Layered synth sounds help!

[Ironstorm]

Hi I have a moog little phatty great bass sounds I use Roland pk5 pedals with the moog like Taurus pedals this works perfect for the Taurus sound. I am a bass guitar player and now that I have the Taurus sound at my feet I would like to enhance this. I am looking for that Rush Exit Stage Left sound? I spoke with Moog a tech named Amos told me this sound is beyond the LP`s limits he recomended useing something from the Roland JV series or his 2nd choice EMU Proteus He also suggested that I ask the for the help of the musicians on this forum as you guys problably know what would be the best setup for this. A sales rep from sweetwater online sales suggested the Roland Fantom rackmount or the Nord rackmount what do you people think. Remember I want to keep the low bass sound and overlay it with a high synth sound like Geddy Lee has on the exit stage left cd but I cannot aford an Oberhiem synth.

 

thanks Ironstorm

[Ironstorm]

also check out Moog Voyager topic for more details

 

Iromstorm

[Sven Golly]

MAYBE YOU SHOULD USE ALL CAPS MORE, AND DON'T FORGET LOTS AND LOTS OF PUNCTUATION SO THAT THIS TOPIC GETS OUR ATTENTION!!!!!!!

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH!!!

 

[Ironstorm]

Hey Sven do you have an answer to my question???

I see no reason for the D---H--- comment in your last reply. I`m only looking for some answers here and I have always been professional on this forum and I think your comment is uncalledfor.

What do you think your talking to some kid here, your not!!!!! I am 41 with almost 30 years of stage and studio experience. The only thing is that it is all in Bass guitar playing. So I thought people like yourself could help with this synth and sound module technology...

 

Ironstorm

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by Ironstorm:

Hey Sven do you have an answer to my question???

Again with the extraneous punctuation. Am I supposed to take you more seriously because you used three question marks? Sigh...

 

I see no reason for the D---H--- comment in your last reply.

Okay, let's take this slow for you.

 

Posting in all caps is considered equivalent to shouting.

 

Your posts are generally well-written, so you're obviously trying to call attention to your thread, which is completely unnecessary here on KC.

 

I`m only looking for some answers here and I have always been professional on this forum

...until this message...

 

and I think your comment is uncalledfor.

You're more than entitled to your opinion.

 

What do you think your talking to some kid here, your not!!!!!

It's "you're"... and why would you think I thought that? I could care less if you're 11, 41 or 81. Mind you, I know very few people in our age bracket that feel they need to over-embellish the written word with punctuation to convey their meaning.

 

I am 41 with almost 30 years of stage and studio experience.

This is relevant to the discussion how?

 

So I thought people like yourself could help with this synth and sound module technology...

We can... just stop yelling about it, and have a little patience.

 

Frankly, I don't have the answer to your question, for two reasons:

 

1) there is no single answer to your question. Any MIDI-capable module will do what you want, it's merely up to you to choose one that sounds good to your ear.

 

2) I'm not intimately familiar with the (nothing but) Rush examples that you're citing, so I don't feel like I should weigh in to advise you on what model to acquire.

 

If you think hard about it, I've helped you out in the past... so relax, stop getting so damned defensive, and avoid the all caps and superfluous punctuation, and folks will be able to help you out.

 

Oh, and for the record, I was going to break out my Rush vinyl to listen to the sounds you're hoping to get... but given your reply, I think I'll go watch TV instead.

[Ironstorm]

Ok Sven I am man enough to say I might have jumped the gun here. It`s been a bad day and I get a little frustrated when it comes to my music. I`m sure you have had those times when you know you can play or do something musicly and have a hard time doing it. Most of the time for me it`s not the hard things to play it`s the easy things you make mistakes on. Sorry for the DH comment that was wrong. I took your reply as you were trying to play some kind of game. It`s all about the music for me and I think we can work together here I hope you agree

 

Ironstorm

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by Ironstorm:

Sorry for the DH comment that was wrong. I took your reply as you were trying to play some kind of game. It`s all about the music for me and I think we can work together here I hope you agree

No worries... I've been known to be a bit of a "DH" at times.

 

I was razzing you with my first reply, but only because of the all caps... KC is a fantastic place with a ton of helpful folks here... a well-written, thorough message will get an answer every time.

 

I'm sure there are folks here that know the Rush synth palette well enough to help you out.

 

Good luck in your search.

 

SG

[Ironstorm]

We all can be a "DH" at times thats why we are musicians. Just look at Tina Turner and Elton John Haaaaaaaaaaa

 

Thanks Ironstorm

[Sven Golly]

Oh, incidentally... you can edit the title of your thread by clicking on the "Edit" link on your first message... it's the icon with the paper & pencil.

 

[Ironstorm]

Thanks for the tip

[Andre Lower]

OK Ironstorm you've got yourself a huge Rush fan here. My band covers a lot of Rush tunes (many from Exit..Stage Left) and I might be able to help you if you are a bit more specific upon asking your questions. Let me help you with this part:

 

1) Can you give me the name of a song (perhaps indicating a specific part of it) you are trying to cover?

 

2) You only mentioned you intend to layer your electric bass guitar sound with some synth sound. That could be understood as

a) reinforcing the very same notes you're playing in the bass guitar or

b) simply triggering some synth sounds while you play some other line in the bass guitar. Mind you, Geddy Lee does a lot of both instances on "Exit...Stage Left".

 

3) The construction of your original post confuses me in the sense that you first mention you already "have" the Taurus sound from the Little Phatty, but want to "enhance" it...you want to improve the Taurus sound or add some different, simultaneous sound to it?

 

In case our communication fail in some way or another, it would probably help you to know I get all of the sounds required for very good renditions of Rush tunes from an expanded Roland XP-30 and a cheap Alesis Micron. In fact you should be able to get what you want with several VA synths, being the Alesis Micron just an example of a cheap yet effective alternative. Ah, some knowledge of subtractive synthesis would not hurt either ...

[Ironstorm]

Hi Andre I will try to explain to the best of my agility what I am looking to do. 1.) I play Bass guitar and I am not looking to change the sound of my Guitar. 2.)Since you can`t buy Moog Taurus pedals anymore I bought a Moog Little Phatty synth and hooked up a set or Roland Pk5 foot pedals, they look a lot like the Taurus pedals but have no sound thus the LP for the Taurus sound.

 

3.)The sound I am looking for is right after the opening riff on Spirit of radio, it is also on the beginning of YYZ, it is also at the end of The Trees and runs into Xanadu on the Exit Stage Left cd. Geddy is doing this with his foot pedals / Taurus pedals. He has his deep bass pedal sound overlaped with a high synth sound im told it`s an Oberhiem but I can`t afford an Oberhiem so a tech at Moog music told me to look into a synth sound module to overlap my LP. He mentioned the Roland JV series but suggested I ask the players on this forum if there is something newer or better that you could suggest.

 

I hope this clears things up I don`t think I can explain it any better if you are not sure what Roland PK5 pedals are check out Rolands site but you need to type PK5 Pedals in the search box to find them

 

Thanks to everyone for your help

Ironstorm

[Ironstorm]

Hi anyone out there did this last reply help to clear things up

[Andre Lower]

Ironstorm,

 

I listened to the "Exit...Stage Left" intro to "Xanadu", and hope the sound I identified is the one you are looking for (you mean the drone note that sounds layered with the deep bass note sustained during the intro, right?). The sound I use for that is a slightly distorted saw wave, with two waveforms layered one octave apart. I have it programmed both on my XP-30 and my Micron, for it's a very common Rush staple sound.

 

You should be able to come up with something similar on many synths. I am not acquainted with the architecture of the Little Phatty, and wonder if it would allow you to layer different patches? If it is not capable I'd buy a cheap VA (Micron for instance) and stack the sounds via MIDI. That's pretty easy to do.

 

BTW this is the very same sound I use for the synth part which you hear on the opening of "Red Bachetta" both live and studio versions

 

Hope this helps.

[captainmri]

I used to play "Spirit of Radio" in a cover band and used my old Prophet 600 to do the sound of which you speak. I just played the part a few octaves apart and it worked fine. A Micron, Microkorg or pretty much any older synth either analog or VA would do the trick nicely. Like anything in the JV series.

 

Good luck and watch out for those obtrusive companions.

[Tusker]

Originally posted by Ironstorm:

Hi anyone out there did this last reply help to clear things up

I hate to see somebody buy an additional synth just for one sound. Not just the money but the complications.

 

Before trying to add another synth, just try detuning the oscillator on the Phatty a couple of octaves (or maybe one octave, don't remember the Rush drone offhand). Then pull the top oscillator down in volume and see if that helps. Finally try adding a little LFO modulation to the oscillators (preferably more to the lower one) if the Phatty let's you do that. Or instead of doing the LFO modulation, you may find that sending the Phatty's output through a subtle external chorus helps to fatten the layers appropriately.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Jerry

[Ironstorm]

Hi guys thanks for the help. Tusker I do have a chorus pedal I will try this first, not sure if it will work Moog techs tell me I am reaching beyond the limits of the Little Phatty and suggest I try overlaping has to do with only having 2 OSC`s. Yes Andre thats the sound I will check out the micron and micro korg and if I can find something in the JVseries Moog suggested the JV aswell but said to ask for opinions from players like you guys. A sales rep at sweetwater online sales in the synth dept mentioned The rackmount nord lead or the Roland fantom rackmount what do you think of these items?

 

Thanks everyone and I will watch those obtrusive companions.

Ironstorm

[Andre Lower]

I suspect the Little Phatty's architecture (only 2 oscillators) is bound to hinder your attempts at this sound and many others that you're bound to find on Rush tunes.

 

In case you really decide for a second synth, the Micron is hard to beat for the specific application you are describing. First of all, it's damn cheap, I bough mine new for USD 340. You won't be tweaking any controls live (that curbs the "congested" Micron's interface), won't be playing its keys (which are not exactly wonderful) but sure can benefit from the wealth of different filter models, three oscillators, sequencer/arpeggiator, etc.

 

It's MIDI implementation is good enough for your purposes too, and you can find several of the sounds you crave ready on the Yahoo Ion/Micron users group (I'm a member and even posted a folder with many of my Rush patches ).

 

Let us know when you decide.

[Ironstorm]

Thanks Andre I think I will go with your advice and look into getting the micron. Your right its cheap and after spending the money I just spent on the moog something cheaper is the way to go if I wan`t to save my marrage. I am going out this weekend to look at one. How do I get to the Yahoo Ion/Micron site.

 

You have been a great help

Thankyou very much

Ironstorm

 

P.S. I will let you know how things work out.

[soundscape]

Also check out http://www.synthmania.com/micron.htm

 

You'll find very well programmed presets relating to equipment/sounds in fashion during various eras, it should give you an idea of its capabilities.

[Andre Lower]

There you go:

 

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/alesis-ion/

 

A word of advice: Synthesizers are addictive, specially once you get a grip on how to coax the sounds you want from them. If your wife had any idea of how much, she'd forbid you to buy a Micron . Furthermore you might impress your bandmates so much that they could force you into live keyboard playing

[MikeT156]

Yep, the LP would be a limitation for the Rush sound you're looking for.

 

May I also suggest an Alesis ION, the big brother of the Micron. Why? Much easier to program. Yep, it's a little more expensive. I don't know that having to sort through a menu system is the best way for someone to get started on synthesizers. My good friend Andre is the ultimate perfectionist! He'll spend whatever time it takes to learn a synth to get what he wants out of it. I'm not that patient, old age creeping and such.

 

If you're a bass player, you probably want to play, not program (at least initially) The ION/Micron engine does a pretty good job of emulating Moog sounds. The ION has an absolutely ingenius User Interface. Actually I wish some of my vintage synths had that interface. It is very easy to layer up to 4 completely different sounds on one patch with the push of one, two, or three buttons. Can you say easy?

 

Please note, I previously owned Moog Taurus 1 bass pedals, Oberheim OBX, then an OBXa, still own a Prophet 5, a Moog Source, Arp Odyssey, and an Alesis Ion.

 

Now, that doesn't make me an expert synth programmer, it only means I know the difference in the sound of each of those synths, at least generally speaking.

 

That's why I can't figure out why the Sweetwater rep recommended a Roland Fantom X for that sound. Maybe he knows something I don't (I never owned a Roland Fantom anything) but it's been my experience that Roland synths never did Moog filters very well. Roland synths sound like......

Roland Synths.

 

Anyway, welcome aboard!

 

Mike T.

[Andre Lower]

Ironstorm,

 

Mike was kind enough to point out that being a novice to synths you could have problems with Micron's "compact" interface... he's right, and the interface features in Ion should make your journey into the realm of synthesis much more agreeable.

 

Then again it's important to know (or at least guess) how much time and effort you feel like spending in getting the sounds you want. Please don't be offended by what I'll write now, but in case you only want to use factory patches and maybe some patches already programmed by someone else, the Ion would be overkill.

 

However my guess is you'll be snared by the joys of synthesis and end up wanting at least to modify some parameters, play a bit with the filters, etc. in which case Mike's remark is right on the money and you'd be better off with an Ion ...>

[Ironstorm]

Hey guys I was just about to ask that question.

Would the Ion be a better choice my bandmates are already asking me about playing some basic keyboard parts

in a band meeting we had tonight. They mentioned from what they read online the Ion looks like a better choice in there opinion for only a few hundred more.

Easy for them to say I`M the one who has to pay for it. Learn how to control it play bass pedals and my fretless bass and learn keyboard parts. Maybe I should tell them I want 10% more of any money we make Haaa. You guys are right I know me and I will want to do more synth experamenting I already have the bug. Plus a band mate said I should be ashamed to put a Micron on the same rack with a Moog the Ion has more respect. You see how great minds think together.

 

Thanks again for all your help it`s been greatly appreciated

Ironstorm

[Andre Lower]

As I suspected, guys...he's hooked

 

Welcome to the forum and to some quality synth time, Ironstorm. You're bound to find that your status in the band will increase a lot with the power afforded by this new toy of yours. It is specially appealing to bass players, given the amazing sound palette made available at your feet through your PK controller.

 

Now you'd better get your wife some hobby real quick, so as to "even the balance"...mine has painting classes on Wednesday nights, which ties up the score of my Monday rehearsals with the band

[Ironstorm]

Well one good thing is that my wife used to play keyboards. After talking to her about it she said she might get back into it and maybe play at her church with her mom. The other good thing is that she is an RN and is on call constantly so she is not home alot. The only bad thing is my two bratty kids 10 and 11 but my 11 year old has a casio and is starting to get pretty good and is going to want to play with the Ion, Not so she will be crying to mom. The ten year old wants to play Guitar so maybe we will be the next Jackson 4 I`ll be teto Haaaaaaaaa.

 

Thanks again for your help guys

Ironstorm

[captainmri]

Don't forget National Nurses Week...every May.

[Ironstorm]

Oh I don`t she gets flowers and taken out to dinner. Then I ask her for a spong bath and ask her to keep that little nurses hat on and that white short skirt nurseing student uniform she always tells no. Same thing when I ask her if she still has her catholic school girl uniform.

 

But she had no problem asking me if I wanted her to wear the RN uniform when I brock my arm last year and was screaming in pain.

 

Now thats love nurseing style