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Is there a digital piano with a great Rhodes patch?


konaboy

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Originally posted by konaboy:

As the last poster points out the S90 and it's siblings is more of a synth than a digi-piano and that is overkill if you just want piano. I don't want several hundred mediocre sounds. All I want is two totally authentic sounds! I'm sure there are many other players yearning for the same thing.

 

The new Yamaha digital pianos really disappoint me. The acoustic pianos may be stunning but I find the Rhodes still to be very thin in the high end, synthetic and with artificial and obvious velocity switches. I'm shocked that they still haven't got it right. It sounds only marginally better than their efforts from 10 years ago.

I agree with you, it's pathetic what they foist on us for rhodes when we buy a 'stage piano'. C'mon, Yamaha the bar has been raised, surely you can do better! Although, I have to say, from what I've heard so far, the rhodes on the P120 is the best of a bad lot - the tone is dead-on from a Stage 73. Unfortunately it does suffer from an audible velo-switch, but not too badly. And yes, why haven't they fixed that on the latest breed of "professional" stage pianos, the CP300 and CP33?
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Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

I agree with you, it's pathetic what they foist on us for rhodes when we buy a 'stage piano'. C'mon, Yamaha the bar has been raised, surely you can do better!

I agree that substandard work is not acceptable, but OTOH... the development of a good multisample with multiple velocity layers and the programming that goes along with it isn't so simple. That's why there is tons of cr*p around including useless sample libraries of the week.

 

Though, not being a huge Rhodes fan, I have no idea what tone is required...

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Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

Although, I have to say, from what I've heard so far, the rhodes on the P120 is the best of a bad lot - the tone is dead-on from a Stage 73. Unfortunately it does suffer from an audible velo-switch, but not too badly. And yes, why haven't they fixed that on the latest breed of "professional" stage pianos, the CP300 and CP33?

I think the MOTIF rhodes seems to have the best tone.. but damn that velocity switch... just watched Sergio Mendes at Montreux and he was playing an ES8... great tone but noticeable switching.

 

Had the P120 for a while and the rhodes was pretty cool. I never got the feel of the heavy tones when you "dig in" like I do with my rhodes Stage MkII. When you go back to the real thing it really sticks out a mile...

 

The GEM has a cool epiano.. great (almost identical in fact and I've AB'd them against my old Mk1) low end and mid range... though too tinkly and artificial in the top end and nothing like a rhodes.

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You can't take expressive Rhodes samples and map them to three or four velocity splits without them being jumpy as hell. Scarbee is the only sampled Rhodes out there that's both a) expressive and b) completely playable. He uses a dozen+ velocity split points.

 

Yamaha generally uses three split points; jumpy. The Roland SRX-12 uses four; jumpy. Tone-wise the SRX-12 is beautiful. If only they had eight more velocity layers available.

 

Digidesign's Velvet is fantastic...modelled.

 

If Konaboy just needs Rhodes and piano maybe he should just find a Rhodes 54 or Mark V and quit screwing around with it.

 

Busch.

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Originally posted by burningbusch:

You can't take expressive Rhodes samples and map them to three or four velocity splits without them being jumpy as hell. Scarbee is the only sampled Rhodes out there that's both a) expressive and b) completely playable. He uses a dozen+ velocity split points.

 

Yamaha generally uses three split points; jumpy. The Roland SRX-12 uses four; jumpy. Tone-wise the SRX-12 is beautiful. If only they had eight more velocity layers available.

Yes, I think that's right. Let's see, M1, 1988, I think, wasn't it? Two-way velocity-switched Rhodes patches with egregiously obvious velocity-switches. When did Roland introduce four-way velocity-switches, around 1991? Can't remember exactly, but it was early 90's, I think. It's now 2006, almost 2007, and we're still being sold 3- and 4-way velocity-switches? I'm disappointed! If they're going to use velocity-switching, they should increase the number of layers to at least 8 or 16. Sure, I understand that it's a lot of work, but it's not like they haven't had time to work on it.....
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Originally posted by burningbusch:

My preference is the Roland RD700SX with SRX-12 card. Excellent Rhodes. Cons: expensive and heavy.

 

Busch.

+1

 

The Rhodes sound is what I play 90% of the time. I tried all of the digital pianos I listed below and none of them satisfied me like the RD-700SX with a SRX-12 does.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Originally posted by kanker, apparently:

4 way was the XV series.

Nope. 4-layer velocity-switched voices appeared in the JV80, 1991.

 

(Or possibly the D70, 1990. I say 'possibly' because I can't really make sense of the D70 manual. Each patch seems to have an upper and lower part, and each of them has two parts - confusing.)

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Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

Originally posted by kanker, apparently:

4 way was the XV series.

Nope. 4-layer velocity-switched voices appeared in the JV80, 1991.

 

(Or possibly the D70, 1990. I say 'possibly' because I can't really make sense of the D70 manual. Each patch seems to have an upper and lower part, and each of them has two parts - confusing.)

Here's where I'm getting my info - http://www.harmony-central.com/Events/WNAMM00/Roland/XV-3080-5080.html

 

Perhaps they did mono earlier.

A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
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kanker, I would call the change from mono to stereo an incremental improvement (and in some ways, it has turned out to be a detrement rather than an improvement). Doesn't change my basic point, which is that the technology (i.e., 4-layer velocity-switched voices) has been around since about 1990, maybe even earlier, I just can't think of an earlier example than the d70.
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Originally posted by cnegrad:

Here at KC, evidentially we'll argue about anything at the slightest mention of the words "favorite" or "most popular".

LOL

 

:thu:

 

Guilty as charged.

aka âmisterdregsâ

 

Nord Electro 5D 73

Yamaha P105

Kurzweil PC3LE7

Motion Sound KP200S

Schimmel 6-10LE

QSC CP-12

Westone AM Pro 30 IEMs

Rolls PM55P

 

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If you haven't heard, the Rhodes trademark was bought by an idiot who claimed he was going to manufacture them again but who spends most of his time roaming the web and suing anybody who uses the name "Rhodes" to describe an instrument or VST they are marketing.

Moe

---

 

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Originally posted by mate_stubb:

If you haven't heard, the Rhodes trademark was bought by an idiot who claimed he was going to manufacture them again but who spends most of his time roaming the web and suing anybody who uses the name "Rhodes" to describe an instrument or VST they are marketing.

Hmmm... no, I hadn't heard that. What a shame. In Wikipedia it says "In the early 2000s, the "Rhodes" name was bought back from Roland by one of Harold Rhodes's erstwhile colleagues, and new electromechanical Rhodes pianos may yet be produced."
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Originally posted by misterdregs:

John-

 

It gets suggested here a lot by a zealous and loyal following, but it sounds like you could get by very well with the Nord Electro 73.

http://www.clavia.se/products/nordelectro/index.htm

 

I have not heard the improved acoustic pianos on the NE3.0 - they are definitely the weakest sounds on the 1.0 and 2.0. And the pushbutton LED "drawbars" might be a deal-breaker for someone who grew up playing a real Hammond.

 

The semi-weighted action is not ideal for either piano or organ purists, but I find it very playable. It only weighs 9.4 kg/ 21 lbs. As long as you don't need to split or layer sounds, it should work for you. Did I mention it only weighs 9.4 kg/ 21 lbs? :D

Until I stumbled on this forum I had never heard of the Nord line (Electro, Stage or whatever). I'm pretty set on the XK1 for the wonderful Hammond sounds. The Nord electro looks interesting if just for the electric grand piano sounds. Strange that it doesn't allow you to layer the piano and B3 sounds... Plus it would need an immediate paint job... ;)

 

BTW, unfortunately I grew up with a Farfisa :o with a Yamaha all-in-one amp with two rotating speakers built into the top, but I usually rented an M3 and a CP70B for gigs (which cost more than the gig paid, but that's another story).

 

Anyway, its all interesting and new to me as I come back into playing regularly. Thanks for all your help!

 

John

GP sacred cow of the year: Jimmy Vaughan
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Originally posted by mate_stubb:

If you haven't heard, the Rhodes trademark was bought by an idiot who claimed he was going to manufacture them again but who spends most of his time roaming the web and suing anybody who uses the name "Rhodes" to describe an instrument or VST they are marketing.

Yup, he's funding his production start-up from the settlements of his trademark infringement suits :mad:
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Hi!

 

My Opinion is:

 

I own a Nord Electro 73, so i'm using rhodes sound very close to original. (NE contains samples) Now it's very hard to play rhodes on other keyboard, all is too "DX" for me :) I'm compared Rolands/Yamaha's/Kawai's and find closest rhodes sound in Kawai MP4/MP8. These keyboards has very good piano sounds too, because these is stage pianos :) I don't know what of technique use Kawai's (harmonic imaging?) but is very hard to find sample end and beginning of next sample, while playing 1 key in different velocities. (ppp to fff and so on) i like that!

 

On Roland/s is difficult to let rhodes "barking" (a "live drive" - typical hard striked rhodes sound)

 

On Yamaha's - quiet played rhodes is too "DX" for me..

 

 

So The best solution?

 

Take your famous stage piano choosed by Your touch (action) and connect to laptop o Muse Receptor and play samples or VSTi's! :)

 

Piano samples - i don't use, my MP8 is enough good to mee.

 

Rhodes - generated - "Lounge Lizard 3"

Sampled - "Scarbee"

 

IMO :)

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I LOVE the Rhodes sound on my SRX12 sound card, and the sound and feel of Rolands in general. I gotta point you towards a Roland RD700SX with the "Classic EP's" sound card. Whichever way you go, ENJOY YOUR GAS!!!
Never try to play anything live.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Okay, I have a question for you all: What is velocity switching? I am a fairly technical guy, (though I'm no engineer), and I have been playing keyboards for a long time, but I am not familiar with the term. Thanks.

 

I'll comment that I like the "HrdVintage" Rhoades patch on the S90ES a lot, but I have found even better ones from a third party called "Vintage Keys", which you can find on sninety.com.

Samick baby grand; Yamaha S90-ES; Ensoniq E-prime; bongos; tambourine; djimbe

http://www.mindseyeviewband.com/MindsEyeView/MEV.htm

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Velocity switching -

 

This is a technique used on sampled instruments to make them respond to touch a bit more realistically.

 

A sample is just a recording of a single event, and can't capture the variety of tone of a note played at different velocities. So modern sampled instruments are recorded at anywhere from 2 up to 10 velocities. These separate recordings are switched in and played depending on how hard you strike the note.

 

Hence, "velocity switching".

 

If it is done well, you will not hear the transition between one recording and the next as you play harder. If there are not enough layers to capture the variety of sound, you will hear the timbre change abruptly as you strike a single note a little harder.

Moe

---

 

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Maybe if hardware manufacturers increase the number velocity samples to more than the standard 3 or 4, things will improve, but in the mean time, I don't think what we are using now is all that terrible. Not compared to trying to use a real Rhodes and move it around all the time. No thanks.

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

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There is also velocity crossfading where instead of changing instantly from a sample to another, two samples will crossfade over a fixed velocity value defined as their common center point. The first one (lower velocity sound) will go gradually quieter as its velocity increases over the predefined value and the second one (higher velocity sound) will be gradually louder as its velocity increases over the predefined value, giving less drastic sound changes than usual velocity switching.
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Something else comes into play, cost. We all want great sound but we also want low prices. For the most part, the big three have done a decent job of keeping selling prices down, the Korg Oasys not withstanding. Maybe we just can't have it both ways, at least not right now.

 

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

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I feel that Acc piano and Rhodes are the most important, but yet, with all of the technology available, why is this a never ending search to find an absolut real sampled piano from a major mfr? Its not impossible for a Roland or a Yamahoo to put enough mem, disk space, or whatever it takes, to make me an 75lb Stnway with a killer suitcase Rhose patch, or am I asking too much? So many boards since the DX7 are simply rehashes of so many other boards.

 

So, do I have to wait for Muse build a Fatar/Receptor all in one? They build the Receptor, right? Whats to stop them from getting a Fatar, putting in a super Receptor, mabey dual processors, mem to 8 GB, 2 500GB Sata drives and letting me load Ivory, Scarbee, and anything else that I own, sorta like a Mac with a keybed.

 

Id be more than happy to buy a module for all of the other sounds I need, so will 1 of these companies please get off their mindless rehashing of the same old things with a few new knobbies and a few new newage patches, and build me a stage piano that sounds like a Stnway AND a Rhodes. No wonder Ive purchased so few boards since I dumped the clav, MiniMoog, MemoryMoog, Suitcase AND the (forgive me) Arp String ens. Did I mention the Arp Oddysey?...with the Little Brother module...member those?

 

Technology has a come a long way, just look around you, yet the major keyboard mfr's are still stuck in the 80's. It amazes me that they still have trouble making the newest boards sound like the older ones. Well gee marv, this new keyboard sounds sorta like a Moog...has a good patch in it that sorta sounds like a B3, n its only 1899.00, lets get 2. Cause this here other patch sorta sounds like a Rhodes.

 

Yesterday I ran into an 88 stage model Rhodes, I was amazed...it sounded just like.....u guessed it..a Rhodes.

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Adino:

 

I don't know if I can agree with you. remember, manf. are trying to duplicate sounds from analog equipment with digital technology, sampled, or modeled, and a lower cost. Today's digital instruments are much more stable than the old gear and its a lot cheaper.

 

It could be that we're all searching for an all in one KB that does everything and sounds much better than anything else anyone has. By the time we find it, someone else comes out with something that's "better", or better and cheaper.

 

Mike T.

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

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