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Studio guitarists who've filled in secretly for the "real" guitarist


kudyba

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I know Lisa has a story or 2 about studio guys playing the guitar parts on some well known albums in the past, especially when guitarists were too under the influence to play or even show. I've "heard" that in the late 70's, Aerosmith & KISS were supposedly 2 bands that have had studio guitarists who go uncredited playing the supposed member of the band. I've also heard that in the glam band 80's scene, Warrant and Poison were just 2 more examples. Any of you have any specifics as to bands/album names where that has happened or allegedly happened?

 

It's kind of ironic that people point out today the auto-tune effect these days when at least it's the band's lead singer actually singing on the album...

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This one isn't necessarily guitar oriented...but going back to the psychedelic 60s...the band "Strawberry Alarm Clock" was in the studio for a session. The singer for some reason was non-existent, so, according to rock legend, they had one of their buddies who just happened to be along sing a scratch vocal track for their "Incense and Peppermints" tune. The buddy then took off for parts unknown. They ended up keeping the track, so the version you hear on the oldies radio station has some stand in singing the lead. They hired a new vocalist, who sang the song live.
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Originally posted by LiveMusic:

What do you mean "auto-tune?" Does that mean a device amending the pitch of an off note to make a singer always sing on key? Do a lot of bands use that?

Yeah, Antares Auto Tune as a hardware and there's also plug-in...I know few who used it in studio (hey, I even played with one who used in the studio)... Imagine what was the live performance like...

If it sounds god, just play the darn thing
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Originally posted by LiveMusic:

Do a lot of bands use that?

 

Ahhggg!!!!

 

Then again, based on how derivative basically everything is these days, "autotune" pretty much explains a lot more....

 

Listen for a peculiar sound resembling a fish gargling on some notes in the vocal. Turn to one of the country video channels on tv - you'll probably hear it immediately.

 

Or maybe not; fit doesn't seem to bother anyone around me at work, I bet wouldn't know what I was talking about and would probably laugh at the suggestion that it's easy to hear. Oh well.

 

I'm terrified the near future is 100% autotuned, featuring no harmonic content, A-A-A-A song "structure", no live instrumentation, with lyrics that are essentially one line repeated over and over (ala most techno/electronic chants). In this future, I'm unemployed because I "play an instrument", a "musician" which doesn't mean anything to anyone anymore, a lost art. Hmph, I'll be a Jedi in exile like Obi Wan Kenobi.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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Originally posted by kudyba:

I know Lisa has a story or 2 about studio guys playing the guitar parts on some well known albums in the past, especially when guitarists were too under the influence to play or even show.

 

Actually, that's a totally false statement! I have absolutely no knowledge of any such incidents occurring on any sessions or shows that I've worked on.

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A friend of mine's sister is best friends with the wife of one of the biggest stars ever in the history of country music. We get a lot of inside scoop from her. One thing my friend has said to me for years is that it is VERY common for band members to be replaced by studio musicians to do the deal for the recording sessions. Not like it takes a musician not showing up or being sick... that it's just SOP. (Standard Operating Procedure.)

> > > [ Live! ] < < <

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I'm not shocked by country artists using "studio musicians" for their recordings. There's a long history of artists who used the Columbia "Nashville Sound" guys on all the older country stars tunes. Obviously the same small group of guys couldn't go and tour around for every artist at the same time...

 

In general, country music has focused on the singer, and the band was rarely mentioned or even considered as part of "the artist" in any way similar to your typical rock band.

 

On the other hand, studio guys like Jimmy Page played on lots of uncredited material in the early 60's and you can bet that the studio guys in the 70's, 80's and 90's did as well... especially where the focus of the act was the singer and not "the band". Right or wrong, the producers of much of the music we hear don't care about the integrety of the band or any other emotion... it's about having a successful cd and the big bucks that follow...

 

In regard to autotune... my first instinct is to be critical of anyone who uses it... but after thinking more about it I wonder if I'm too quick to judge...

 

For example if during a take, a singer sings a bit off key in a section, what's the classic studio remedy? Another take. In the early days that might mean EVERYBODY does the whole song again. Not very cost effective or time effective. So, when multi-tracking became available, everyone who could, fixed it by retracking, punching in and punching out the offending parts. Sometimes this sounded seamless and sometimes it was obvious and bad sounding...

 

Then came the cut and paste of digital... Few listeners of current music recorded with Pro Tools know or care if they're listening to a complete original take, or a chopped up gumbo... and the outcomes vary from fabulous to horriffic.

 

Now, autotune is available. If you want to use it, shouldn't you? When you "hear" it, aren't you only hearing it used "badly", or for effect? Just like you can have bad or good punch-ins or bad or good Pro Tools editing, wouldn't "good" autotune use be undetectable?

 

Are you Milli Vanilli if you autotune part of your song? If you're playing live, would the audience prefer your "real" bad notes versus a "perfect" performance?

 

Don't get me wrong, I personally prefer a heartfelt "true" live performance and understand that any singer is going to have great nights and not so great nights... but there are times where, (especially due to too much touring), the singer can't hit a certain note or phrase. Is it "OK" to use autotune to fix this? Would I do it? I'm not sure.

 

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I've got a good one that I heard not too long ago. Are you folks familiar with Aerosmith's version of "Train Kept On Rolling"? Well, that was not Joe Perry and Brad Whitford playing the solos on that song. It was Steve Hunter and Dick Wagner from Alice Cooper's band. The story was that the guys in Aerosmith had been in the studio for a few days working and partying nonstop to meet a record release deadline. Anyway's the guys were too out of it to finish the song. Just so happens that the Alice Cooper band were next door working on some stuff. They were brought in to finish the track.

 

I think it was Larry Carlton who played on a Kiss song off of Destroyer. I can't recall the title of the song.......

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Originally posted by Lisa:

Actually, that's a totally false statement! I have absolutely no knowledge of any such incidents occurring on any sessions or shows that I've worked on.

 

Err let me clarify. I mean that you know of stories of sessions--not that you worked on--where other guitarists filled in for the supposed player.

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>>>One thing my friend has said to me for years is that it is VERY common for band members to be replaced by studio musicians to do the deal for the recording sessions. Not like it takes a musician not showing up or being sick... that it's just SOP. (Standard Operating Procedure.)<<<

 

Been that way in country music for years. You do have (band) acts now but

when Nashville was mainly (artist) orientated you had studio musicians and sidemen. Except for a few, sidemen didn't get in on the studio side of things unless the artist had a lot of clout and wanted his live band musicians.

 

 

 

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Sometimes the truth is rude...

tough shit... get used to it.

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Some examples I'm aware of...

 

Counting Crows "August and Everything After" - Almost none of the band played on that album (obviously Adam sang). If you've ever seen them live, you know why. Tracks were supposedly done by a who's who of L.A. studio guys including Fred Tackett of Little Feat. BTW, I don't get that at all. Mr. Tackett is at best "modestly talented." He's no Lowell George or Paul Barrere that's for darned sure but he is controlled and can execute parts so I could see why he might get the call if Mike Campbell was busy.

 

Wallflowers "Bringing Down the Horse." Michael Ward almost *never* actually makes it onto WF records. Again, if you've ever seen them live, you know why. This guy is all bald head, thin physique and attitude. You couldn't find his guitar chops with a microscope. Supposedly, Mike Campbell is the resident "stunt double" for Ward. Great choice IMHO.

 

No, I can't prove it but I believe it. I trust my source on this.

 

This message has been edited by tonemonkey@yahoo.com on 04-05-2001 at 02:57 PM

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Wallflowers "Bringing Down the Horse." Michael Ward almost *never* actually makes it onto WF records.

 

I can verify this somewhat. I was at a lot of the "Bringin Down the Horse" sessions, as far as I know Michael Ward isn't on the album at all.

 

Mike Campbell definitly is as well as a couple of other guys. My Dad is also on the album playing Pedal Steel and Dobro, it was one of the last sessions he did, he had Cancer at the time and died soon after.

 

I've heard Michael Ward is a decent guitar player though, he might be on the newer albums.

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<>

 

I read in an interview with Jon Brion (in EQ Mag I think) where he said he played the lead parts on 'One Headlight.' His name does appear on the liner notes, too. Great guitar player--I love his work with Jellyfish, the Grays, and Aimee Mann.

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Originally posted by guitplayer:

Now, autotune is available. If you want to use it, shouldn't you? When you "hear" it, aren't you only hearing it used "badly", or for effect?

 

No. I've been trying to be kinder and gentler in my posts, with the end result being vagueness. I am definitely hearing it where it isn't meant to be heard. Alot.

 

editing, wouldn't "good" autotune use be undetectable?

 

I wouldn't know.... but I know that all of a sudden I'm hearing fish gargles everywhere in random "quesitonable" ..., no, not questionable, I'm hearing it being used to fix mediocre performances everywhere.

 

too much touring), the singer can't hit a certain note or phrase. Is it "OK" to use autotune to fix this? Would I do it? I'm not sure.

 

My personal belief: no!!!

 

What's the philosophical road that is on? The same one that says "hire a "keyboardist" to play back samples of things so it sounds "just like the record". It's that kind of substitution principle that has let music back slide. The era of musicianship being a *craft* is gone. The *impetus* to hone one's craft is the driving force behind truly *novel* things being created in music. It doesn't take as much to make a generic substitute.

 

Total slacker mentality rules these days, meanwhile the real guys do the behind the scenes work to keep the illusion running.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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Chip wrote:

>>> Total slacker mentality rules these days, meanwhile the real guys do the behind the scenes work to keep the illusion running. >>>

 

Oh how true Chip, it really is about time that the industry sorted this one!! If you can't do it for real you can't do it period!! No way should technology be used to create the illusion that someone can do somehing that they plainly cannot!! In our dreams perhaps.

 

Simon http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

...remember there is absolutely no point in talking about someone behind their back unless they get to hear about it...
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I saw Grammy Award winner Lee Ann Womack in concert last night. Fantastic show. I bought her 'I Hope You Dance' CD and here's an excerpt I found in the liner notes, for what it's worth:

 

"Long before I came to Nashville a custom was started of using 'studio musicians' to play on records. Honestly, I've questioned this custom many times and challenged it, too. Then I get in the studio, listen to these guys work, and realize there's a reason they always get the call. They're just great and that's all there is to it. I've come to feel that it's the artist's responsibility to make sure that her record doesn't sound like anyone else's. I'm fortunate enough to have a label and producer that let me try different things and different people on my records, and I've had a blast doing it this time. Thanks to all of the musicians and singers for your efforts, and to Jessie and Carie for making all of the arrangements. I know it probably seemed like every time you turned around I was flying someone in, flying somebody else out, switching schedules around, replacing, redo-ing and generally running everybody ragged: Thank you for your help."

 

I might add that her band was just superb. She had a fiddle player that just has to be one of the best.

 

Her two guitarists... one had four guitars, the other played five.

 

(Lineup: Lee Ann, bass, lead guitar, rhythm guitar, keyboards, steel guitar, fiddle, drums)

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There is a generic Nashville sound that may be the result of relying on studio muscians. I think they get the gigs because they can zero in fast on something that works without the session bogging down on creative issues. The singers aren't interesting in these issues so the result is a paint by numbers sound. The production even sounds generic. Maybe this is just the stuff I hear on country radio. I will add that I don't find these faults in the Dixie Chicks or a few other popular artists.

 

I think having a band with good muscians allows for something more substantial. They spend a little time weighing the harmonies and counterpoint before recording.

 

There is another side of the coin, however. Bruce Springsteen went through a phase where he only gave his band a brief opportunity to learn the song so they wouldn't over play their parts. How much can you do with "Glory Days" anyway?

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Great topic! This isn't guitar, but, on the first KISS reunion tour, the drummer was so exhausted the gig before Nashville, that they would have cancelled if it weren't for the drum tech's ability to fill in. To my knowledge, they didn't hide this fact despite the makeup. On Guitars first album of their, "practicing musicians," Steve Vai only showed up on someone else's tune under the name-de-plume, Reckless Fable. On the same album, there was a question mark, I believe, next to the piano player/background vox on Jeff Baxter's live cut of Steely Dan's Bodhistava. It was Donald Fagen.

 

As for Nashville, nobody is attempting to deceive the public about the use of session players vs. the live bands. Yes, session musicians can dial up sounds and play the parts well more quickly than most of the live bands. This doesn't mean the live bands aren't extremely talented. They are. I certainly applaud the Dixie Chicks for using their considerble playing talents on the records. I have no problem with finding songs through publishing if you can't write your own, but when you can write like the Chicks, or Vince Gill, or Alan Jackson, do it! (For that matter, do you think the players on a Don Henley or Kenny Loggins album are the guys who go on tour with them? The correct answer is sometimes. Many session players have no desire to tour for 6 months to a year and a half, even for their longtime buddies they play for.

 

As for autotune, it's been used constantly since it's inception a few years ago. Most records have it, at least, for small parts. I don't like no talent hacks getting away with constant correction, but I see very little difference between an autotuner and a compressor. Both are used to correct flaws in a performance. We accept that pop albums are not true representations of every take recorded. We can only hope artists don't blatantly cross the line of no musicianship propped up by technology.

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Originally posted by nrg music:

Oh how true Chip, it really is about time that the industry sorted this one!! If you can't do it for real you can't do it period!!

 

(at the risk of offending the more esteemed that may read this) music is always better when it's ahead of the people already in the industry. In other words, grunge was a good thing because for awhile there, I think it was out stripping the A&R guys because it snuck up on them. People didn't know exactly how to record it at first (Vig was the guy there), and for awhile some different things got through.

 

Rap at first was like that. The Beasties snuck in that way, PE. Back in the early 70's acid rock turned into metal.. etc. If the record industry really wanted to be "cutting edge", it's modus operandi should be "seek out that which you don't understand - but others appear to get" because that's where something can happen that will bust open if allowed.

 

The retro 80's metal thing is lurking around waiting for someone to figure it out. Electronica in the U.S. is where grunge was around about the time SG's _Louder than Love_ came out; it's basically mainstream, but the labels don't get it yet.

 

Hmm. I bet if one looked at the history of pop music they would find bubblegum bs happening in the nooks and crannies of these paradigm shifts.

Unless of course this pattern has reached an ultimate conclusion, which I think it may possibly have done.

 

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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LiveMusic wrote:

 

>A friend of mine's sister is best friends with the wife of one of the biggest stars ever in the history of country music. We get a lot of inside scoop from her. One thing my friend has said to me for years is that it is VERY common for band members to be replaced by studio musicians to do the deal for the recording sessions. Not like it takes a musician not showing up or being sick... that it's just SOP. (Standard Operating Procedure.) <

 

Hey, Guys:

 

It is unfortunately a political nightmare to try to make it in Nashville as a musician. The town is full of some of the most talented musicians that I have ever met.

 

95% or more of the music released out of Nashville has studio musicians playing, when there may be a better qualified, technically or musically, musician that plays live with the artists.

 

Of course the studio musicians are no slouches. That is not what I am saying and this is not the issue. The majority of the major labels will take an artist that they sign (that already has a killer "play-ready" CD) and go back into the studio and spend big bucks to re-do, re-produce, and sometimes re-write songs. Unfortunately many times the re-make does not catch the creative spontaneity of the original.

 

When these major labels go into the studio, they will primarily use the Nashville A-Team or most referred to as The Players. This team consists of Eddie Bayers (drums), Paul Franklin (steel guitarist), John Hobbs (keys), Michael Rhodes (bass) and Brent Mason (guitars).

 

To break into the A list is rare. To break into the B team is equally difficult. These are just the facts.

 

Just thought folks should know.

 

By the way, the guys that are The Players are tremendous guys with hearts of gold and *do* deserve the credit due them. To learn more about The Players, go to:

www.country.com/tnn/players/tnn-special-f.html

 

 

 

This message has been edited by djarrett on 04-12-2001 at 01:28 AM

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Ummm, the year that Roger Waters got 'best bass player of the year' award (I think it was for the 'Wall') it turns out that David Gilmore actually played a bunch of the bass parts.

 

Also, a very young Nigel Tufnel actually played many of the lead parts for the Rutles which were credited to Stig.

 

I think Auto-Tune is fine for a syllable here and a held note there, but using it for whole phrases or (gulp) an entire vocal part is a sin not unlike factory farming.

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Originally posted by DC:

Also, a very young Nigel Tufnel actually played many of the lead parts for the Rutles which were credited to Stig.

 

Actually, while I know that is a joke and the Rutles were a (great) joke, I think a guy named Ollie Halsall played on that stuff - and his playing was *not* a joke, sort of like Dimeola meets Holdsworth believe it or not. The most intense live shredding I've heard is a bootleg of a Tempest show in the early 70's with Halsall and Allan Holdsworth going at it...

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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