gtrmac Posted June 17, 2001 Share Posted June 17, 2001 Reeves Gabrels said he wanted to know what the rules were so he could decide which ones he wanted to break. I thought that was cute. For me the bottom line is if you make music which makes you happy, and if you can entertain others, who cares about the theory. I admit believing that someone who wishes to, or already does play guitar professionally, will find knowledge of music very useful. I hate the word theory by the way. What's it good for making theoretical music? I'll take real music please. I have to admit that I kinda agree with Lee in some ways. And I can't keep playing Devil's Advocate forever. I give up!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif ------------------ Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosespappy Posted June 17, 2001 Share Posted June 17, 2001 Lee, How right you are. Persig plugs into a different set of cells on everyone who reads that book. His line near the beginning of his ride,where his buddy, with the new BMW, is agast at his use of a beer can to make a shim....... Anyways, I've been asked to teach a class at the local school on creative writing...... I'm think'in Persig is a must read for the class. As always Lee, you are a master at the big "Y". Cool Thread! Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted June 17, 2001 Share Posted June 17, 2001 Originally posted by nrg music: Absolutely, I always thought Van Halen did an awesome version of 'You Really Got Me'...... As for the poor drummers syndrome I never heard a truer word! Drummers are so.... Hhmm. They're like wind-up toys. You just have to let them go and see what they do. Used to play with a great fusion drummer a few years back in a cover band; it was always interesting to hear what songs he would get the vibe right on and which ones he wouldn't - it would have nothing to do with the degree of difficulty, he could play it all. It would always sound good, but the vibe wouldn't always be right. Personally, I don't get that, I don't see how that happens, but "oh well". Maybe it's strategery, as King George says. So how do the rest of us sign up for the Serious Loon Society anyways? Oh, well, you don't actually "sign up" per se. One just knows. Then, other people notice and then all it takes is for you to be serious in public one day, have someone call you "loony" because of it, and then boom - there you go. Of course, it helps if you're also in the Stark Raving Mad Club, you can get references that way. Also, please don't confuse us with JPLS - the Just Plain Loony Society, particularly since King George is really mucking up the works over there and they have a more stringent dress code. My hovercraft is full of eels Meow, Chip McDonald ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted June 17, 2001 Share Posted June 17, 2001 Originally posted by Chip McDonald: My hovercraft is full of eels Meow, Chip McDonald You know Chip, there was a recall announcement in consumer reports... Any hovercraft full of eels should immediately be taken to the dealer for free service. They fixed mine up in a giffy! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Thought you would want to know... BTW, while you're at the dealer, have them look in the space between the seat covers and the back firewall. The Queen of England was having her craft "bullet-proofed" and they found lots of cool hardcore porno mags 'n stuff there... Meow! guitplayer ------------------ http://www.mp3.com/acousticvoodoo Guitar Forum CD Info http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000537.html I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynx Posted June 19, 2001 Share Posted June 19, 2001 Well, I'm with you, Lee. I really felt guilty about not knowing any theory until, like you, I took some lessons and realized that I would never need to sight read 32nd notes for rock'n'roll. My teacher, a Berklee graduate, becoming quickly aware of my imminent departure, said he would teach me enough so that I could continue to teach myself what I wanted to know. I've been a minimalist auto-didact ever since. I've only learned what I absolutely needed since then and mostly for the songwriting-this was the way in to understand those wonderful and ever popular descending and ascending progressions that the Beatles and other pop rockers used so much. Later adventures into 1930's and '40's swing jazz (learning, composing and playing 32 bar refrains and jazz melodies by ear and memory) and a lot of listening to classical music not only expanded my understanding of musical relationships (untainted by "rules") but also began to reveal where much of the stuff in contemporary pop and rock music originated and how it evolved.And of course did a lot for my "feel " and musical ideas, methinks. When you listen to classical music and learn something about it( I prefer the romantic composers and the baroque stuff) you begin to realize how trivial even the most complex rock song is by comparison. Which is not to say that some of the best rock pieces do not match some of the best symphonies in intensity, but arguing about theory in rock/blues music is kind of ridiculous when music by composers like Tchaikovsky, Vivaldi and Duke Ellington exists.. While I can easily say that I've played all styles (or most of 'em) I've always considered myself a rock musician (I've never answered that ad either-"plays all styles")-and contrary to some of the theory wanks, I have earned the right to refer to myself as a musician. Some of my songs are pretty complex by rock standards-ascending and descending bass lines over major and minor chord progressions, key modulations, bridges, lots of harmonies and counterpoint-but I'll be damned if I could tell you what most of it is in correct musical terminology. It's still just simplistic pop music.I think of theory as a handy Swiss Army knife that helps solve problems in songwriting, but I always' make a point of hearing what I want in my head and only examining it if it doesn't sound right to me when I play it. Melody, above all, is king and should originate upstairs. It is kind of neat, too, when you can do the whole arrangement in your head without an instrument. In blues I think it's just a long road of learning how and where to violate that pentatonic and being able to make it do what you're hearing in your head on the fly. That has a lot to do with maturity-knowing what to leave out. Some thoughts on Jeff Beck, whom you mention, probably my all time favorite soloist (especially Truth and Yardbirds) He is by his own admission- an excellent copyist (ever hear that Gene Vincent tribute album? He previously emulated Roy Buchanan for awhile-Blow by Blow,etc.) Not much of a theorist though.According to him all the wild stuff is just about goin' for it and if it works it works-if not -train wreck. You're wasting your time battling Ian though. He's one of "them". I've worked with these guys on and off thru the years. They are slaves to the God of Superior Knowledge. He's never going to get it. And that's o.k., he's an intelligent and worthy opponent from a different school.As a rough generalization music from that school does tend to be a bit "stiffer" than ours. Nevertheless it has it's place.They are the keepers of the flame.I want people like that out there to set the standards and raise the bar so there'll be lots of rules for us to break! It's a dirty job but..... I think Les Paul summed it up when he said(approximate quote) "If he feels it, the guy with one note (per measure) can say a lot more than the guy with sixteen." This from a guy who could easily play 16 per bar over complex structures but had no formal music education. In closing I'll leave you all with one more interesting quote. To a musician who stated that he was terrible at math someone said (was it Einstein? Can't remember)"Every musician is a mathematician" which is true as all musical relationships are based on numeric values.(I love that quote 'cause I always sucked at math in school-EXCEPT money. I can COUNT money!) But most people don't pursue algebra for fun, only if it's really useful in their chosen endeavors. So I don't think anyone is advocating NO theory here, just questioning the extent that one might need it in a minimal, intuitive type of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJ Posted June 19, 2001 Share Posted June 19, 2001 To Lynx... AMEN! ------------------ KJ ------------------- bari man low KJ ------------------- "50 million Elvis Presley fans can't be all wrong" - John Prine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b3wiz Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Back when I was a kid going to church there used to be this music director who was the best reader I've ever known to this day. My theory back then was very limited. But I could swing. I played B3 and piano in a band and I loved playing barrel house and honky tonk and all that. The preacher really liked my playing and asked me if I would play one sunday morning. Not getting in till 5am made it a chore, but I agreed and brought a friend with me. We took a couple of old gospel tunes and did kind of a jump swing version of them. It was almost totally improv on my part and we kicked major ass. The congregation loved us. It was the first time I had ever seen this bunch up out of their seats, clapping their hands. The music director was furious. She wanted to have me excommunicated, but I didn't really belong. She said it was heretical to allow me to come in there and make those people act that way-- especially after I had played in a "den of iniquity" all night. It was great. It really pissed her off that I could woo the congregation like that when, according to her, I couldn't even play because I couldn't read. I bet Jesus loved it though. In fact, He was probably getting into it the night before, too. I am glad that I learned to play improv before I learned to play technically. It made discipline a tough thing, but I'm satisfied with the way it turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 Originally posted by b3wiz: We took a couple of old gospel tunes and did kind of a jump swing version of them. . There's a style of playing church hymns in a sort of jump way that is very specific rhythmically, sort of like a rag style, that I haven't heard in a long time. My grandmother used to play piano in that manner - knew I don't know how many "hymns" - but played with a very curious exagerrated beat - a skitterishly late 1, rushed/flammed 2, latish 3, on beat 4. Certain rags are like that, but I've heard a number of old church pianists play this way (actually, I haven't since I was a kid...) and there's something specific about it in a microrhythmical sense... oh well. ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip_dup1 Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 I don`t know that I can say a lot that`s new about this topic, but as an anecdotal note on my own path... For some time, I played guitar as a very personal, private means of expression. I didn`t really think about audiences, arrangements, or what `fit` about what I was playing. My theoretical experience was limited to a few piano lessons. After some time spent in a quartet of friends that was basically all improvisational, I moved overseas and started playing out-a lot. We moved through a fair variety of styles, but nothing super challenging. Still, I became aware of the limitations my lack of theory was causing. I hooked up with some jazz cats, and I could play some of the things I knew already, but at one point I had to say-okay, this is annoying-I need to know what the hell`s going on. I came back to the U.S. and found a great teacher (Julliard grad), and later got together with a different group of friends for an all original group. I remember the other guitarist turned and said to me one day, out of the blue, `you used to play like Hendrix`. I thought about it, and it was like, yeah, but that`s ALL I could do. There`s so much more music that I liked but couldn`t play, cause I didn`t know what scales to use, or couldn`t keep up with the changes. Last week I was near Shnjuku station in Tokyo, and there was this kid who was playing with a rhythm box and a little amp, and it was basically blues-rock stuff, but he sure had done his monster lick homework. Speedy runs, two-handed tapping-yeah I enjoyed it, but I had to admit that there was no going back for me. I still have some songs in that genre, but I can now write out and play much more of what`s in my head. I would say that yes, learning theory has changed my playing but for the better, especially considering the number of talented players mining the blues-rock vein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.