working with drummers

[THOR_dup2]

After butting heads with my drummer all weekend at band practice and making little headway with him I have finally gone off the deep end. In an attempt to better understand where these freaks are coming from I actually went out and bought a pair of sticks, a practice pad and a couple of good method books. Yes, the unthinkable has happened. I'm going to learn to play the drums (please God forgive me). I want to see how the beast approaches a musical situation. You know, see what makes him tick. Rather diplomatic of me huh? If he wasn't one of my best drinkin' buddies I'd just kick him out and pick up a drum machine but unfortunately that's not an option. I have to work with what I've got.

 

Have I gone too far? Should I see a therapist? Have I actually become one of them?

 

What does this have to do with a Guitar forum? I can't be the only axe-slinger to have encountered an undisciplined, bashing goon of a drummer such as mine. I learned a long time ago sometimes you gotta break 'em like a horse. And in most cases my methods have been successful. I've become the worlds greatest air drummer as a result of my years of working with these strange beasts. This guy just has me baffled though.

 

The question: How do you tell someone they suck and need to take lessons and not lose a friend?

 

I'd also like some input on the whole "guitar player/drummer" relations thing.

[Tedster]

How do you tell someone they suck and need lessons? Diplomatically...mention other drummers who have done it "and look what it did for their chops"...you don't have to say they suck. Everyone can improve. Play on their vanity somehow.

[THOR_dup2]

Thanks Tedster. The whole vanity angle is brilliant! Usually a good old fashioned "calling out" works. Not with this guy. I guess the question to be asked is... "Are you in this band because you are a drummer? Or are you a drummer because you are in this band?" If I'm willing to go to the dark side of the force to learn the drums the least he could do is take a couple lessons.

[KHAN]

>>>I actually went out and bought a pair of sticks, a practice pad and a couple of good method books. Yes, the unthinkable has happened. I'm going to learn to play the drums (please God forgive me).

-----

I don't know if it will help you understand the mind of a "freak" but it will make you a better musician.

 

>>>If he wasn't one of my best drinkin' buddies I'd just kick him out and pick up a drum machine but unfortunately that's not an option.

-----

That's a tough one. You have to decide how important your music is to you. By the level of your frustration, my guess is that it means alot.

 

>>>What does this have to do with a Guitar forum?

----

Hmm.......Good question........Just kidding. Where else can you find more people who can relate to this topic than here ?

 

>>>The question: How do you tell someone they suck and need to take lessons and not lose a friend?

----

Record rehearsal, and play him the tape... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

 

>>> I learned a long time ago sometimes you gotta break 'em like a horse. And in most cases my methods have been successful.

-----

When that doesn't work , try this... http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/diablo/WHAXATK.GIF

[Tedster]

>>Record rehearsal, and play him the tape...

 

Yes, follow Khan's advice...great one.

 

The problem with a good ol' fashioned "calling out" is that it puts the other party on the defensive.

 

What exactly about his playing don't you like? Does he rush, drag, suffer in the fills department, miss breaks? All of the above?

 

This topic is close to me, as I'm of the opinion (sorry, fellow guitarists) that the drummer and singer are the two most important people in the band. If either of them suck, the band sucks...period. Not that the other members aren't important, just that lack of talent in the aforementioned areas will stick out dismally. If you get drummers coming up to you at gigs and saying "you need a new drummer" give 'em a shot. So, I'd say it's worth really getting the drummer up to speed.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by THOR:

such as mine. I learned a long time ago sometimes you gotta break 'em like a horse. And in most cases my methods have been successful.

 

That's not going to work with anyone good enough to actually bother with.

 

Drummers are easy - you just have to pick the right one with prior knowledge of what they're about and hope it works with what you're about. Otherwise - it's a very ex-horse.

 

The question: How do you tell someone they suck and need to take lessons and not lose a friend?

 

You don't. If they're your friend they don't suck; you just move on.

 

Don't learn drums. It will seriously ruin you, you'll probably get more done if you're ignorant of the process. Or at best you'll eternally be flustered.

 

I'm utilizing about 4 drummers in my area for some projects I'm working on. It's open ended; I'm going to record them playing some of my music that I think will work with their styles. They're all complete pros, but I would try to get one to do what the other does, or even *exactly* what I would want them to do, since they'll never hear it exactly that way.

 

I've resigned myself to realizing I would have to simultaneously hire Vinnie Coliauta, Stew Copeland, Gary Husband, Clyde Stubblefield and Nick Mason - not to mention a bunch of dead guys like Bonham and Art Blakely - to *really* do it right. Which is currently impossible for me, SO that makes it easier to sort of try to go with the flow.

 

At least that's what I'm telling myself.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[KHAN]

>>>Don't learn drums. It will seriously ruin you, you'll probably get more done if you're ignorant of the process. Or at best you'll eternally be flustered.

-----------------

Chip, I couldn't disagree more. How can ignorance ever be the preferred answer. I wasn't under the impression Thor was going to quit guitar and become a drummer, but IMO you can never have too much knowledge.

Peace

[Tedster]

Personally, I agree with the Khanster on this one. Being multifaceted never hurt the likes of McCartney, Rundgren, or any one of a number of other people. My brother in law is a decent bass player. I only recently realized that he's pretty good on the drums, too.

 

I'm a guitar player, but I've got a tenor sax in my house staring at me, challenging me. One of these days I'm gonna put on my Coltrane wannabe hat...hehehehe. As if I could ever remotely approach that, but, we've all gotta have idols, y'know...

[KHAN]

Ted said:

>>>Personally, I agree with the Khanster on this one.

--------------

Thanks Ted.

Pretty sage advice for a ToysR us kid who doesn't want to grow up......don't ya think ? http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net4/jump.gif ..... http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net4/peach_md_wht.gif ..... http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net4/popworm.gif ..... http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net4/pacscat.gif ..... http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net4/trq_md_wht.gif ..... http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net4/orb.gif ..... http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net4/icon16.gif ..... http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net7/beerchug.gif

 

 

This message has been edited by KHAN on 02-21-2001 at 06:54 AM

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by KHAN:

Chip, I couldn't disagree more. How can ignorance ever be the preferred answer. I wasn't under the impression Thor was going to quit guitar and become a drummer, but IMO you can never have too much knowledge.

 

Because - if you learn how, and really study it, you'll know what you want the drum part to be exactly. Then, you'll never find a drummer either A) capable of playing it or B) willing to subsume themselves to a "guitar player".

 

I would bet that 90% of all successful writing situations with a drummer involves the drummer being allowed to do what they feel. Pick the right drummer and there's no problem. If you pick the wrong one and have to explain what's going on - to the point of dictating a certain beat - it's doomed one way or another. Unless like I said, your name is Gordon Summner and you can afford to have Vinnie sitting around waiting to do your bidding... and at *that* point he's probably going to do what's coolest anyhow.

 

Learn to play drums, but know when to stop.

 

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Tedster:

Personally, I agree with the Khanster on this one. Being multifaceted never hurt the likes of McCartney, Rundgren, or any one of a number of

 

But McCartney and Rundgren get to pick whoever they want to play drums....

 

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[KHAN]

Chip wrote :

>>>Because - if you learn how, and really study it, you'll know what you want the drum part to be exactly. Then, you'll never find a drummer either A) capable of playing it or B) willing to subsume themselves to a "guitar player".

------------------

Chip, I can see how this could be a problem. I'm lucky in that the drummer in my band is able to write creative parts that fit the songs very well. And when I have a specific part in mind, we always seem to work together well. Making the final arrangement better than if he had done it all himself, or if I had charted it for him. After reading about Thor's problems, I guess I have been pretty fortunate.

 

 

This message has been edited by KHAN on 02-21-2001 at 12:32 AM

[rushtribute]

It simply can't be done, they all die on you like in Spinal Tap!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gifor they get girl friends that have the Yoko Syndrome, no matter how you slice it you're toast.

 

Cheers!!!!

[Lee Flier]

Wow... I don't know what to say, because I love drummers. I've never had a problem finding a great one, and MOST of the ones I've worked with have had a great attitude too (with one notable exception that I can think of). And yes, I play a bit of drums. I think it helps me to communicate better with drummers and also to have more appreciation for what they do. It's easy to play the drums, but it's DAMN HARD to play the drums WELL. I think there are too many other musicians who don't realize this. If learning to play the drums a bit is what it takes to find out, so be it! I did.

 

On the subject of guitar player/drummer relations, I also feel that no guitarist has a right to bitch about a drummer's time or feel if you as a guitarist have no time or rhythmic feel yourself. It's hard for a drummer to be inspired when he's playing with a guitarist who's all over the place - just as hard as it is for a guitarist to be inspired by a drummer who's all over the place. If you want to get along better with your drummer, learn to be a better rhythm guitarist. And let the drummer participate in working up arrangements too - a lot of times he will have a better idea than you do of what makes a song groove.

 

I have a great relationship with drummers and attract great drummers because I'm all about the groove as a guitarist, and we play off each other big time and make it fun. Also, as someone else said, stroking somebody's ego never hurts. Most drummers have flamboyant personalities and want attention. It's amazing how loyal and hardworking and dedicated many of them can become if you simply GIVE them that attention, compliment them when they do something cool, ask for their input on songs, and instead of telling them they sucked on something, just say "I'm hearing this a little differently - can we try something else?" Or "The time needs to be more consistent on this tune - something isn't working. What can we do to make it easier to hear each other, do I need to drop back to the rhythm part here?" The drummer at that point might even say, "No, my timing just is sucking, I need to work on that."

 

Taking responsibility for something not working, and taking the time to bolster your bandmates' egos, rather than being accusatory, never hurts. Most musicians are really pretty sensitive and most of us know what it feels like trying to succeed against the odds, without much money or support. So I figure the least we can do is support each other. If somebody can't do that, if they are constantly belittling everybody else in the band, I don't want to work with them. I don't mind being critical in order to improve the music - you have to do that to be good - but there's a way to say "this song or arrangement could be better" without saying "you suck".

 

I have worked with a lot of inexperienced or undisciplined musicians. Some of them get better with time and encouragement, some don't. I give them a chance if they seem to have raw talent, and after awhile I decide that either they have improved and they have the will, or they don't and they will never improve. If I don't think it will ever get better, I just don't work with them anymore. Belittling somebody you are in a band with or having no respect for them, to me, is totally useless. And usually it means you have little respect for yourself or you wouldn't play with somebody like that. I think either you should work with somebody and be respectful and positive, or you shouldn't work together at all.

 

--Lee

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Wow... I don't know what to say, because I love drummers. I've never had a problem finding a great one,

 

That's because most of the great ones from my town move up the road to YOUR town!

 

I think a friend of mine - A FORMER AUGUSTAN - is working with Adam Nitti and Bill Hart in Atlanta now; if you get a chance check him out, I don't know if he's gigging with them yet. Great drummer - IN *your* TOWN!

 

One of the few drummers that I haven't had to explain much to, very Coliauta-esque. Oh well. One other guy I know who is good at that thing has the initials J.C. and used to play with Barry Richman: ALSO in Atlanta...

 

 

..and right now one guy that's helping me to some stuff on the fly is limited due to the fact that he's constantly touring all over the planet with "A Historically Famous Big Name". On the other hand, a room mate is a great rock drummer - but as such is playing in 2 other bands and is soon about to be hung up recording with "A Very Recent Top 10 Engineer" in - guess where? ATLANTA.

 

and MOST of the ones I've worked with have had a great attitude too (with one notable exception that I can think of)

 

Ah, but see in your city there's an order of magnitude more drummers than in my town. Augusta is a guitar town; a good drummer is a commodity, bands are built around maybe.. hmm... a circle of about 10 or so good drummers. Everyone knows everyone else one way or another, everyone has a related history.

 

Additionally, because Augusta has such a screwed up club scene, the good drummers are geared towards thinking in those terms. Which means no one is game for playing anything resembling fusion, or "nontraditional" blues. At least not without a great deal of coercion.

 

 

So drummer politics I think revolves around the social dynamic of the town you're in. Some towns are drummer towns, some are guitar towns, some bass towns; and the way the music scene there works has a big impact as well.

 

It's easy to play the drums, but it's DAMN HARD to play the drums

 

I learned to play well enough to know that A) I could do it professionally if I wanted to and B) it's way more fun than should be allowed. You get to sit down the entire gig and beat on things, for crying out loud...

 

instead of telling them they sucked on something, just say "I'm hearing this a little differently - can we try something else?"

 

There's only a problem if you've picked the wrong drummer or the part is over their head. I worked with a drummer in a fusion band for a while who was pretty good, although he had let his chops sag a bit... Brought in a demo of a tune that had drum parts worked out on it; I didn't tell him he had to play it like that, I just let him hear it.

 

The bass player already knew his parts, no problem, we're ready to go....

 

Instead, this guy REFUSED to play anything remotely like what I had as a drum part on this tape.

 

We spent hours while he fooled around with subdividing it, changing the feel, playing with the tempo, anything to avoid playing what I had on the tape.

 

Eventually the evening wound up with him more or less morphing into playing WHAT I HAD ON THE TAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE, but with inarticulate accents stuck in there for creative effect. I don't have time for that, that's just ego getting in the way.

 

Likewise, the guys I mentioned above at the beginning of this post are quite a bit above that guy's (current) level; I've never had any problems with them, they take my parts and work with them, add their own thing without drastically altering things (usually). No problems.

 

You have to pick great drummers. You can maybe polish a turd, but you can't polish a drummer.

 

In fact... I've played more hours at gigs with the "Global" drummer mentioned above than have actually spoken to him. Nothing much has to be said, I know what he's going to do in a general situation and I'm not going to try to get him to do something he's not into. Works out.

 

Except for the part about not being on the same continent most of the time. There's always complications...

 

Or "The time needs to be more consistent on this tune - something isn't working. What can we do to make it easier to hear each other, do I need

 

That's another thing: each drummer has certain tempos they prefer and gravitate to, in general. Again, it's usually better to let them flow into the tempo that works for them than the other way around. It's almost like each drummer has 3 or 4 target tempi, and the further they get away from there the less grooving it will be.

 

[/b]

[Lee Flier]

LOL Chip... well I agree there are some places where it's going to be harder than others to find good drummers. But, funnily enough, I hear from a LOT of band leaders here in Atlanta that it's so tough to find good drummers. And when I lived in L.A. fercryinoutloud, I heard the same thing. So I had to conclude that a lot of people just don't love their drummers enough. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Actually good percentage of the good drummers here that I know are from Florida, for some reason. They must be moving out of Florida because they can't find bands there that they want to work with.

 

So if you live in a small town and you know any great drummers, your mission is to entice them to want to stay there. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Or else, if they move, follow them! One killer drummer I know here, he moved up from Florida, and a few months later his former frontman moved here too! He (the frontman) was smart enough to know he was never gonna find another drummer like that in Tallahassee. And I'm glad they both moved here, they have a great band here now.

 

--Lee

[THOR_dup2]

KHAN-"Record rehearsal, and play him the tape..."

 

Yeah, it's time for a pow-wow/listening session

 

Dude you are lord of the icons...

 

Tedster-

"What exactly about his playing don't you like? Does he rush, drag, suffer in the fills department, miss breaks? All of the above?"

 

All of the above. The real problem is not his skills it's his lack of focus on what's happening around him. He doesn't have the ability to communicate with or play off of the other musicians when it's obvious to everyone else where the music is going. It becomes frustrating to have to explain the dynamics of every section of the tune. I did make a little headway last night though. We established a system of signals for dynamics that even a chimp could underdstand. It worked out fairly well. At least the guy is humble enough to take instruction from an overbearing guitar player. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

 

Lee Flier-

 

"If learning to play the drums a bit is what it takes to find out, so be it! I did."

 

I hear ya. I'm glad to hear that someone else is off their rocker enough to learn the drums. I'm sure once my drum skills are up to par I'll have a deeper appreciation for the beast within.

 

 

"I have a great relationship with drummers and attract great drummers because I'm all about the groove as a guitarist, and we play off each other big time and make it fun."

 

I think by reading my response to Tedster you'll see what I'm dealing with. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/mad.gif If my drummer was up to the level of musicianship you are referring to I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place. I grew up with a very talented drummer for a brother and he spoiled me rotten, he just knew what to do and when to do it. Ahhhh I long for those days.

 

thanks for the input folks

[THOR_dup2]

Well it's a regular Ga lovefest on this thread. I too hail from the empire state of the south. I moved to Hollywood two years ago but Athens is still my home.

 

Hey Chip! I think I played in a club in Disgusta http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/tongue.gif a few times called Squeaky's Tip Top. Does that rotten hole still exist? I remember some cock-eyed freaky guy staring at the band from a dark corner the whole time. We always seemed to have some sort of "David Lynch" moment every time we played there.

[Lee Flier]

Thor: WHY in the world did you leave GA for HOLLYWOOD? I did the exact opposite, in '92, and boy am I glad! I wouldn't go back to Hell Lay for all the tea in China... or even all the iced tea in Georgia!

 

Oh yeah, and a lot of the great drummers I knew out there have moved too. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Get outta there before it's too late!

 

--Lee

[Tedster]

>>I think by reading my response to Tedster you'll see what I'm dealing with. If my drummer was up to the level of musicianship you are referring to I wouldn't have started this thread in the first place. I grew up with a very talented drummer for a brother and he spoiled me rotten, he just knew what to do and when to do it. Ahhhh I long for those days.

 

Well, Mr. Thor...I think you've answered your own question here. Sometimes it works out best that way. As your drummer, the guy is a great friend. So, perhaps it's time for your bass player to start jamming with another drummer, and just happen to ask you to come along to one of the sessions.

[THOR_dup2]

Lee Fleir,

 

I love it here. It's always summer time. 95% of the time I step out of my house in the morning i'm looking at a perfect day. Non stop beautiful weather does alot for the psyche. I see no reason to live anywhere else.

 

It's the middle of Feb!

http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/Los_Angeles_CA_US_f.html

[Lee Flier]

Actually Thor, I think our high in Atlanta was higher than yours today! It's been like spring the past couple of weeks!

 

But, I never liked the weather in CA anyway. Same thing all the time, BORING! Except for a lot of smog and a few earthquakes and brush fires thrown in. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

--Lee

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Florida, and a few months later his former frontman moved here too! He (the frontman) was smart enough to know he was never gonna find another drummer like that in Tallahassee. And I'm glad they both moved here, they have a great band here now.

 

One takes it for granted that there's great musicians everywhere. After talking to a number of Augusta transplants, it seems like Augusta/Atlanta is a little more blessed in that department than a lot of cities.

 

Regardless, I'm thinking of contacting my friends in your town to try to arrange some one-off drum tracking arrangements, since I can only manage so much here... Nothing can be easy it would seem.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald