Does the NBA suck or what?

[SF audio]

What a sorry state this league is in. You have incredibily talented individuals that can jump through the roof, yet can't make a bounce pass or play good help defense. They're too busy going one on five or complaining to the ref's..... The league is forced to market "stars" who are either reluctant or just don't handle prosperity well. Is there one guy who is a spokesman for the league? AI? Vince Carter? Kobe, Shaq? We've seen there acts, and it's already old and tiresome. It's come down to rooting for foreign players like Yau, whom the league should thank it's lucky stars that he didn't fall flat on his face.... And then there's the play. Every team pretty much plays the same offense set, if they even run an offense. Oh,I love it when teams say they are "going to run" like it's some new flavor of coffee that no one has tried. Hey guys, why don't you try playing just a tiny bit of defense while your at it? :rolleyes: Then the capper is the all-star weekend. A bunch of guys in an exclusive fraternity just "hangin" out, having a good time, and oh yeah, we gotta play a game. I watched 5 minutes of it and got bored. No cohesion, no defense, and worst of all, no passion. Just shoot the ball wherever you are. Game doesn't mean anything anyway. Just show a boatload of contempt for your fans, sponsors, and everyone who has ever played the game of basketball. Take me back to Doctor J, Magic and Bird. Hell even before that, to the 70's when 75% of the league was on coke. Fine by me, at least the hustled, even if it was chemical enhanced hustle. :D Not to worry - baseball starts soon. The smell of grass, the crack of the bat, optimism in the air. For the Yankees at least....

[Alndln]

I always felt that basketball was the most boring game on the planet,so what your saying is that is even more boring now? :eek:

[not coaster MODERATOR]

We have an ongoing NBA thread down in the KEYBOARD forum. Why don't you pop down there and vent a little? :wave:

[Dave Bryce]

[quote]Originally posted by SF audio: [b]Then the capper is the all-star weekend. A bunch of guys in an exclusive fraternity just "hangin" out, having a good time, and oh yeah, we gotta play a game. I watched 5 minutes of it and got bored.[/b][/quote]Too bad you didn't hang around to see the game go to double overtime... ;) dB

[Brakka]

Originally posted by SF audio: [b]What a sorry state this league is in. You have incredibily talented individuals that can jump through the roof, yet can't make a bounce pass or play good help defense. They're too busy going one on five or complaining to the ref's.....[/b] That does describe some players, but not Kidd, Pippen, Yao, Jermaine, Artest, Nash, Duncan, Stoudemire, Garnett, Kirilenko, Gasol, Ben Wallace, Nowitski, Harpring, Rashard Lewis, Webber, Bibby, Finley, or many others. [b]The league is forced to market "stars" who are either reluctant or just don't handle prosperity well. Is there one guy who is a spokesman for the league? AI? Vince Carter? Kobe, Shaq? [/b] There should be [i]one[/i] spokesman? [b]We've seen there [/b](their)[b] acts, and it's already old and tiresome. It's come down to rooting for foreign players like Yau[/b] (Yao)[b], whom the league should thank it's lucky stars that he didn't fall flat on his face....[/b] It's luck that he's good? [b]And then there's the play. Every team pretty much plays the same offense set, if they even run an offense. [/b] You think every teams' offense is the same? They are similar, but only because it's 5-on-5 with one ball. [b]Oh,I love it when teams say they are "going to run" like it's some new flavor of coffee that no one has tried. [/b] So you want half court sets all of the time? You're just complaining to complain now. [b]Hey guys, why don't you try playing just a tiny bit of defense while your at it? [/b] Alright, you don't like the zone. One can make an argument that it slows down the game. Wait, no they can't. :) I have to say that the 'Wolves' zone with KG out on the point spreading his wings is pretty cool, as is the passing and moving without the ball that has to happen to beat it. [b]Then the capper is the all-star weekend. A bunch of guys in an exclusive fraternity just "hangin" out, having a good time, and oh yeah, we gotta play a game. I watched 5 minutes of it and got bored. No cohesion, no defense, and worst of all, no passion. Just shoot the ball wherever you are. Game doesn't mean anything anyway. Just show a boatload of contempt for your fans, sponsors, and everyone who has ever played the game of basketball.[/b] So you want to end the All-Star game? For baseball too? And every other sport? Just don't watch it. [b]Take me back to Doctor J, Magic and Bird. Hell even before that, to the 70's when 75% of the league was on coke. Fine by me, at least the hustled, even if it was chemical enhanced hustle. :D [/b] You haven't watched a full season of '70s hoops since the 70's, I think you're remembering it wrong. It was great, but there are plenty of great things about basketball in this millennium, too. Kings/Lakers, Grant Hill drama, Artest/Wallace freakouts, Yao, Dalla$... plenty of things to keep me interested. I guess that's the thing- it keeps [i]me[/i] interested. Don't think that I'm dissing your opinion, I'm just countering with my own. I like baseball too (most people I know don't sit though an entire game like I do), but the NBA is my favorite. I enjoy the speed, the creativity, the drama, and the history. Again- I'm not saying you're wrong, just offering my own thoughts. And be careful if you check out that Keyboard Corner NBA thread- it's pretty much Lakers rule Lakers suck Lakers rule Lakers suck Lakers rule Lakers suck Lakers rule Lakers suck Lakers rule Lakers suck Lakers rule Lakers suck

[not coaster MODERATOR]

Lakers rule

[Brakka]

I saw you waiting to say that.

[Chip McDonald]

The All Star game was cool, the NBA *is* a class act, and it went into double overtime (although MJ almost one the game on a final fall away (great storybook end for him), Kobe was fowled in the last seconds...) It did start out slow, but I think that had more to do with what they'd been up to in Atlanta the night(s) before than anything else. Second half definitely wasn't boring. No one plays old school anymore because you *can't*. Those teams were great - back then. They'd get wiped out today, it has nothing to do with team play overcoming everything, the athleticism is on a different plane today and the old Celtics would be making turnovers left and right and having the ball stolen every other play trying to play like that in today's league. They certainly wouldn't get a shot off near the basket. Most all of the old school guys admit it - at least the ones that count, but of course you still have bozos like Bill Walton who think they can still go one on one with Kobe and win.... Besides, if you thought Mariah Carey's dress at half-time was boring you're dead.

[ViLo]

Win or loose I still like my Dallas Mavericks! :thu: :thu:

[ernest828]

I haven`t watched basketball in years (probably since `94). I`m tired of watching these guys put on their own shows and complaining about every call. Last night was an all Star game and to be fair there is never defense at one of these games in any sport so... The only time I watch b ball now is the Finals and its usually just the last 5 minutes. The joke is that no matter what the score in the first three quarters by the time those last 5 minutes some around you are looking at a 3-5 point difference. Ernest

[KenElevenShadows]

What was surprising is that there was actually some pretty tough defense in the second half, and especially in the two double-overtimes. Surprising because the All-Star game is usually a high-scoring affair with little defense. The commentators were wondering about the lob passes for jams. However, people like Kobe were doing simple bounce passes to get the work done. If you are looking for sound fundamentals, the All-Star game is not the place to look. It's a high-priced pick-up game. If you want fundamentals, look for good games, the playoffs, the WNBA, etc. I also see a lot of different kinds of defense. In one game, I'll see two or more defenders collapsing in on one person, switching defenders, zone, one-on-one, and more. I'd actually say that generally speaking, although there is definitely room for improvement, the NBA is exciting, vibrant, and still has very good basketball. Retired pros marvel at the intensity and athleticism of the new crop of players, and why not? These new guys are good. What I am a little surprised at is that players don't do hook shots more. That's a pretty difficult shot to stop, especially for taller players.

[Roto]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]Besides, if you thought Mariah Carey's dress at half-time was boring you're dead.[/b][/quote]I am with you on that one! She may have her problems, but filling out a dress is not one of them! :eek: :eek: :thu: I hope they bring back the skills competition they had on Saturday with the point guards. It was sort of like an obstacle course where they had to pass dribble and shoot. They just need to get more players into it. They only had four, but at least they got the two best ones in Kidd and Payton. I think the league is in pretty good shape considering Jordan is about to retire. Guys like Bryant, McGrady, Marion, Francis, Garnett and Nowitski have a lot of years ahead of them.

[SF audio]

Yes, there are great athletes who are stars in the league. But they are limited by the fact that most of their teammates know how to dunk, but little else. If Jason Kidd has another player near his ability on the Nets, it would be lights out. Kenyan Martin is a good player, but the rest of the guys show up one night and take the next one off..... Remember when you had teams in the 70's who would go all the way? Warriors in 75', Portland, Seattle in the late 70's. These were actual "teams", who had maybe one great player and the rest were fundamemtally solid. They got it done. And the arguement that the athletes today would blow them out of the water is suspect. Just look at the World games, where our US "all star" team lost three in a row to physically inferior foreign teams. It was clear that solid fundamentals won out over jumping ability. Even their coach, George Karl, was complaining about how the US is "soft" due to work habits, attitude, money, etc.... Guys are coming into the league too young. The learn basketball at the NBA level, and it shows.....

[Brakka]

Originally posted by SF audio: [b]Yes, there are great athletes who are stars in the league. But they are limited by the fact that most of their teammates know how to dunk, but little else. [/b] Okay, T-Mac. Most of his teammates only know how to dunk? Like who, Garrity? Miller? Armstrong? What about Garnett's T-wolves- do you think Troy Hudson can only dunk, and not shoot? I didn't even use the easy examples like Dallas, where every player can drive or hit a 3 at any time. [b]If Jason Kidd has another player near his ability on the Nets, it would be lights out. Kenyan Martin is a good player, but the rest of the guys show up one night and take the next one off.....[/b] You spelled Kenyon Martin wrong. You spelled Yao wrong earlier, too. I don't think you really know the NBA. Jefferson does not take a night off. His ft% sucks and he doesn't score big every game, but when he doesn't score he's still hustling and will get a block, two steals, and three assists. At small forward. And I'm forced to mention Scalabrine- he's not a starter or a star, but he doesn't take a night off [i]ever[/i]. [b]Remember when you had teams in the 70's who would go all the way? Warriors in 75', Portland, Seattle in the late 70's. These were actual "teams", who had maybe one great player and the rest were fundamemtally solid. They got it done. [/b] Present-day teams "go all the way" too. And they "get it done." Portland in '79 was "horrible" ;) , and the team still has some franchise record [i]lows[/i] from the championship season. You're right though, those were some great teams. Lenny Wilkens was a player/coach for both Seattle and Portland back when there were player/coaches. ... And you mentioned earlier that the All-Star game is [b]"a bunch of guys in an exclusive fraternity just "hangin" out, having a good time, and oh yeah, we gotta play a game. I watched 5 minutes of it and got bored. No cohesion, no defense, and worst of all, no passion."[/b] How can Ilgauskas, Jermaine, Nash, and Francis be considered any kind of "exclusive fraternity?" And can you score 37 points with Jermaine and Wallace trying to block every one of your shots and just be "hangin' out?" And "no passion?" I would define "no passion" as someone who only watches five minutes of a game and then disses it. This thread is becoming a good substitute for the Bush threads. As long as shadyb doesn't show up... :D L.S. ;)

[steadyb]

[quote]Originally posted by Brakka.: [b]As long as shadyb doesn't show up... :D L.S. ;) [/b][/quote]Hey!!! What the... :eek: :p :thu:

[Magpel]

Reagrding defense in the NBA and the common gripe people don't play any, I couldn't disagree more. Check out some ESP{N classics sometime. I was watching a championship between the Sixers and I forget who and was blown away to see that those cats could have a 20 foot jumper any time they wanted one. Defense has moved way out one the floor. My problem is the lack of great, mature teams that develop over years. Free agency, the slary cap, and the youth movement have hurt the NBA in this regard.

[SF audio]

"Okay, T-Mac. Most of his teammates only know how to dunk? Like who, Garrity? Miller? Armstrong? What about Garnett's T-wolves- do you think Troy Hudson can only dunk, and not shoot? I didn't even use the easy examples like Dallas, where every player can drive or hit a 3 at any time." Of course, I'm exaggerating a bit. Otherwise there would be no post :) I'll still say there's not a lot of "well rounded" players in the league" "You spelled Kenyon Martin wrong. You spelled Yao wrong earlier, too. I don't think you really know the NBA." Must need some spellin' lessons.... "Jefferson does not take a night off. His ft% sucks and he doesn't score big every game, but when he doesn't score he's still hustling and will get a block, two steals, and three assists. At small forward. And I'm forced to mention Scalabrine- he's not a starter or a star, but he doesn't take a night off [i]ever[/i]" This applies more to team effort. You need everyone hustling, which doesn't happen consistently enough... Present-day teams "go all the way" too. And they "get it done." Someone has to win. My point was that you aren't going to see a team of just good players win it all. The lakers are a perfect example. Two superstars with a cast of mediorcres. Will we ever see a team that has no player scoring above 20 points win it all? In this error of stat padding I don't think so... "How can Ilgauskas, Jermaine, Nash, and Francis be considered any kind of "exclusive fraternity?" And can you score 37 points with Jermaine and Wallace trying to block every one of your shots and just be "hangin' out?" If you are in the NBA, that's pretty exclusive. And no, I couldn't score 37 points. In fact, If I made one bucket they should be ashamed of themselves:) "And "no passion?" I would define "no passion" as someone who only watches five minutes of a game and then disses it." Take a look at the SI issue last week. Of those polled, only 37% had ANY interest in the NBA, and of that percentage only a few were hardcore. Something's not right in NBA hoopland. It's a stale game. Too many bad teams. It would be more interesting if you had parity similar to the NFL, when any team any year and do something (save the Bungles). And WAY TOO MUCH focus on the stars, and not team play, which I think is the biggest downfall. VERY few guys make their teams better by themselves. Kidd, Jordan come to mind. Too many guys like Antwoin (spelled right?) Walker and, uh, hate to say it....Kobe...

[Steve LeBlanc]

This thread is very dumb...what's the point? This IMO is the most entertaining basketball year since last year...do you play basketball? if not just STFU...ok? Anyone who's really followed the game knows that it just gets better every year. Rule changes can be debated...I'm not too happy with some of them (I don't like Zone defenses) and you can talk about officiating which is often questionable but to say these players aren't getting better is silly. Yeah Magpel...I know exactly what you're talking about...defense has evolved more than anything else in basketball...I think the same might be said for Football. Oh and Jordan wouldn't have put up the numbers he used to against today's defenses. ;) :D It's a game...it's fun if you pay attention to the game instead of listening to announcers and media hype (some of the radio show guys are really pathetic in their negativity...anything to get people to tune in I guess).

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]Two superstars with a cast of mediorcres[/quote]As opposed to One superstar and a bunch of mediocres that were the Chicago Bulls? Actually I have a problem with you calling any of these guys Mediocre...again consider Football as an analogy...Basketball is a team game, yes an individual effort is needed and you often need one guy to lead the scoring but that guy is able to do what he does because of his teammates. If you're talking about the Lakers...who's mediocre? That whole squad plays smart basketball when they're healthy...you couldn't just put any ole basketball player in the mix and expect the same results. The Dallas Mavs and Sacramento Queens are even more team oriented...sometimes the reserves actually play more minutes than the starters on those teams. Do I have to go on??

[SF audio]

[quote]Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc: [b] [quote]Two superstars with a cast of mediorcres[/quote]As opposed to One superstar and a bunch of mediocres that were the Chicago Bulls? Actually I have a problem with you calling any of these guys Mediocre...again consider Football as an analogy...Basketball is a team game, yes an individual effort is needed and you often need one guy to lead the scoring but that guy is able to do what he does because of his teammates. If you're talking about the Lakers...who's mediocre? That whole squad plays smart basketball when they're healthy...you couldn't just put any ole basketball player in the mix and expect the same results. The Dallas Mavs and Sacramento Queens are even more team oriented...sometimes the reserves actually play more minutes than the starters on those teams. Do I have to go on??[/b][/quote]You are using great teams as examples. That's easy enough. Look at the Clippers, nuggets, and Cavaliers at the bottom end, and the rest of the teams in the middle of the pack. You ever watch these teams? Occasionally (or rarely) they may play well, but you can count on the frequent tank jobs on the road. If you happen to root for the Sac Queens to beat up on everyone else, well good for you. If you are a fan in general and just like to see good play from most of the teams, you are S$%t out of luck. Go watch the Cavaliers play every night....oy.... Athletically, who can argue that the players today are the best ever. But that's part of the problem: athletic play can dominate, but it's not the ultimate deciding factor (unless you are Kobe and Shaq, but how many teams are?) You can't dunk on every play. I'm tired of seeing the shot clock winding down to 5 seconds and the guy with the ball ends up going one on five. This happens way too much. I say make a new rule: You can't shoot the ball yourself if you have it with less than 10 seconds to go on the shot clock. WOW!! Would that encourage passing or what??!! :eek: I'm suprised that more aren't in agreement with me. To say the league has advanced from the Bird/Magic days is a tough sell. I think it's gone backwards :cry:

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]Teams need to say together for 5-7 years to develop the kind of Chemistry that some of the old teams used to have. But we know that isn't going to happen.[/quote]well you do kinda have a point there but even still a lot of teams currently playing have kept their starting 4-5 intact for a few years. I think you're over-exaggerating the importance of that a bit anyway. [quote]But that's part of the problem: athletic play can dominate, but it's not the ultimate deciding factor (unless you are Kobe and Shaq, but how many teams are?) You can't dunk on every play. I'm tired of seeing the shot clock winding down to 5 seconds and the guy with the ball ends up going one on five.[/quote]Again this comes down to defense...a smart basketball team finds ways to benefit from what the defense gives them...sometimes the highest percentage play is to let your best shooter run an isolation. As far as the shot clock is concerned...waiting until the last few seconds to shoot isn't bad basketball...it's smart basketball...if after 20 seconds the defense hasn't made a big mistake the best player has to create it himself...but if you don't give your offense 20 seconds to try and confuse the D...how will you ever get any easy baskets? If you want to discuss the pros and cons involved in the evolution of NBA basketball I'm down with that but you just aren't making sense here.

[Steve LeBlanc]

oh and yes I've seen a lot of Clipper games...their season is a travesty...it's not for lack of talent really...partly but you can't blame it all on that. And FWIW...I saw the Clippers beat the New Jersey in OT, San Antonio and Sacramento this year...games like that are exciting to watch even if the Clippers season is a failure. Great basketball.

[SF audio]

"Again this comes down to defense...a smart basketball team finds ways to benefit from what the defense gives them...sometimes the highest percentage play is to let your best shooter run an isolation. As far as the shot clock is concerned...waiting until the last few seconds to shoot isn't bad basketball...it's smart basketball...if after 20 seconds the defense hasn't made a big mistake the best player has to create it himself...but if you don't give your offense 20 seconds to try and confuse the D...how will you ever get any easy baskets? If you want to discuss the pros and cons involved in the evolution of NBA basketball I'm down with that but you just aren't making sense here.[/QB][/QUOTE] Sorry if I'm not making sense to you. I'm just pointing out observations. You say the offense needs to confuse the defense, and should take as much time as possible to do so. Yeah, but how many times do you see that cool, tricky pass executed with 2 seconds left? Hardly ever. With five seconds it becomes desparation time, and the playbook goes out the window. That's clear to see in most NBA games. And if your best chance is to let your best player break it down with five seconds to go, he better be Kobe or Jordan. For a lot of teams they just don't have that guy.

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]And if your best chance is to let your best player break it down with five seconds to go, he better be Kobe or Jordan. For a lot of teams they just don't have that guy.[/quote]hehe...well I still think you're underestimating the talent in the league (and contradicting yourself in the process). There's a lot of guys who can do what Kobe or Jordan do...really...yeah KB and MJ are special but it's not like they're the only unstoppable players out there and just about every good starting NBA player is near unstoppable when guarded 1 on 1. I watch a lot of basketball...I'm just not seeing what you're seeing.

[Brakka]

Originally posted by SF audio: [b]Too many guys like Antwoin (spelled right?)[/b] Nope, you spelled Kobe right, though. :D :D [b]You are using great teams as examples. That's easy enough. [/b] Yeah, but I didn't, though. I used mediocre/bad teams. [b]Look at the Clippers, nuggets, and Cavaliers at the bottom end, and the rest of the teams in the middle of the pack. You ever watch these teams? Occasionally (or rarely) they may play well, but you can count on the frequent tank jobs on the road. [/b] Uh, bad teams are bad. [b]...You can't dunk on every play. [/b] There are few players that have dunks as even [i]half[/i] of their shots, let alone "all the time." I do realize that you're exaggerating, but knock it off. ;) :D [b]I'm tired of seeing the shot clock winding down to 5 seconds and the guy with the ball ends up going one on five. This happens way too much. I say make a new rule: You can't shoot the ball yourself if you have it with less than 10 seconds to go on the shot clock. WOW!! Would that encourage passing or what??!! :eek: [/b] If the shot clock is running down, that means the opposing team is using good defense. You can't argue that. If they are keeping a guy from shooting, then their defense worked. And regarding your "new rule," I don't like it. I've watched probably 60 games on tv this season (none in person yet this year), and I can think of plenty of times where someone drove or shot when the clock is running down and hit a great dramatic shot. Conversely (shoe pun ;) ) sometimes they miss that shot, and that's great drama too. Sometimes it's Jordan or Stack, sometimes it's Parker or Wells. Good or bad player, good or bad shot- they made the choice based on what was happening in the game, and that's basketball. [b]I'm suprised that more aren't in agreement with me. To say the league has advanced from the Bird/Magic days is a tough sell. [/b] I personally don't compare today's anything to yesteryear's anything. But since you started it, I'd say they're about the same. If I had to pick one, I'd pick today's game because it's happening right now and I need to watch to see how it turns out. [b]Teams need to say together for 5-7 years to develop the kind of Chemistry that some of the old teams used to have. But we know that isn't going to happen. [/b] I don't believe that it is required to have a team with all of the same players for 5-7 years. The Bulls were not the exact same team for all 6 trophies. Neither were the great Celtic or Piston teams. That old Blazer team you mentioned wasn't together for very long. Should they just not have a draft? Should Van Exel have stayed a Laker? Should Utah force Harpring to only rebound and pass to Malone? Change is inevitable, in both the small & big picture. Teams change, players change, the game changes. Deal with it.

[SF audio]

Things do change, but has the NBA changed for the better? Listen to many ex-players, announcers, and fans, and many will say it's not a better game. I guess we equivocate athletic ability as being "better", and in that case it is. Who wants to watch women's basketball, although if they were equal on the physical ability level of men, they would probably smoke the NBA'ers!!! That would be a riot :D I think the biggest change in the game is the physical nature of the defense played now. There's more contact compared to the COKE days of the 70's. Maybe that wins, but it hardly makes for an entertaining game. Personally, I'd rather see 130-125 games compared to the 80-75 clunkers that are routinely put up today. The whole point is to MAKE shots, right?? :confused:

[waveyl]

Lakers suck

[waveyl]

The current state of basketball (as described by the pesimistics) kind of reminds me of the current state of music. Everybody knows there's something wrong with it, they just can't put their finger on it, and don't know how to make it better. lavi.

[mark_dog]

yes

[SF audio]

[quote]Originally posted by waveyl: [b]The current state of basketball (as described by the pesimistics) kind of reminds me of the current state of music. Everybody knows there's something wrong with it, they just can't put their finger on it, and don't know how to make it better. lavi.[/b][/quote]I can think of a lot of things to make it better: 1 - minimum age 21. Make em' play a bit longer in college so they are more ready. 2 - tighter defense rules. Eliminate the thugery. Call those fouls - eventually the guys will adjust. Stop the goon mentality that keeps some guys in the league longer than they should be. 3 - Make it a shooters league!!! So what if you lose a little bit on defense. Make those damn shots!! Make the three pointer worth four!! 4 - Eliminate that stupid rule on zone defenses that does not allow a guy to camp out in the lane for more than 3 seconds. So what? Let him stay there, that puts a premium on shooters, which is what the game of basketball is all about, no? 5 - Practice shooting!! I can't stress that enough!! Who wants to watch teams shoot 34%? How damn boring. You can say that has something to do with defense, but my new rules will ease that a bit....