gibson prices,epiphone quality

[bluedawgmail.com]

has anyone else noticed how crappy this new gibson stuff is? don't crucify me,i'm just saying that i've been playing a lot of new gibson guitars in the stores and i always end up purchasing another brand. maybe it's just me,but i recently got into slide guitar and resonators. i tried some of the gibson roundneck dobros against the epiphone resonators.the epiphones sounded and played better. being a nurse i thought to myself,"maybe i"m finally going off the deep end" so tested some new gibson les pauls against the epiphone les pauls. i noticed that the only difference is the pickups,hardware and price. now i'm a professional guitarist, have been for 13 years. have owned 1968 les paul custom,1970 les paul custom and a couple of 1960's les paul standards. i"ve been reading the posts from all you people who own vintage guitars and i respect and admire you all. am i crazy or does it seem that gibson has just about priced themselves out of the new guitar market. all the dealers within a 200 mile radius of here have tons of new gibsons that just won"t sell while the epiphones have sold so well this year that all the dealers are telling me that epiphone is out of guitars,they didn"t make enough to meet the demand of the buyers. we all know that vintage gibsons and fenders rule but the new products that these two companies are putting out just play and sound like crap to me....what do you people think?

[Uh Clem]

I have lately bought as ES-335, Les Paul Custom, and SG - all vintage re-issues - not cheap at all, but very fine - beautifully made and they play like a dream.

 

Guitars made like that - nice wood and fninsh, fancy bindings - just cost a lot - inflation can't leave a guitar at 1960s prices anymore - unless you cut corners.

 

Epiphone seems pretty junky - bolt on necks - dubious finishes and the like - they used to be nicer but seem to be relagated to econo guitarland these days. Although a very guitar abusive friend of mine got a deal on a double-neck SG Epiphone and it plays OK - he'll just bust it up anyway.

 

Some of the new Fenders are great also - I got an awesome Amer Deluxe P-Bass - a wonderful studio bass.

 

The Fenders are not as fancy (finish wise) as Gibsons so I think the cost increase has not been so much on their top lines. The ones I tried from Mexico have so far been disappointing.

 

Guild is making some nice guitars these days as well and the Rics seems to be hangin' in there too.

 

So many guitars, so little time....

[nhcomp45aol.com]

I tried out an Epiphone Thunderbird at a local music store.It weighs about 15 pounds less than my Gibson, I think it is made of balsa wood. Piece of crap.

[Lee Flier]

Well I agree bluedawg, I'm very happy that I'm not in the market for a new guitar. It may be necessary to charge the kind of prices Gibson does, in order to get good wood, but geez, some of the new Paul's are 3 times what I paid for my '52 back in 1984! OK, so I'd have to pay a lot more for the '52 now. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif But still, the prices really are through the roof. Though I've noticed that with a lot of things lately... the market is weird these days, the prices of some things just keep coming down, others keep going up. Hell, FOOD is too expensive these days.

 

Unfortunately I agree with others who are saying the Epiphones really don't cut it. I guess they are OK for someone who can't afford a Gibson and wants the next best thing, which would be understandable. Actually, an Epiphone was my first electric guitar when I was 15, and it wasn't that bad, but I graduated to a real Gibson 2 years later and the difference was extremely apparent. This was in the 70's, I imagine the difference might be even more pronounced now.

 

I don't really know what the answer is except to try and find a used, but not necessarily vintage, Gibson in good shape. My first Les Paul was a '75 Custom, which I bought in 1980. 5 years old wasn't old enough to be vintage, but wasn't new enough either to charge too much for it, so I got a good deal on it. I'm sure good deals on such guitars can still be had, especially if you're willing to put up with a few scratches or checks in the finish. It may take some patience, but it would be worth it. Heck, the only new guitar I EVER bought was my first one, an Ibanez acoustic, which I still have - it's actually a really nice guitar made of good wood. It's getting to be vintage now. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

One thing I WILL say though - both Gibson and Fender are much better now than they have been at times in the past, particular the late '70's and 80's. The quality just went straight out the window for a long time, especially with Fender. Nowadays even the cheaper Fenders are passable, and the reissue models are actually pretty nice and not overpriced. I would much rather be a kid buying a new guitar now than in the 80's. Heck, the Vox AC-30 has been reissued, Rickenbacker is going strong again and making nice guitars, things could really be a lot worse (and have been!).

 

--Lee

 

[This message has been edited by Lee Flier (edited 12-09-2000).]

[Fletcher]

A couple of years ago I was in the American Airlines Club bar [whatever the hell they call that thing] in Chicago. I was sitting at the bar sipping a bourbon and having a beer waiting on a woefully delayed flight to London.

 

The trip was 'unscheduled', so I was wearing the drop dead absolute worst clothing in the world to slide through 'customs and immigration' without hassle...but that's another story. Let's just say it was rather obvious that I worked in the music industry.

 

So...I'm sitting at the bar, watching the snow fall, and this guy comes up to me and asks if I'm 'industry'...I say yes, he tells me that he works for 'Gibson'. At this point, I was out of American Airlines 'drink tickets'...and being a cheap bastard, thought what the hell when he offered to buy a round of drinks.

 

As the evening progressed one drink turned into about 20...and considering he was on an expense account and I wasn't [another reason Gibson Guitars are so expensive these days, I'm not a cheap date when there's liquor involved]...continued to allow Gibson to graciously pick up our drink tab as the snow fell...and he started to piss and moan about how Gibson had stopped making guitars and was focusing on making "collectables". The best line he came up with was "I'm working for the goddamn Fraklin Mint of the music industry".

 

This is the main reason why Gibson instruments are so damned expensive. They're not really for playing, they're for collecting, selling and trading. The "major" artists that are playing 'new' Gibsons for the most part have the instruments given to them...there are an awful lot of 'endorsement deals' floating around, these keep the interest in the brand. It's actually a fairly brilliant marketing plan, it keeps the credibility high, the collectablility going, and the 'Yuppies' picking up collectables for their 'mid-life crisis'.

 

The dentist's that wanted to be a rock star in high school but had neither the talent nor the balls to accomplish that goal have purchased a 'Paul' a 'Marshall' a Roland VS-1680...and gets together once a week with his "Accountant" and "Computer Network Specialist" friends and they play "rockstar" for their 'once a quarter gig' at the local 'suburban rock establishment' so their wives will 'put out' for them when they get home...while they imagine it being 20+ years earlier...[hey, as mid-life crisis's go...that's one of the least expensive ways to have one...what the hell].

 

Gibson has effectively become the 'Harley-Davidson' of Guitars. If you look at Harley Davidson, they're *way* more interested in the 'boutiques' than the bikes. H-D "official motorclothes" are the main bread and butter these days...as the motorcycles become less adventerous, harder to modify, but more reliable, and *way* too expensive...another nearly perfect 'mid-life crisis investment'.

 

15 years ago if you walked into an H-D dealership you smelled 'exhaust and burnt oil'...now you smell new indoor/outdoor broadloom. They still have people with 'tattoo's behind the counter...but those people no longer ask you "what the fuck do you want"...now it's "how may I help you". A far more pleasant purchasing experience. H-D has gone as far as starting a national 'MC' called "HOG" [Harley Owners Group]...oh that's right, it's not a "Motorcycle Club" per se...but they do have 'patches' you can put on the back of your jacket...and 'sponsored events'...for those who wanna be bikers, but don't have the time. [FWIW, I'm no biker, I have friends who are, but I'm not one...I ride, I wrench, but I'm strictly part-time].

 

Since that chance meeting, I've noticed that the majority of the new 'Gibson product' I've seen has some 'collectable' aspect to it...my favorite being a "NASCAR Edition Les Paul"...what the fuck a Les Paul has to do with NASCAR is beyond me...but I'll be damned if they didn't make one. Much like a friend of mine's "Hard Rock Cafe Edition of an H-D FLHS"...things that shouldn't go together, but cross-marketing is a staple of todays marketing of yesterdays key brands.

 

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[nhcomp45aol.com]

Hey Fletch, If you need some good old fasioned fun head up to the Weirs Beach rally in June.

[bluedawgmail.com]

I HEAR YA FLETCHER!!!!

it's like this,when i buy a guitar, i buy the guitar not the name on the headstock.

who knows what the people at gibson are doing. i feel they are rolls royce wannabes.

but i've got news for them,when i pick up one of your overpriced les pauls and it won't stay in tune for 15 seconds. am i suppose to even think about laying down my hard earned cash for this piece of shit?

and the dealers act like the les paul is the best thing since nookie.

there are people out there who fall for the hype but not me...just sign me,laughing all the way to the bank.......bluedawg

[long2playyahoo.com]

Gibson- As a young guitarist in the 70's that name was Holy to me. My hero's played them and they were just so cool. Fletcher is right on with what he is saying. This is a stated goal of the current owner of Gibson- To be like Harley Davidson. It is an Icon name- A legend etc....

Great, if all you want is a wall hanging guitar shaped object. The current situation with Gibson is a joke.

 

I have probably played a couple of thousand different guitars over 25 years of being a player and working in the retail side of the gear business. And do you know what I've discovered? We are living in the greatest time in all of guitar building history. Who are these great builders? It is NOT Gibson or Fender Today!!!!

 

The great era of guitars from Gibson and Fender came when they were run by Visionary Guitar builders. At Fender, his name was Leo Fender. At Gibson, it was Ted McCarty. Great instruments come from great vision. You have to understand the instrument and the needs of the players. You have to be driven by a passion for the music and the instrument first. Not driven by money and market share first. Business issues are important. Do not get me wrong. When the business end is the only focus of the company then you get the current Gibson situation. Don't believe me? Go do some research for yourself. Check it out. Play a lot of guitars. Talk to dealers who have done business with them.

 

Look at the average Gibson guitar hanging in a music store. I see poor fret work, Orange peeled finishes, ugly detail work, etc on guitar after guitar. Heck, at the Arlington Vintage show two years ago in the Gibson Custom Shop booth I saw a L-5 Blonde with rough, crooked F holes!! On a $10,000.00 instrument!!!!! Crappy workmanship on guitars that are very costly and supposedly a Legend? Maybe Henry's goal is to be AMF era Harley-Davidson. I'm sorry if this comes across harsh, but I think this situation is totally bogus. I have personally seen guitars from Gibson that have been sent to stores with rejection slips from other dealers. Gibson just repacked the rejected guitar and sent it to another dealer hoping that sucker will take it. This is insulting!!!

 

As far as Epiphone goes. Comparing them to Gibsons is a waste of time. Gibson does not build these guitars!!! They are built by Samick in Korea. Samick is the world's largest guitar builder. Mass production, crank'em out , nobody will notice that we use cheap woods and hardware if we make them look enough like a Gibson. They build what Gibson wants them to build. They are built totally to meet certain price points in the market. It is Gibson's way of cashing in on the name appeal of their brand. They are not comparable products. This is totally a business, not a builder way of doing business. Does the world need inexpensive guitars? You bet! It needs GOOD inexpensive guitars. Check out what you get from a company like Godin ( built in Canada and the USA) for under $500.00 bucks versus the Epiphones, it is no contest.

 

So now that I've popped off, who are the visionary builders today? I think PRS, Don Grosh, Tom Anderson, Terry MacInturff, Bob Taylor, Richard Hoover ( Santa Cruz ), Charles Fox, Breedlove, Robert Godin, Steven Anderson, The guys at Warrior, and many more. Talk to someone like Paul Reed Smith face to face and you will discover what a visionary is. He was even smart enough to go look up Ted McCarty. Play a Don Grosh guitar and you will understand what a superb instrument is all about. I've never played anything better!! Look past the names and legends. Find guitars that help you discover your inner voice. Buy a guitar from a builder with a great heart. A builder who is passionate, humble, striving, knowledgeable and visionary. We are buying instruments, not freakin' coffee tables here. And if at the end of all that a new Gibson is what stirs your heart, then so be it. But at least go check out what is available in the great guitar world. We have choices.... Great important choices.

 

Peace,

Long2Play

 

[This message has been edited by long2play@yahoo.com (edited 12-11-2000).]

[Eddie57]

Yeah,I tend to agree with most of what has been said.I've played an occassional Gibson that was real nice,but usually price two or three times what I was willing to spend.Every Gibson I have owned [Les Paul,335 and a Blues Hawk],I seem to tire of in one or two years.I've been into buying USA Hamers and USA Washburns the last few years and I'm very happy with the results.My Hamer Studio Archtop and Hamer P-90 Special are awesome guitars,and I picked-up each in mint condition [$775.00 and $550.00 for each] for very little cash.My Washburn WM200 is also killer.Swamp Ash body,set Maple neck with Duncan Vintage Strat p/ups in neck/mid and a Duncan HB in the bridge position.I picked this one up in mint condition for $330.00 on ebay

[Eddie57]

Yeah,I tend to agree with most of what has been said.I've played an occassional Gibson that was real nice,but usually price two or three times what I was willing to spend.Every Gibson I have owned [Les Paul,335 and a Blues Hawk],I seem to tire of in one or two years.I've been into buying USA Hamers and USA Washburns the last few years and I'm very happy with the results.My Hamer Studio Archtop and Hamer P-90 Special are awesome guitars,and I picked-up each in mint condition [$775.00 and $550.00 for each] for very little cash.My Washburn WM200 is also killer.Swamp Ash body,set Maple neck with Duncan Vintage Strat p/ups in neck/mid and a Duncan HB in the bridge position.I picked this one up in mint condition for $330.00 on ebay

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by nhcomp45@aol.com:

Hey Fletch, If you need some good old fasioned fun head up to the Weirs Beach rally in June.

 

Gee, thanks for the invite...and here I've been going for the last decade uninvited. The nerve of me...

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[Jose Cobelas]

Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com:

 

The dentist's that wanted to be a rock star in high school but had neither the talent nor the balls to accomplish that goal have purchased a 'Paul' a 'Marshall' a Roland VS-1680...and gets together once a week with his "Accountant" and "Computer Network Specialist" friends and they play "rockstar" for their 'once a quarter gig' at the local 'suburban rock establishment' so their wives will 'put out' for them when they get home...while they imagine it being 20+ years earlier...[hey, as mid-life crisis's go...that's one of the least expensive ways to have one...what the hell].

 

 

Well, as a just-turned-forty-information-technologies-consultant I feel somehow touched by those words.

 

The music world seems to be full of either old pros, or young rock/techno-star wannabes who don´t seem to understand that some of us just want to make music for fun and pleasure...what are we supposed to do? Play golf? Watch TV and nurture our beerbellies? Roll over and die?

 

This web is called musicplayers.com, not musicpros.com (I just checked again).

 

Have fun,

 

JoseC.

[Guest]

I have a Epiphone Les Paul Standard with a red flame top that sounds and plays damn good once I disconnected the tone pots.I guess all you long winded rich kids with your competition of who can type the longest reply thinking it makes you sound smarter would just look down your noses and think this is funny well from what I've read here you all sound like a bunch of snobs.

 

[This message has been edited by bshogry@iopener.net (edited 12-17-2000).]

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by jcobelas@navegalia.com:

The music world seems to be full of either old pros, or young rock/techno-star wannabes who don´t seem to understand that some of us just want to make music for fun and pleasure...what are we supposed to do? Play golf? Watch TV and nurture our beerbellies? Roll over and die?

 

 

You took that a bit out of context bro...I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, I just stated a fact. The question was 'why are Gibson prices so high'...that's one of the main reasons [that, and during the 80's to mid-90's when Japan had a bitchin' economy they overpaid for alot of old Gibsons and drove the prices through the roof].

 

Dude, I'm "over 40 do music as a hobby" guy myself. I happen to still work in the industry, but my day gig is for all intents and purposes a 'straight gig'.

 

I meant no disrespect for the 'dentists having fun'...perhaps I was attempting to be a bit too 'Zappa-esque' in my dry description of the scenario, but I was not in any way disrespecting it.

 

I'm going over to my buddy's house this afternoon. We're going to cut guitars with the sound turned off on the football games. We're both over 40, he's in real estate development. The only thing I have over him is I'm not bald. Nobody's getting 'a deal' from this, it's just for fun. He does his once a quarter gig at the local rock establishment...blows some young turks off the stage, we drink, have some fun, then we all go back to the real world the next day.

 

No harm, no foul. Sorry if you thought I was disrespecting the 'hobbiest'...it wasn't my intention unless I was going to be disrespecting myself...which is a possiblilty http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[lrbreez]

I'm a hardcore Gibson user. I think that it is a shame (to put it mildly) that Gibson prices are so high. It really started in '94 when lumber prices shot up and Gibson too advantage of it. Then the collectible BS started. All you have to do is compare Fender price changes and Gibson price changes over the last 19 years to see how Gibson is robbing everyone. I hope they reverse their policy before they go under.

Buddy

[Guest]

Don't you imagine eventually Gibson and Fender will move their factories to Asia probably Vietnam who knows for cheap labor and there will probably just be small custom shops left in the U.S.

[PlaidRadish]

Well, I don't know about Gibson moving their factory to China or anything, but I can tell you this:

I worked for another major name guitar factory who produced Japanese guitars. Fact is, regardless of the cheap finishing materials they use, the Japanese buffing process is far superior. Most of you on this page have been checking out Gibsons in those dimly lit "Guitar Center" stores, or some other mom & pop place where they don't want you to scrutinize the work Gibson is doing. Gibson's finish department can't produce quality finishes at the prices American musicians want them for, anymore. So you get a borderline finish on a Gibson, with an average fret-job, and possibly some of the cheapest plastic ever in Gibson's history. Not even their design levels are keeping the pace. The man who spoke of Epiphone's work as "crap" and "bolt-on" and other such naive remarks, should work for Epiphone for a few months. I've been to that factory and watched those little Korean men put an incredible amount of effort and concentration into those "cheap" guitars (as you called them). Their efforts in comparison to what the U.S. Gibson factory is putting out today far surpass, and I can also tell you that Ted McCarty himself agrees with that statement. If Les Paul wasn't still stuck on himself, and if Chet Atkins wasn't so concerned about his retirement fund, they would probably jump on that bandwagon with Ted, as well.

 

just my opinion,

jeff

 

[This message has been edited by plaidradish@alltel.net (edited 12-18-2000).]

 

[This message has been edited by plaidradish@alltel.net (edited 12-18-2000).]

[dinopop]

Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com:

I'm going over to my buddy's house this afternoon. We're going to cut guitars with the sound turned off on the football games. We're both over 40, he's in real estate development. The only thing I have over him is I'm not bald.

 

So ... now you've got something against bald guys? Man ... I'm fealing disinfranchized here!

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[bluedawgmail.com]

i agree with the previous poster that owns the epi les paul standard. just got back from my local guitar shop. they have a beautiful epi les paul w/birds eye top in cherry sunburst hanging next to 5 gibson les pauls. not only does the epi look 10 times better,its the only one out of the bunch that stays in tune when you play it.the action is better and the sound is just as good. seeing [or shall i say playing] is believing!!!!!! take that gibson snobs!

[Guest]

Anyone playing Heritage? We're lucky to have a Heritage and G&L dealer in our town. While I'm mostly a Fender/G&L guy, I've played the Heritages and they are beautifully made and reasonably priced. Shame they don't have the cool factor... they could give Gibson a kick in the ass.

[Guest]

I'm sorry about the reply I wrote earlier in this post calling people names that was a stupid thing to do. I know by far most of the people that visit this forum are good guitar playing folks. Merry Christmas,Happy Holidays,Happy New Year.

[lrbreez]

If my memory serves me right, I think Heritage is out of Kalamazoo, Michigan. They were Gibson employees that stayed in Kalamazoo instead of moving to Nashville and started their own company. I think they stayed in the old Gibson factory.

 

Gibsons are still my favorite guitars. The wood they use is better than Epiphone. My complaint about Gibson are the rediculous prices and the "Investment" mentality. A Gibson Les Paul '59 reissue should be in the same price range and a PRS McCarty model.

Buddy

[Marzzz]

I just never went in for the "collectabilty" BS. Have you noticed the Gibson ads in magazines like the New Yorker? Geez!I think the newer Gibsons are WAY over-priced for the quality; these days I would consider a Hamer at 1/4 of the price, and more consistenly built!

 

-Marshall

[sterling30beethoven.com]

You can pick up the "Heritage" version of a Les Paul Standard for arounf $650, and the word is they're better then the Gibson version..

 

I picked up a Epiphone Les Paul Studio awhile back and even though the overall fit and finish leave alot to be desired, it plays beautifully and is one of my favorite guitars..

 

Gregg

[sterling30beethoven.com]

http://www.edromanguitars.com/grpherlp4.jpg

 

http://www.edromanguitars.com/list_her.htm

[dave251]

I guess I miss the innovation...where is the modern equivalent of a Les Paul, Strat, Tele, P-bass, 335, L5, D28? There were many benchmarks set by Gibson, Martin, Fender from the early '30's until the late '50's...it's been more than 30 years since the benchmark names have become classics...we as musicians, designers and engineers have a responsibility to ADVANCE THE ART. I'm sorry, but I can't see where finish quality and exotic woods have that much to do with the "classic" instruments...I mean, the base line is tone, responsiveness, and playability...isn't that why we all use these guitars?

 

We are all way past due to set a new standard....don't get me wrong, I have all the respect in the world for the aforementioned craftsmen who produce beautiful instruments...but for the most part(there are sadly too few exceptions), we are all guilty of just rehashing previous designs. Instead of crying about Henry J's use of the Gibson name to acquire personal wealth, we should be after our guitarmakers to try something new, to improve the old designs, to help us express ourselves as musicians with better sounding, more versatile, more responsive instruments.

 

Dave www.electrocoustic.com

[Marzzz]

Originally posted by dave@electrocoustic.com:

I guess I miss the innovation...where is the modern equivalent of a Les Paul, Strat, Tele, P-bass, 335, L5, D28?

We are all way past due to set a new standard...we should be after our guitarmakers to try something new, to improve the old designs, to help us express ourselves as musicians with better sounding, more versatile, more responsive instruments.

 

I have one thing to say in this regard:

 

Klein Electric Guitars

 

-Marshall

[Guest]

Fuzzface, I own a Heritage amongst a collection of Les Paul Standards and Customs. I would agree that compared to a new Standard which I tried recently the Heritage was in terms of both build quality, tone and finish way better than the Les Paul. I too don't give a flying F****K whose name is on the headstock, if it sounds and plays great it is great....

 

Simon