Question about the Real book

[orangefunk]

Beautiful post man... and fascinating thread.

 

I don't play those old standards because I too don't connect with them... I think tunes like Manhattan, for example, can be very beautiful in their chordal structure and in particular Blossom Dearie has a great voice but lyrically its pure syrup. If I played that to a girlfriend she'd probably leave me

 

I think in Europe we don't have this distinction of jazz being the american songbook... pretty much anything is up for grabs.. for example I've played Stevie Wonders "Superwoman" as a jazz ballad (great changes btw) and I've even been forced to play Wham!'s Last Xmas in a jazz style at a xmas party (that really got the crowd going.. they absolutely loved it).

 

When I hear someone like Brad Mehldau play Radiohead or Nick Drake covers it affects me more than any american songbook number ever could... but I'm unable to give a rational reason for it... except to say I'm a relatively young guy and those are tunes are part of my growing experience and not Gershwin.

 

I uploaded a clip of Jan Garbarek to youtube awhile back

 

 

In my experience this is what a lot of audiences like... very accessible melodies beautifully played with very nice improvisation. Is it jazz? Who cares... its just incredibly beautiful and touches my soul.... Rainer Bruninghaus does a great piano solo too..

 

Btw. My guitarist plays a lot of American SOngbook tunes on his duo gig with a singer... he makes a ton of dough and does a lot of gigs... his heart is really in prog rock strangely enough... which probably is about as unpopular a genre to play as there is here in my location ;-)

 

Originally posted by David R:

 

To me, as a young musician who is decidedly not of the Great American Songbook generation, I find it hard to connect with a lot of the songs. Sometimes it's due to oversaturation (I'll be happy if I can never play "Summertime" or "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" again in my life), sometimes it's because the melody doesn't resonate with me, and sometimes it's because the lyrics mean very little. In part, it's due to the fact that many standards are culled from shows, and in many cases such songs are heavily reliant on context - how many songs from musicals do you hear in isolation? And like them or not, growing up in a post-Dylan, post-Beatles, post-Tom Waits world, the expectation of what can be said in lyrics has been

expanded since the days of the Brill Building and Motown.

 

Am I less of a musician or jazz pianist because I prefer to play "Windows" instead of "Swanee River"? No. I have no connection to the latter, whereas I truly enjoy the former. That is the paramount difference.

 

David

[Dave Horne]

Again, there's no "bad" music.

Sure there is. You have be to a bit discriminating.

 

I can respect music that I don't like if it is well constructed. On the other hand, there's plenty of really bad music - poor harmonic structure, poor melodic structure ... just poor. (Light My Fire ... anyone?) I suppose if it puts a smile on just one person's face ....

 

Worked a corporate job tonight - excellent food ... not one request for Giant Steps. I did think about playing it just to see of anyone was paying attention ... but I didn't.

[David R]

Hit the wrong button, disregard.

[Dave Horne]

To me, as a young musician who is decidedly not of the Great American Songbook generation, I find it hard to connect with a lot of the songs.

Well, I'm 56 and those tunes were written before I was born.

 

When I was 16 I played jobs with musicians in their 40's and 50's - I had to learn to those tunes if I wanted to work. Looking back, I typically made $50 or so a weekend when I was 16 - back in 1966. That was a lot of funny back then ... and an incentive to learn tunes.

 

I have the greatest respect for Dick Hyman. He can take tunes from 1920 - 1940, tunes I wouldn't dream of playing, and what he does with them makes me think twice about them. There are good tunes and bad tunes, the trick is to play the good tunes, tunes that most people might recognize. (Even Gershwin wrote tunes that were less than great.)

 

You can practice in your bedroom for that jam session once a month ... or get out, play, and god forbid, make some money. You can make money and still have high musical standards.

[David R]

Well, I think the crowds you and I have played for in our times, Dave, differ distinctly. Even the great tunes garner little or no reaction, and if they do it's probably only because Rod Stewart or Michael Buble have covered them. I've started playing "I Left My Heart in San Francisco" on cocktail jobs because everybody knows it, especially with Tony's resurgence. It's a second-rate tune of the era, I feel, but it's the one that got popular.

 

I've played "Giant Steps," the Metheny bossa version, as interludes on singers' gigs, and it goes over marvellously. "Windows" has worked in that setting too. Covers of Beatles, Stevie Wonder and Paul Simon are the audience highlights of any gig I've ever played - not the old chestnuts.

 

I'm not doing a piano bar gig, so no one's slumped over the piano expecting to croon along with "Our Love Is Here to Stay." And if I was to do a piano bar gig (this is coming from my cruise ship colleague), I'd have to have as much Joel, John and Webber in my repertoire as Porter, Berlin and Gershwin.

 

You can make money, still have high musical standards, and not hold one's nose at playing tunes that don't stem from Tin Pan Alley.

 

David

[Dave Horne]

You can make money, still have high musical standards, and not hold one's nose at playing tunes that don't stem from Tin Pan Alley.

You're missing my point ... and putting words in my mouth. I think something's amiss when a player knows Windows or Giant Steps or Joy spring but never heard of Hoagy Carmichael (let alone be able to play a medley of his tunes).

 

(Incidentally, I haven't played I left My Heart in San Franciso in a very long time. I played it so many times in the 1970's, I never want to hear it again. Also, the correct title for that Gershwin tune is Love Is Here To Stay - that's always a good bar bet.)

[cnegrad]

David,

I've played "Giant Steps," the Metheny bossa version,

Which Metheny album are you referring to?

[David R]

Trio 99>00, Cnegrad.

 

Okay, Dave, I understand why something would be amiss if a musician had never heard of Hoagy Carmichael, but forgive me if I have no real use for "Rockin' Chair" in my setlists. His gems are great ("Nearness of You," "Everything Happens to Me," the unavoidable "Georgia on my Mind") but he's also responsible for a lot of outdated novelty tunes.

 

David

[delirium]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Again, there's no "bad" music.

Sure there is. You have be to a bit discriminating.

of course there is "bad" music, just turn the radio or TV on...

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

I think something's amiss when a player knows Windows or Giant Steps or Joy spring but never heard of Hoagy Carmichael (let alone be able to play a medley of his tunes).

Y'see I don't make that distinction....

 

I know plenty of musicians from all over the world, particularly India and the middle east, who play improvisational music and they wouldn't even have heard of Herbie Hancock let alone Gershwin...

 

I'm more interested in music from other cultures than following the tradition... but then again I'm not a jazz musician... I just like to play for fun.. its not my job and I wouldn't want it to be.

 

Btw, I'd be interested to hear what left field music some of you jazz pianists have been listening to recently...

[Jazzwee]

Dave, God forbid, you're into your own original music (like geekgurl and her Latin Jazz group). Since geekgurl does not do covers, and is not interested in learning them, do you criticize that as well? I'm similar. I'm doing what I'm doing mostly in the interest of playing straight ahead trio jazz. There are different audiences. And yes, I don't know Hoagy Carmichael. Never encountered a tune I wanted to play that was from that era.

 

But aside from the musicians that influence me from the Bebop period of jazz and forward, I am also influenced by the popular musicians like the Stevie Wonder, James Taylor, Elton John, Bill Joel, Sting, etc. These are more familiar to the people that I encounter. Thus, to follow your theory of what to play to fit the audience, it would make more sense for me to mix rock piano in rather than Cole Porter.

 

I think what is of greater interest here is the judgement that it is the choice of music that is more important than how well the music (that you like) is played. A slow version of Windows should have the capacity to move people musically as well as your show tunes.

 

I grant that your advice is practical. But it's a little overboard for my taste. If dollars is the goal, then rock and pop is the thing to do. And if that pays the bills then it may allow one to foray into straight ahead jazz, which although it may not pay the bills is more of a pleasure and not work to play.

 

BTW - I am more likely to play Elton John than Hoagy Carmichael. And I can say that I won't be surprised about which would be more popular (even at weddings). It won't be Hoagy.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I would play it either E-G-A-D or A-D-E-G. Kinda keeping the two note clustered intervals in the middle and spreading the rest out. If the bass is playing the root, it give a nice full jazz sound. Try it out. We'll get a little jazz in you yet

Well, I just tried it out on a synth patch. Whatd'ya know, it actually sounds pretty good. Any other "jazz" voicings I could use?

[Jazzwee]

The other common one is on a dominant 7 you play it with: b7, 9, 3, 13 or 3, 13, b7, 9.

Play root on the left hand (or walk a bass line) and use this on the right hand and you've a cool blues voicing you can use on a I IV V.

 

These kind of clustered voicings don't sound too good on an organ patch. Use a clean sound to properly voice the somewhat dissonant whole step intervals.

 

On minor 7 chords, the only common alteration that's safe is playing a 9th instead of a root, although you can also do a substitution and use fourth chords instead of a minor 7 (tonality is vaguer however).

[soundscape]

Originally posted by keyman_sam:

Again, there's no "bad" music.

 

http://www.tradmusic.com/artistimages/A/daveyarthura.jpg

 

 

Originally posted by keyman_sam:

I bet most people who LOVE to hate hiphop/rap, and take PRIDE in doing so are old, live in some remote european place, retired from work, wearing glasses, watching tube television, drink a cup of tea with biscuits in the evening and want to confirm to the norms of the "socially-intelligent" group. yes, i went there. :-P

LOL... I don't think Dave H. lives in "some remote European place" though... more like bang in the centre of central Europe, loads of places you could get to within an hour or so from there.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

And this is why I disagree with Dave H.'s approach so much.

What "approach" is that?

 

"Real men" don't use arpeggiators.

"Real men" don't use sequencing.

"Real jazzers" don't bother with considerations of art.

..."Real musicians" play the exact same repetitore in the exact same style as Dave?

[Dave Horne]

Dave, God forbid, you're into your own original music (like geekgurl and her Latin Jazz group). Since geekgurl does not do covers, and is not interested in learning them, do you criticize that as well?

Again, the entire point of practicing thousands of hours is to be heard. If you can be heard and make some money (god forbid), great. If geekgurl can make herself heard and make some money as well, great, I'm all for it.

 

I'm really addressing those guys who just play from the real book (as though it's a bible) and wonder why they play for free at the jam session once a month and no other jobs come in.

 

You can still improvise and use well known tunes and still be true to your .... art.

 

Why don't we have a thread on those really shitty or rather ... those questionable tunes (I wouldn't want to offend anyone ... yea, right) in the Real Book. I'll sit it out while you guys analyze Hotel Overture \ Hotel Vamp.

[Dave Horne]

Living in Western Europe is really not so remote. We have hot and cold running water and even those large white boxes to keep our food cold. We even have art over here ... and real restaurants where you can sit down. We've had talkies here for a real long time.

 

In all seriousness, every little village has a musical group of some kind that is funded in part from taxes. (We even have a higher standard of living if you use longevity and infant mortality as a yard stick.)

 

I'm 50 minutes away from Amsterdam (though I have 's Hertogenbosch just around the corner which is smaller and nicer), Paris is four hours away or so (by car) and London, well, by plane, it's probably less than an hour away. I can bike to Belgium if I wish and do so in a few hours ... I'm an old guy so I bike slower.)

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by soundscape:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

And this is why I disagree with Dave H.'s approach so much.

What "approach" is that?

 

"Real men" don't use arpeggiators.

"Real men" don't use sequencing.

"Real jazzers" don't bother with considerations of art.

..."Real musicians" play the exact same repetitore in the exact same style as Dave?

Real men use CTRL + C to Copy and CTRL + V to Paste. I prefer to be quoted directly.

 

(I find it interesting that arpeggiators and art appear in the same post.)

 

You don't have to play the same tunes I play, but there's more to music than the Real Book - that was the point. (I'll type slower if necessary. )

 

Dick Hyman had two lists (a total of 200 tunes) in Keyboard magazine many years ago that he felt every jazz musician should know. Somehow I don't think he would waste much time arguing here about those lists - he's too busy working.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

In all seriousness, every little village has a musical group of some kind that is funded in part from taxes. (We even have a higher standard of living if you use longevity and infant mortality as a yard stick.)

It seems in all countries there is funding (whether Gov't or corporate sponsors) of so-called "art" (often of the "art" and not the "hamburger" variety, referencing the earlier images I posted in this thread) that few people pay to see...

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

I'm 50 minutes away from Amsterdam (though I have 's Hertogenbosch just around the corner which is smaller and nicer), Paris is four hours away or so (by car) and London, well, by plane, it's probably less than an hour away. I can bike to Belgium if I wish and do so in a few hours ... I'm an old guy so I bike slower.)

Just to the East of you (can't be much more than an hour by car?) is Essen-Dortmund... or whatever name it has this week. (One of the most anonymous "mega-cities" on the planet.)

 

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8917/essenxx1.png

[ProfD]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Again, the entire point of practicing thousands of hours is to be heard. If you can be heard and make some money (god forbid), great.

 

I'm really addressing those guys who just play from the real book (as though it's a bible) and wonder why they play for free at the jam session once a month and no other jobs come in.

 

You can still improvise and use well known tunes and still be true to your .... art.

I understand where you are coming from and agree 100%.

 

As I have stated in older posts, musicians in general should learn how to balance their art and commerce.

 

For jazz musicians, that can be done covering any tune, standard, original or a mixture of both.

 

Beyond talent, which can be an oxymoron in the music industry, it really comes down to luck, business and interpersonal communication skills.

 

If you don't have it, find someone who does. There are folks who can sell water to a fish. Ironically, they call them...sharks.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Dick Hyman had two lists (a total of 200 tunes) in Keyboard magazine many years ago that he felt every jazz musician should know. Somehow I don't think he would waste much time arguing here about those lists - he's too busy working.

I have both of Hyman's fake books: "Professional Chord Changes and Substitutions for 100 Tunes every Musician Should Know" and "All the Right Changes - The Best Chord Changes and Substitutions for 100 More Tunes." I assume this is the 200 list.

 

Neither "Cheek to Cheek" nor "Lazy River" made the list.

 

Busch.

[delirium]

here is these 100 list:

 

Ain't She Sweet

Alone Together

Am I Blue?

Angel Eyes

Anything Goes

April in Paris

April Showers

As Time Goes By

Autumn in New York

Avalon

Begin the Beguine

The Birth of the Blues

Blues in the Night

Body and Soul

But Not For Me

Can't We Be Friends ?

Can't We Talk It Over

Caravan

Charleston

Crazy Rhythm

Dancing in the Dark

Day by Day

Days of Wine and Roses

Do It Again

Dream

Embraceable You

Fascinating Rhythm

Fine and Dandy

Fools Rush In

Get Happy

Hallelujah!

How Long Has This Been Going On?

I Can't Give You Anything But Love

I Cover the Waterfront

I Get a Kick Out of You

I Got Rhythm

I Know That You Know

I May Be Wrong

I Only Have Eyes For You

I Thought About You

If I Could Be With You (One Hour Tonight)

I Want to be Happy

I'll See You Again

I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles

Indian Summer

It's Only a Paper Moon

I've Got a Crush on YOu

I've Got the World on a String

The Japanese Sandman

Jeepers Creepers

Just One of Those Things

Limehouse Blues

Liza

Love for Sale

Lover, Come Back to Me!

Lullaby of Birdland

Lulu's Back in Town

Mack the Knife

The Man I Love

Misty

Night and Day

Oh, Lady Be Good!

Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone

Poor Butterfly

'Round Midnight

'S Wonderful

Satin Doll

Secret Love

September in the Rain

Skylark

Softly, As In A Morning Sunrise

Somebody Loves Me

Someone To Watch Over Me

Something To Remember You By

Sometimes I'm Happy

Soon

Strike Up The Band!

The Summer Knows (theme from Summer of '42)

Sweet Georgia Brown

Tea For Two

This Love of Mine

Thou Swell

Three Little Words

Time After Time

A Time For Love

Too Marvelous For Words

The Very Thought of You

What Is This Thing Called Love?

What's New/

When Your Lover Has Gone

With A Song In My Heart

You And The Night And The Music

You Are Too Beautiful

You Do Something To Me

You Go To My Head

You Make Me Feel So Young

You Took Advantage Of Me

You're Getting To Be A Habit With Me

You're The Top

Yours Is My Heart Alone

 

 

OK I admit, don't know many of them...

[orangefunk]

No Autumn Leaves? Oh well...

 

Would anyone really play "Forever blowing Bubbles.."?

 

Jeez...

 

I guess my nan would like that... but she also likes "How much is that doggy in the window","all I want for xmas is my two front teeth" and "A Windmill in Old Amsterdam" ("clip clippety clop on the stairs")...

 

I'm glad the last three didn't make it into Dick Hymans book...

 

http://www.poppyfields.net/poppy/songs/windmill.html

[soundscape]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Professional Chord Changes and Substitutions for 100 Tunes every Musician Should Know

Originally posted by delirium:

here is these 100 list

[soundscape]

Originally posted by orangefunk:

When I hear someone like Brad Mehldau play Radiohead or Nick Drake covers it affects me more than any american songbook number ever could... but I'm unable to give a rational reason for it... except to say I'm a relatively young guy and those are tunes are part of my growing experience and not Gershwin.

I guess Radiohead's material aren't "pop songs"... which were still around at the time of "OK Computer."

[BluMunk]

Originally posted by soundscape:

What is "art"?

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more?

 

What I really want to know is what exactly "hard core jazz" is. Is it like jazz with double-penetration?

[delirium]

Originally posted by BluMunk:

Originally posted by soundscape:

What is "art"?

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more?

 

What I really want to know is what exactly "hard core jazz" is. Is it like jazz with double-penetration?

Pervert

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by delirium:

Originally posted by BluMunk:

Originally posted by soundscape:

What is "art"?

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more?

 

What I really want to know is what exactly "hard core jazz" is. Is it like jazz with double-penetration?

Pervert

I think its when theres a lot of blowing..

 

[linwood]

In hardcore jazz, they use a lot of 6/9 chords where the root of the bass is in the mouth of the soprano.

[Dave Horne]

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