EXAGON Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 Here, in Switzerland the folk can block, create and change any law, decision and act of the administration, it's very simple and it's the core of our democracy. Is the US citizen allowed to do so too? And if yes, (and the majority is agains this war) why do they do nothing? Features Are Not An Opinion. (John Hope, 2003) http://johnhope.blogspot.com/ Addresse: UIPLPPICDSS Ufficio Internazionale Per La Presa Per Il Culo Dei Sbruffoni Statunitensi Att. Tua Sorella Codice Mavapigliatelindomo Pirla Chi Legge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 First Ignorance then Fear. Ignorance allowed our government to rip away every freedom...Fear keeps people from taking it back. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc: [b]First Ignorance then Fear. Ignorance allowed our government to rip away every freedom...Fear keeps people from taking it back.[/b][/quote]I really wish I could disagree with you, find some way to suggest it will turn out OK but I can't see any way if Bush continues on this course. Sadly I can only see gallons of split blood and gallons of black crude and rich businessmen getter even richer and so more powerful every day :cry: "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not Cereal Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 this is all becoming very real, isnt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNC Posted February 7, 2003 Share Posted February 7, 2003 tron- The majority is not against war, the current split is basically 50/50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Johnson Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by tron: Here, in Switzerland the folk can block, create and change any law, decision and act of the administration, it's very simple and it's the core of our democracy. Is the US citizen allowed to do so too? And if yes, (and the majority is agains this war) why do they do nothing?[/quote]On the one hand, our media is largely government-directed with GREAT effort put towards controlling its output, and on the other hand if we get uppity we run the risk of being classified as 'enemy combatants', taken away, and possibly tortured or killed. There are no rights for enemy combatants, and Amnesty International is upset about this. Puts a bit of a damper on people's willingness to be seen publically criticizing the administration which has made efforts to have postmen and meter readers turned into government spies, and monitors everything you publically say to the best of its ability, including this post. Have a little respect for those with less freedoms than you, 'k? Chris Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanYmaL X Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 I don't get it. Saddam invades Kuwait.. the world cries "fowl..." The US, along with several other like-minded nations step in and put Saddam back in his place, and all is well, until countries start crying "fowl... the US is mean." even our 'allies' at the time turn on us. Vicious warlords cause hell on earth in Somalia... US steps in to help the UN, the world cries "fowl, the US is mean..." Psychotic terrorists bent on nothing but pure evil blow up the world trade center... the world cries "fowl, Al Qaida is mean..." but when the US goes in to the middle east hunting the people responsible for that attack, the world cries "fowl the US is mean..." Now, we know that Iraq is partially responsible for Al Qaida's terrorism, and we know that if Saddam is not stopped, he will continue this activity against the US and the Western World in general. No one else is lifting a hand to stop him. The US could just as easily seal off it's borders and harden 'Homeland Security' and choose to take no outside action, other than to protect itself against any direct attacks... we could sit back and watch the terrorists reduce the 'Western World' to chaos. Which is what they want. We tried that already, and we ended up bailing the Western World out on more than one occasion... So before you go crying "Warmonger" and "Bully," think about where [i]you[/i] would be if the US had always adopted the 'stay out of it' policy you are crying for now. Sure we've made mistakes, nobody's perfect... but if something isn't done now, it will be too late. DX "Let the flames begin!" Aerodyne Jazz Deluxe Pod X3 Live Roland Bolt-60 (modified) Genz Benz GBE250-C 2x10 Acoustic 2x12 cab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Rog: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc: [b]First Ignorance then Fear. Ignorance allowed our government to rip away every freedom...Fear keeps people from taking it back.[/b][/quote]I really wish I could disagree with you, find some way to suggest it will turn out OK but I can't see any way if Bush continues on this course. Sadly I can only see gallons of split blood and gallons of black crude and rich businessmen getter even richer and so more powerful every day :cry: [/b][/quote]And sadly, I have to agree with both of you. Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 ........ http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogfur Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by BNC: [b]tron- The majority is not against war, the current split is basically 50/50.[/b][/quote]That would be if you believe the accuracy of major media sponsored polls. I think if any one of us asked 1000 people what they thought it wouldn't be such an even split. Woof! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pumpcat Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by danymal_x: [b] Now, we know that Iraq is partially responsible for Al Qaida's terrorism[/b][/quote]This is one of the biggest, most blatent lies being put forth by the Bush administration. They know that there is no legitimate reason to invade Iraq, so they have been trying to convince the less informed citizenry that Saddam Hussein was somehow involved with 9-11 and al-Queida. This is completely and utterly false. In reality, they hate each other with a vengance, so much so that not even having a common enemy (USA) has allowed them to cooperate. -Matt M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Dogfur: [b] [quote]Originally posted by BNC: [b]tron- The majority is not against war, the current split is basically 50/50.[/b][/quote]That would be if you believe the accuracy of major media sponsored polls. I think if any one of us asked 1000 people what they thought it wouldn't be such an even split.[/b][/quote]A 50/50 split would mean there is no majority, but IMHO it is more like 70/30 against the war. Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanYmaL X Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc: [b] [quote]Originally posted by danymal_x: [b]snip.. Sure we've made mistakes, nobody's perfect... but if something isn't done now, it will be too late. DX "Let the flames begin!"[/b][/quote]I'd like to add to my earlier posts that [b]some[/b] people are just completely stupid. I don't say that to be mean or put you down but c'mon man...wake up. Pick up a book sometime eh? Turn off the TV and cancel your subscription to TIME magazine (or is it Newsweek?). Your mind is filled with Bullshit...shake some of it out and seek out the truth...at least try.[/b][/quote]Just to add to [i]my[/i] earlier post... I don't watch TV, neither do I read TIME [i]or[/i] Newsweek. As a former Marine, I have [i]been[/i] there. I have seen the animosity present towards the US just about everywhere a US citizen goes, whether it be in the 'Western World' or otherwise. Even in Canada. Despite the fact that we open our borders to [i]anyone[/i] who wants to enter, and are willing to help [i]anyone[/i] who asks for our help. So I know the 'truth,' as you put it. And while I don't have to like the fact that our children are going overseas to die for someone else, I also see the 'truth' that this may be very necessary. I would rather have them fight it out over [i]there[/i] now than have the fight brought [i]here[/i] later. 9/11 was not just an attack. It was a statement to us from them that we are not safe here. They are more than willing and more than able to bring this fight to our shores, and if we don't stop it right now, they are going to. If we don't take a stand now, we won't have any legs left to stand on. I'm sure my thinking is not with the majority-those of you who would rather sit back and hope everything would just go away. It won't. But then, I have done things that needed to be done in the past that left a foul taste in my mouth. I know the need for a little pain now to stop the bigger evil later. So to quote a post from the bass forum: 'here's a :thu: up yer asss...' Get your head [i]out[/i] of your book and into the real world. DX Aerodyne Jazz Deluxe Pod X3 Live Roland Bolt-60 (modified) Genz Benz GBE250-C 2x10 Acoustic 2x12 cab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanYmaL X Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by pumpcat: [b] [quote]Originally posted by danymal_x: [b] Now, we know that Iraq is partially responsible for Al Qaida's terrorism[/b][/quote]This is one of the biggest, most blatent lies being put forth by the Bush administration. They know that there is no legitimate reason to invade Iraq, so they have been trying to convince the less informed citizenry that Saddam Hussein was somehow involved with 9-11 and al-Queida. This is completely and utterly false. In reality, they hate each other with a vengance, so much so that not even having a common enemy (USA) has allowed them to cooperate.[/b][/quote]And [i]you[/i] know this because..... Besides, it wouldn't really matter if they were bedfellows or not... they are both threatening the US, and the western world in general. Two polar bears sitting next to each other may not be friends, but they'd still both kill you if they could. So do you ignore one and hope it doesn't eat you while you blow smoke up the other one's ass? (You can't shoot 'em because their endangered...) I wouldn't. But thats just me. You do what you want. 'Night. DX Aerodyne Jazz Deluxe Pod X3 Live Roland Bolt-60 (modified) Genz Benz GBE250-C 2x10 Acoustic 2x12 cab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnb Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Originally posted by DX: [quote] I have seen the animosity present towards the US just about everywhere a US citizen goes, whether it be in the 'Western World' or otherwise. Even in Canada. [/quote]It wouldn't be because when Americans go abroad that they act like dicks, would it??? Of course not all Americans, just the ones who seem to think that everybody needs to kiss their ass because they are Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 DX...I removed my earlier post because I realized I made a lot of unfair assumptions about you...I'd hoped that was obvious. Regardless...I still disagree with your view of the situation. [quote]those of you who would rather sit back and hope everything would just go away. It won't.[/quote] [quote]Get your head [i]out of your book and into the real world.[/quote]Now, you're making assumptions about me....ok...fair enough...I suppose I had that coming. I don't want to sit back and just hope everything will be ok...I want our leaders to do their job...not smokescreen the U.S. public into supporting the motives of a small number of selfish businessmen. Yeah there are bad people all over the world...always have been...yeah the U.S. is pissing more of them off by the day...You seem to be suggesting we continue that policy...IMO [b]that is MADNESS[/b]. Of course I don't have a lot of hope left, the last couple of years most Americans sleepwalked while their leaders created a police state. To tell the truth, because I'm a father, I'm damn close to just shutting my mouth, hiding and hoping for the best...this stuff is way more serious than the average American is taking it. I believe you have had first-hand experience with those who hate the U.S. But I don't believe you have much knowledge of the big picture...I'm a student of history...I feel I really do know WHY so many people around the world hate us. And that is the truth that I suggested you seek. Peace and Love. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanYmaL X Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by tnb: [b]Originally posted by DX: [quote] I have seen the animosity present towards the US just about everywhere a US citizen goes, whether it be in the 'Western World' or otherwise. Even in Canada. [/quote]It wouldn't be because when Americans go abroad that they act like dicks, would it ??? Of course not all Americans, just the ones who seem to think that everybody needs to kiss their ass because they are Americans.[/b][/quote]Is that something you've seen for yourself, or is it just what you've heard? I personally have seen some pretty poor behaviour abroad. But if anyone says that it is just Americans acting that way, they are dead wrong. You don't need to be an American to be rude. In fact, I have come across travellers from many different nationalities that were exponentially worse than any American I've dealt with. Unless you yourself have travelled extensively and have never met a polite American, and never met a rude any- where- else-ian, I would suggest you travel a bit before making those accusations. DX Aerodyne Jazz Deluxe Pod X3 Live Roland Bolt-60 (modified) Genz Benz GBE250-C 2x10 Acoustic 2x12 cab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnb Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc: [quote] To tell the truth, because I'm a father, I'm damn close to just shutting my mouth, hiding and hoping for the best [/quote]Wow, being a father is the only reason I am getting involved. Before my wife got pregnant I was ready to tell this country to kiss my ass. I had a bass, an amp and a passport and I was out of here. Now I am staying for the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanYmaL X Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc: [b]...I feel I really do know WHY so many people around the world hate us. And that is the truth that I suggested you seek. Peace and Love.[/b][/quote]Enlighten me. Aerodyne Jazz Deluxe Pod X3 Live Roland Bolt-60 (modified) Genz Benz GBE250-C 2x10 Acoustic 2x12 cab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick K. Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by tnb: [b]Wow, being a father is the only reason I am getting involved. Before my wife got pregnant I was ready to tell this country to kiss my ass. I had a bass, an amp and a passport and I was out of here. Now I am staying for the fight.[/b][/quote]This is interesting, tnb. Why is this? Why stay for the fight? Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnb Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 DX, why yes I have traveled extensively. Alone and with groups. My passport looks pretty raggedy. What about you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnb Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Rick, it is hard to be a bass bum with an infant and wife. It is very easy to travel around from gig to gig, country to country, but little girls don't raise themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick K. Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Good for you. And you, Steve! I can't wait to have kids myself. Rick ...and now back to our regularly scheduled program.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by tnb: [b]Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc: [quote] To tell the truth, because I'm a father, I'm damn close to just shutting my mouth, hiding and hoping for the best [/quote]Wow, being a father is the only reason I am getting involved. Before my wife got pregnant I was ready to tell this country to kiss my ass. I had a bass, an amp and a passport and I was out of here. Now I am staying for the fight.[/b][/quote]yeah...well right now I'm not going anywhere and I still am in a fighting mood but over the next year or so if I'm fighting alone right ain't gonna win. Thoughts of getting my wife and son out of the country and keeping my mouth shut become more attractive. But I really don't know what to do. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by danymal_x: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc: [b]...I feel I really do know WHY so many people around the world hate us. And that is the truth that I suggested you seek. Peace and Love.[/b][/quote]Enlighten me.[/b][/quote]Well I'm just leaving work right now and you've just given me a very tall order...I don't know where to start. If you're serious...you might read some of the articles posted [url=http://www.stillmusic.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=3&PHPSESSID=b886f69eb1e9ecf7b789c8541c79a594]HERE[/url] The guy who owns that BBS is a friend of mine...I suggest you start with the older articles on page 2 first and work your way up to the present. But if you want I can try to summarize a lot of it tommorrow...I've got a busy night planned and won't be online again until tomorrow afternoon. Dogfur and Chip McDonald have linked to some good documents in discussions here too...check out the last big Iraq argument on this forum...sorry I can't remember the name of the thread. All pretty good sources of information but I made up my mind that modern war is almost never right a long time ago....that decision wasn't based on internet news articles. I had a couple of really great History teachers and spent a lot of time reading books both by Anti-war writers and Pro-War writers. The Pro-War writers...or to be more specific...those who support the Monetary system that world policy is based on...opened my eyes the most. I understand their arguments but I cannot morally agree with them. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogfur Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Here's a new twist to why you might not be able to stop the Bush crime syndicate: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0207-10.htm I'll be sure to check that program out. Woof! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViLo Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by danymal_x: [b]I don't get it. Saddam invades Kuwait.. the world cries "fowl..." The US, along with several other like-minded nations step in and put Saddam back in his place, and all is well, until countries start crying "fowl... the US is mean." even our 'allies' at the time turn on us. Vicious warlords cause hell on earth in Somalia... US steps in to help the UN, the world cries "fowl, the US is mean..." Psychotic terrorists bent on nothing but pure evil blow up the world trade center... the world cries "fowl, Al Qaida is mean..." but when the US goes in to the middle east hunting the people responsible for that attack, the world cries "fowl the US is mean..." Now, we know that Iraq is partially responsible for Al Qaida's terrorism, and we know that if Saddam is not stopped, he will continue this activity against the US and the Western World in general. No one else is lifting a hand to stop him. The US could just as easily seal off it's borders and harden 'Homeland Security' and choose to take no outside action, other than to protect itself against any direct attacks... we could sit back and watch the terrorists reduce the 'Western World' to chaos. Which is what they want. We tried that already, and we ended up bailing the Western World out on more than one occasion... So before you go crying "Warmonger" and "Bully," think about where [i]you[/i] would be if the US had always adopted the 'stay out of it' policy you are crying for now. Sure we've made mistakes, nobody's perfect... but if something isn't done now, it will be too late. DX "Let the flames begin!"[/b][/quote]I agree! Jesus Is Coming, Make Music, Get Ready! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViLo Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 Well, How about a poll on this very forum???? Jesus Is Coming, Make Music, Get Ready! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Tonk Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]The majority is not against war, the current split is basically 50/50. [/quote].....Actually the latest polls show to 60/40 pro-war..................................... [quote]Sadly I can only see gallons of split blood and gallons of black crude and rich businessmen getter even richer and so more powerful every day [/quote]Everyone keeps talking about Bush being greedy and lusting for Iraqi oil.How many TX oil wells do you think Bush owns.Right now West Tx intermediate is around 34$ a barrel.If Iraqi oil flows freely to this country,Tx oil will drop to 10$ a barrel.This takes money out of Bush's wallet.He doesn't want thier oil.This is about right and wrong.As a matter of fact,oil has more to do with the opposition to war.Did you know one of the main reasons France is against war,is because the oil well service companys that service and ship Iraqi oil are all French owned.Hmmmmmm.....................................When Iraq invaded Kuwait,that was a crime.We inforced the law.As part of thier "probation",Iraq was to completely disarm.They have not done so.They have violated "probation".The UN seems unwilling to inforce the "probation".What message does this send to other rogue nations?I guess everyone would be alot better off if we didn't inforce probation laws with common criminals? I think not. [quote] And that is the truth that I suggested you seek. Peace and Love. [/quote]Someone please point out tthese nations that seek peace and love.It certainatly isn't France or Germany(which are hotbeds of terrorist activity),it isn't N.Korea which is lookin for a chance to blackmail some aid from the US,and it isn't Iraq whose dictator is hellbent for death and destruction...........With all that said I wish there was another way other than war.But I realize that the time has come to tell rogue nations we are not going to idley sit by while they break "probation" or try to blackmail us.War has to happen.In times of crisis folks need to pull together and fight the good fight.My .02$ worth,I'm done...........Well one more thing I suggest everyone pray for as little civilian casualities as possible both here and abroad. jgc2002 is not responsible for damages ,injuries and or death as result of above post.Side effects include nasuea,dizziness,dry mouth,vomiting,blurred vision,nervousness,loss of memory and in extreme cases sexual side effects. www.mp3.com/salt_creek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanYmaL X Posted February 8, 2003 Share Posted February 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by tnb: [b]DX, why yes I have traveled extensively. Alone and with groups. My passport looks pretty raggedy. What about you?[/b][/quote]Yes as well, alone, in groups, civillian and military. I wouldn't have challenged you that way if I hadn't. Since you obviously are well-travelled, and by your previous statement, you are either a rude Kiss-my-ass type or the only polite American traveller... Aerodyne Jazz Deluxe Pod X3 Live Roland Bolt-60 (modified) Genz Benz GBE250-C 2x10 Acoustic 2x12 cab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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