someone else eating, and was very conscious of where my smoke went. That is the problem, smokers think that because it's their right to smoke, @#$% the people around them.....and in expressing their rights they are @#$%ing violating mine. I got in a major fistacuff in Boston ten years ago with a barrel chested cigar smoker who was blowing smokerings right through our table. I don't think I'd do it today, but I also wouldn't put myself in that situation. People are rude these days, and could care less.

[strat0124]

Actually I don't care what people do or don't do, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, and doesn't infringe on my individual rights. I don't smoke "cigarettes", and will have a beer or glass of wine maybe three times a year. In the old days I smoked, ingested all kinds of things, drank like a viking, and was generally a hell raiser. But never did I fire up a cig while eating, or in the presence of someone else eating, and was very conscious of where my smoke went. That is the problem, smokers think that because it's their right to smoke, @#$% the people around them.....and in expressing their rights they are @#$%ing violating mine. I got in a major fistacuff in Boston ten years ago with a barrel chested cigar smoker who was blowing smokerings right through our table. I don't think I'd do it today, but I also wouldn't put myself in that situation. People are rude these days, and could care less.

[Scott from MA]

I hate to have to defend smoking, because I hate it too, but I worry about things being banned because someone thinks it "morally" wrong. Morals are just like religion, everyone assumes that there's is right. I agree that smoke is bad for your health, and nearly impossible to avoid, but you DO have the choice of not going into a smokey bar. If we start banning things because a group of people don't like it, where do we stop?

 

Let me put it into a different perspective for you... How would you feel if a group of people wanted to ban live music in bars? Their argument is the same, it is a "public" place, and the loud music can be damaging to their health because over time it can cause damage to your ears. You can't get away from it without leaving the bar. You being allowed to damage their hearing with your loud music is "morally" wrong, and they should be able to have a drink at the bar without being subjected to it.

 

Sounds stupid, right? You would say, "Well, they don't have to go to a bar where music is playing." You don't have to go to a bar where people are smoking either.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see more non-smoking clubs. I just think that it should be left up to the club owner. The last thing we need in this country is more "Federal Commissions" telling us what we can or cannot do.

[LiveMusic]

Scott, the person that wants to go to bars that don't have live music has zillions of choices. I don't have any to go to that play live music and who disallow smoking. They don't exist around here. I'd have to move to California.

 

If someone were to come into the bar wearing one of those goofy hats that has a little pump up tank attached to it and it sprays a fine mist of water over you to keep you cool... if someone were to rig his up to spray a fine mist containing lead and asbestos and all sorts of illegal chemicals, would you be opposed to that? Some of that mist is going to drift.

 

It's illegal; it's banned. And it's precisely what cigarettes do except that cigarettes are worse -- they have an IMMEDIATE negative health effect on people in the room. Conversely, the lead and asbestos effect takes years before you notice it.

 

Public smoking sucks.

 

I'm trying to understand; so far, I remain convinced it infringes on one of my basic rights... breathing.

 

I can't think of anything that is like smoking. I mean, anything I can equate it to. It's a pretty unique vice.

 

I don't know the stats but there are many people who will argue that the proof exists that second hand smoke is flat out deadly.

 

To me, smoking in public is so obviously wrong based on what we now know about its health effects and how its effect on people has worsened due to the number of hours we stay inside (our immune systems have become less tolerant)... that the only answer I can come up with for why it's allowed is $$$$$$$$$$.

 

Then again, I'm open to anyone who can come up with opposite views.

 

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Duke

[lwilliam]

It's interesting that just about every post here (if not all of them) is from a NON-smoker. Let me give you a California smoker's perspective:

 

A few years ago when smoking in (indoor) public places was banned in this state I was pretty outraged (thought about moving, etc.) and a LOT of bar/club/restaurant owners were really uptight about losing business.

 

Well, things went as they went and now it's very common for me to go outside a club, bar, or restaurant where a few other die-hard smokers are having a cig' in the "smoking section" as we laughingly now call it. I actually don't mind it - it's my own bad habit and I know it bothers some people. It also helps me avoid chain-smoking while having a drink, so it's made me smoke less. I may not be your average smoker, however, as I also don't smoke in my house, but go out to the backyard patio.

 

There are a couple of restaurants where say, at 10:00pm - and on the outside, canopied area of the bar or restaurant - people will fire up their stogies (cigars). Twin Palms comes to mind for that. I've also seen private "smoking" clubs, but haven't checked any out. There are a very few number of restaurants which have outdoor patio tables where you can smoke.

 

It's now very weird for me to visit another state and be asked "smoking or non-smoking?" at a restaurant, or to actually see ashtrays in a bar. I kind of get nostalgic when that happens http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif. However, I do like the fact that, in California, my eyes no longer burn after being in a club for several hours, and I don't mind going outside at all.

 

Just thought I'd give a different perspective.

 

 

 

 

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Larry W.

[LiveMusic]

By the way, Scott, when I said "morally wrong," I meant morraly wrong because it affects other people. Something like murder; it's wrong. It's also illegal. Kudos to the government for making it illegal. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

What is the role of government? Do you think government should ever step in and "protect us?" I am one of the biggest crusaders you'll ever see for keeping government out of our lives. In fact, there are laws now that are designed to protect us that I don't agree with. But smoking in public... well, you know my position.

 

It's obvious to me that most (not all but most) smokers could not care less about us non-smokers. Therefore, I support the government stepping in.

 

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Duke