Jazz+ Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Years ago I was hanging out with Mark Levine at a Barry Harris workshop. Barry gave his typical lecture on the block chords within both the major and minor 6th Diminished scale (bebop scales). He also covered the dimished scale. Barry asked if there were any questions so Mark decides to have a little fun and goes up to the piano and plays the chord below and asks Barry what it is. Barry throws his hands up and laughs and says "Don't mess with me man!" So folks where do you think this chord is derived from and what is its function? How would you like it notated? The slash chord symbol would be: ___________ ? Spelled from the top down: B Ab F D __ C A Gb Eb Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 16, 2006 Author Share Posted November 16, 2006 Here is chord that Herbie Hancock likes a lot. What is it? From the top down: G E B Ab Hint: Herbie uses it as a four note rootless voicing for the left hand. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Spelled from the top down: B Ab F D __ A Gb Eb C I call that a combination-diminished chord. Being a diminished chord, it could work over a number of different roots. I would prefer to voice it like this (same chord in left hand, just a different voicing) (from the top down) : B Ab F D __ C A Gb Eb It's hard to find a use for that chord, because it's so dense, but I used one in an arrangement a couple of years ago. I think it could be used for a few different functions, but in my case, I called it Ddim/Ebdim, and I used it as a D chord (in the key of D), so it functioned as a 1. It could be notated as D7(b9,#9,#11,13), but that's awkward. Ddim/Ebdim gets the point accross better. Even better is to write it out using notation (which I also did on my chart, which was a big band arrangement). What are your thoughts on the subject, j+? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by Jazz+: Here is chord that Herbie Hancock likes a lot. What is it? From the top down: G E B Ab Hint: Herbie uses it as a four note rootless voicing for the left hand. It's function can't be derived without knowing it's context in the song. Please post an audio clip. It could be a number of things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by Jazz+: Here is chord that Herbie Hancock likes a lot. What is it? From the top down: G E B Ab Hint: Herbie uses it as a four note rootless voicing for the left hand. Gut reaction, Bb7. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by Floyd Tatum: I call that a combination-diminished chord. Being a diminished chord, it could work over a number of different roots.Yeah, I'd call it a double diminished. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 That big chord has FOUR tritones. Crikes. Most of them only a step away. I'm not at a keyboard but that's some heavy chord... Can't even imagine what tonality that would imply. That would give you eight possible root choices, if this is a rooted chord. But if it's rootless... Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Here is chord that Herbie Hancock likes a lot. As did Mike Brecker in his earlier "Steps" days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridog6996 Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 I'd call it a diminished chord as well. The available tensions on a diminished chord (as if it wasn't "tense" enough) are any note that is a whole step up from a chord tone. If you do this for all four chord tones, then you get 2 stacked diminished chords. What you end up doing there is playing all 8 notes of the diminished scale at once. So, in this case, you have a very dense C diminished chord. My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojje Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Because it contains all notes in a half/hole diminished chord it could be a D b9 #9 #11, F b9 #9 #11, Ab b9 #9 #11 or B b9 #9 #11 chord. Thank god for symmetric scales! Its makes it almost aseasy as playing guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanaut Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 It's all 8 notes from an Eb diminished scale. I'm using Eb simply because it's on the bottom, that's all. Any one of the 8 notes in the scale could be the root. The actual voicing without a context is simply a particular voicing for a double diminished chord. The other chord, without a context is an....... Ab diminished (major 7) with a #5 All 4 notes are from an Ab diminished scale. If one were to lower the E and G a whole step then one would end up with an Ab diminished 7th chord. Ab B D F. The availible tensions of the diminished scale are each a whole step above the chord tones, as Bridog6996 pointed out. In this case they would be Bb Db E and G. Play all the tensions together and they create another fully diminished 7th chord. Play both chords together and one would hear the sound of a double diminished chord. Just like the first chord in this thread. Except from a different diminished scale (Only one left, of course.) But it's all about context in the end. So I have no idea what these chords are .... (....dumb musician I am....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Loving Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Stacked diminished chords and Em/Ab "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 B13 b9 #9 #11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phred Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 That Herbie Chord looks like the Jimi Hendrix chord. E#9. (except it should be G# and not Ab)Is it not that simple? If not, can someone tell me why? I'm just saying', everyone that confuses correlation with causation eventually ends up dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 On the Herbie chord. Bb7(b9) #IV minor upper structure. Example, used in parallel harmonizing the melody, measures 24 - 27 Dolphin Dance. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phred Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Sorry E #9 _not_ E# 9 I'm just saying', everyone that confuses correlation with causation eventually ends up dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Is it not that simple? If not, can someone tell me why? Sorry but it's not that simple. First, Jazz+ said that the chord was "rootless". Therefore in the context of the tune, the chord isn't really rootless, but the root is implied by whatever chords surround it. Without knowing that information, everyone is just making arbitrary guesses. Second, if you take the four notes that he specified, and change the bass note, you get a completely different chord spelling. Kanker suggested that it was a Bb7. Well what if the bass note was a [C]? Then it's no longer a Bb chord, is it? I'm sorry, but without the context or a definitive bass note, you're all just making uninformed guesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd8 Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by cnegrad: . Without knowing that information, everyone is just making arbitrary guesses. I thought that was the point of this forum. That is what I've been doing all this time at least (Of course you're right Cnegrad... if it is a rootless voicing, then it could be any number of things) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by cnegrad: I'm sorry, but without the context or a definitive bass note, you're all just making uninformed guesses. He gave one other hint, which is Herbie. Too me the only two roots that are strong are Bb and G, and in both cases the chord functions as a b9 with a 13th. If I gave you the notes (top to bottom) D, A, E you would probably go in different directions if my hint was McCoy Tyner vs. Bill Evans. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 I think jazz+ was goin' for a Em chord and hit a clam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by burningbusch: Too me the only two roots that are strong are Bb and G, and in both cases the chord functions as a b9 with a 13th. Busch. G doesn't really make sense as a left hand chord. If you play it in the right hand and support it with G, F in the bass it's OK. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 16, 2006 Author Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by burningbusch: On the Herbie chord. Bb7(b9) #IV minor upper structure. Example, used in parallel harmonizing the melody, measures 24 - 27 Dolphin Dance. Busch. bingo Bb7(b9 #11) #IV minor upper structure = E-/Bb7 (rootless left hand voicing) Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Originally posted by Jazz+: Originally posted by burningbusch: On the Herbie chord. Bb7(b9) #IV minor upper structure. Example, used in parallel harmonizing the melody, measures 24 - 27 Dolphin Dance. Busch. bingo Bb7(b9 #11) #IV minor upper structure = E-/Bb7 (rootless left hand voicing) Yeah, a Bb7 - coulda sworn I said that earlier. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kad Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 This chord is a theoretical cliché. It's a diminished 7th with all of the "bite tones", meaning that for each tone in the diminished 7th structure, there is a tension tone a half step below. The tension tones as a whole form a second diminished 7th chord a whole step above the base diminished 7th chord. The base diminished 7th chord, being a vagrant structure, can have any one of four roots, depending upon the musical context. Think of this chord structure as being the pool of available notes for diminished harmony within a given musical context. The permutations therein are numerous... Reality is like the sun - you can block it out for a time but it ain't goin' away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Eb demolished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Originally posted by burningbusch: On the Herbie chord. Bb7(b9) #IV minor upper structure. Example, used in parallel harmonizing the melody, measures 24 - 27 Dolphin Dance. Busch. Counting from the repeat sign, I get this for measures 24-27: | E7 Dm7 | C#m7 | F#7 | Bm7 | Are those the bars you meant? Or did you mean bars 31-34: | Bbm7 | Bb7(b9) |Bb7 sus4 | Dm7b5 G7(b9) | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 btw, I think this thread is confusing, because we're talking about two different chords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 It's pretty cool what we can do with just a m3 isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementedchord Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 as to the first one... what strikes me is that the upper structer defines the possible roots of the lower if viewed as b9's... and totally out of context i would have called the second a strange spelling/voicing of an e #9.... "style is determined not by what you can play but what you cant...." dave brubeck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Originally posted by Floyd Tatum: Originally posted by burningbusch: On the Herbie chord. Bb7(b9) #IV minor upper structure. Example, used in parallel harmonizing the melody, measures 24 - 27 Dolphin Dance. Busch. Counting from the repeat sign, I get this for measures 24-27: | E7 Dm7 | C#m7 | F#7 | Bm7 | Are those the bars you meant? Or did you mean bars 31-34: | Bbm7 | Bb7(b9) |Bb7 sus4 | Dm7b5 G7(b9) | From the repeat, measures 21 - 24. Starts with Eb7 in the Real Book. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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