Griffinator Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by keyper: What, I should benefit your wallet? What are ya - a Pinko? Adapt or die. Quick, somebody help - Griffinator's dying... No, I was under the impression you were an artist who placed value on your personal creative work. Obviously, I was mistaken. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by soundscape: Well this is an interesting case. I found a post on some forum that said that in the case of Aphex, the Behringer product even had the Aphex name on the circuit board--of course I have no idea if this is true. But I am wondering if they are reverse engineering or if their Far Eastern ODM/OEM suppliers were pinching circuit board designs off an Aphex line. Also whether Behringer actually designed their versions of the Mackie mixers, or a Far Eastern ODM. In the case of the Mackie mixers, Mackie produced their equipment from beginning to end in the USA before Behringer came along, so this was outright IP theft in the form of reverse-engineering. Aphex won their lawsuit against Behringer outright. Didn't really change the situation. Behringer got slapped on the wrist with a pitiful fine from an EU court, and kept right on their merry way. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyper Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Obviously, I was mistaken.... seems to happen to you quite a lot young fella...;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 No, you're a troll who showed up here and posted 20 times, 15 in this thread. So you confess you're not an artist, or if you are, you place no value on your creative work? Sorry, pal, but I bust my ass when I write. I place value on my compositions. I do not see them as some sort of "commodity" to be stolen and resold by someone else who happens to have better distribution channels than I... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 never mind - not stooping to that level.. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by Griffinator: In the case of the Mackie mixers, Mackie produced their equipment from beginning to end in the USA before Behringer came along, so this was outright IP theft in the form of reverse-engineering. Aphex won their lawsuit against Behringer outright. Didn't really change the situation. Behringer got slapped on the wrist with a pitiful fine from an EU court, and kept right on their merry way. Well, it's still not clear if it was Behringer that did the copying, or a third-party ODM (Original Design Manufacturer.) Not that I'm absolving Behringer of anything, I just like to be clear on the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyper Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 No, you're a troll who showed up here and posted 20 times, 15 in this thread... never mind - not stooping to that level..I'm neither a troll, nor stooping, hence your lack of quotable retaliation. Learn to argue your point dispassionately or people will mistake your passion for petulance. Thanks for the laughs fellas. I'm off for a beer. Later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaFunk Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Can someone direct griffinator back to the guitar forum , he appears a little lost.. You can give us a quick burst of stairway if ya like first.. actually on second thoughts... WHAT IS HIP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by Griffinator: Unfortunately, the EU court documents on this case, which used to be available online (5 years ago, when the Ebtech debacle began) are not anymore. However, here is a brief from a legal company that explains precisely the nature of the suit: http://www.legal500.com/devs/uk/ip/ukip_040.htm From said article... The case of Mackie Designs Inc v Behringer Specialised Studio Equipment (UK) Ltd & others brought this sharply into focus for the American company Mackie last year. Mackie brought a case of copyright infringement in the English High Court against three defendants who had copied the circuit diagram of a mixer manufactured and sold by Mackie. (A mixer is a piece of electrical equipment used in sound recording/amplification.) Mackie alleged that the second defendant, Mr Ulrich Behringer, had acquired a Mackie mixer and analysed the circuits in it, producing a 'net list' of its components and their interconnections. From that, a computer program was used to produce layouts for circuit boards to be manufactured by the German company Behringer Spezielle Studiotechnik GmbH, the third defendant. These were then sold in the UK by the first defendant, Behringer Specialised Studio Equipment (UK) Ltd. This, Mackie argued, indirectly infringed the copyright in the circuit diagram for the mixer which had itself been drawn by an American citizen in 1993.Reverse-engineering, in its purest form. However, the case triggered the UK to enact what is now known as the Unregistered Design Rights Act - which protects companies who have patent or copyright applied for from IP theft while those applications are in process. Well, that's a case that Mackie brought against Behringer--but all I can find over the outcome of any legal action is: "November 8, 1999 Woodinville, WA Mackie Designs Inc. (NASDAQ: MKIE) and Behringer Spezielle StudioTechnick GmbH announced today that the Companies have resolved all pending legal disputes between the parties. Under the agreement, the terms are to remain confidential and therefore, there will be no further or additional comment." I've found a some posts on newsgroups that say that, in fact, Behringer did NOT copy Mackie's design at all and that it's an exact copy is impossible even looking at the exterior of the products, but nothing from a 'definitive' source. For example: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.pro/msg/9c195e3668c5df7e However, that it's being debated at all suggests to me it's not as clear-cut as something Behringer exactly copied Mackie's circuit designs. Also, these posts indicate that Behringer has their own design facilities in Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by soundscape: However, that it's being debated at all suggests to me it's not as clear-cut as something Behringer exactly copied Mackie's circuit designs.Well, the simple fact is, there was significant debate at the outset of this thread that any of this legal action ever happened, or that any copying went on. Aphex sued and won on the same premises. Mackie sued and lost because of a nasty little loophole in UK law about the validity of US design patents. The companies later came to a settlement. Lack of information on the part of one side of a debate does not construe non-existence of such information. I'm not leveling that at you, as much as I'm leveling it at hordes of people who staunchly defend Behringer in much the same way neo-Nazis defend the Reichsstag by declaring that there is no "proof" that a Holocaust ever happened, and defying their opponents to provide otherwise. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by MaFunk: Can someone direct griffinator back to the guitar forum , he appears a little lost.. You can give us a quick burst of stairway if ya like first.. actually on second thoughts... That's cute. Except I spent more time on this forum in years past than I ever did on the Guitar forum. Why? I used to be heavily into synthesized music and performing with keys over strings. I still am, but on a more casual basis, hence I rarely post in the threads over here, although I am an avid "lurker" on this side of the forums. Didn't know you had to be a card-carrying professional keyboardist to post on these forums... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by Griffinator: Lack of information on the part of one side of a debate does not construe non-existence of such information. I'm not leveling that at you, as much as I'm leveling it at hordes of people who staunchly defend Behringer in much the same way neo-Nazis defend the Reichsstag by declaring that there is no "proof" that a Holocaust ever happened, and defying their opponents to provide it. I believe the information should be out there. It should not be too hard to obtain photos of the exterior of both mixers which should give a clues as to claims of the impossibility of a direct copy due to the layout or different external controls. There's a fair chance that someone has taken photos of the circuit boards, too, and posted them on the web. As for the Aphex case, I'm not clear on with this was a direct copy of the circuit, or patent infringement. My only interest is the truth and if that means admitting I'm wrong or even making myself look like a fool, so be it. I don't care for any blind partisanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by keyper: never mind - not stooping to that level..I'm neither a troll, nor stooping, hence your lack of quotable retaliation. What you just quoted was me editing a post where I was about to pull out the flamethrower. I'm doing my level best here to make this about the product, not you or me. Of course, the fact that you called me a "Pinko" doesn't speak much to your ability to argue "dispassionately" as you put it, but hey, only I'm bound by debating rules, right? You're free to flame on, since, as far as you're concerned, I'm "wrong".... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Originally posted by soundscape: My only interest is the truth and if that means admitting I'm wrong or even making myself look like a fool, so be it. I don't care for any blind partisanship. Totally understood - that's why I stated very clearly that I wasn't leveling that comment at you. What Mackie claimed was that Behringer copied the internal workings of their mixer. As to Behringer copying both internal and external and getting away with it, take a look at this: http://www.ebtechaudio.com/swizz.jpg http://www.behringer.com/CT100/CT100_medium.jpg I actually spoke to the head engineer at Ebtech when Behringer dropped their exact duplicate of Ebtech's unit. He affirmed that the guts were identical as well. I asked him if legal action was forthcoming. He told me that it would be bad press for Ebtech if they did, and they were too small a shop to even hope to survive the costs of a long court battle. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELP71 Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I've never had any problems with Behringer gear. I think the cost and the fact that they are kinda throwaway makes em great for bar gigs. Who cares if someone spills beer in that mixer, just get another one. Its like clothes at Old Navy. Weasels ripped my flesh. Rzzzzzzz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Originally posted by Griffinator: Behringer copying both internal and external and getting away with it, take a look at this:Looks like typical Far Eastern ODM/OEM product to me. I can't find any evidence either way, though. Also, on the subject of Mackie vs. Behringer, I found this from a forum post elsewhere: "The Mackie and the Behringer desks has not even got the same functions, so can you please explain how the circuit could be the same? Example: The Mackie has adjustable Q on the sweepable high mid EQ. The Behringer has not." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Originally posted by soundscape: Looks like typical Far Eastern ODM/OEM product to me. I can't find any evidence either way, though.No, the Ebtech unit is made in Illinois. Another case of Behringer buying a piece of equipment, tearing it apart and copying it, circuit for circuit. Reason why there's not much online about it was because EbTech didn't initiate legal action, for the reasons I explained above. Also, on the subject of Mackie vs. Behringer, I found this from a forum post elsewhere: "The Mackie and the Behringer desks has not even got the same functions, so can you please explain how the circuit could be the same? Example: The Mackie has adjustable Q on the sweepable high mid EQ. The Behringer has not." [/QB]If they're talking about the current iterations of said mixers, of course they're different. That was part of the settlement. Remember - that case is 14 years old. Lot has happened since then... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Originally posted by Griffinator: Originally posted by soundscape: Looks like typical Far Eastern ODM/OEM product to me. I can't find any evidence either way, though.No, the Ebtech unit is made in Illinois. Another case of Behringer buying a piece of equipment, tearing it apart and copying it, circuit for circuit. Reason why there's not much online about it was because EbTech didn't initiate legal action, for the reasons I explained above.There is plenty online about it, actually, including a thread on this forum from four years ago. All of these threads on various forums follow the 'Behringer sucks' vs. 'Behringer is cheap so I'll buy them anyway' vs. 'Behringer doesn't suck' format. Chances are, whatever ODM/OEM deals are going on aren't public knowledge, anyway. If they're talking about the current iterations of said mixers, of course they're different. That was part of the settlement. Remember - that case is 14 years old. Lot has happened since then... I would imagine they are talking about the relevant versions. Given the model # of both items, it shouldn't be too tough to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Originally posted by soundscape: Chances are, whatever ODM/OEM deals are going on aren't public knowledge, anyway. Well, that one in particular, I spoke with the source on the phone personally, and unless he lied to me, Behringer ripped them off. There was no ODM deal. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Originally posted by Griffinator: Originally posted by soundscape: Chances are, whatever ODM/OEM deals are going on aren't public knowledge, anyway. Well, that one in particular, I spoke with the source on the phone personally, and unless he lied to me, Behringer ripped them off. There was no ODM deal. Well, I hear what you're saying but a secondary source (you) who had a phone call with someone with a vested interest is not what I call adequate evidence to come to a firm conclusion. My only view is that I don't know the answer, certainly not enough to run around calling people cheats and liars. I'm reading lots of different things about these cases, including people who claim to have visited Behringer's R&D facilities; I'm not going to "believe" what they say without further question, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I'd suggest you do as I did, which is call Ebtech yourself and ask them. The gentleman I spoke to in engineering was quite amiable. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebopple Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebopple Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Now I understand why this thread was so weirrrrd it was the nine hundred and ninety ninth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Interestingly, Behringer has moved its R&D to the Philippines... http://www.itmatters.com.ph/news.php?id=061305a "The reason why we have now 70 people and still expanding is because the engineers and graphic artists here are really world-class and as good as the European, and that is why we closed down the German R&D [center to move here to the Philippines]." -- Uli Behringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Griffinator, Thanks for all of your documentation regarding Behringer's infringements. As someone who was awarded three patents last year, I take intellectual property very seriously, even while I challenge the looseness with which they are awarded for ideas or designs that are so obvious that it's like patenting the 'concept" of "air". I am now putting my few remaining Behringer items on eBay, and will never buy anything by them again. I thought they had merely mimicked popular items from various manufacturers -- I did not realise the extent of their "reverse"-engineering (if one can even call it that). I own the EZTech Swizz Army device and do hope they are able to stay in business. It was a remarkable and novel concept at the time, and I can sympathise with their inability to challenge things. Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Originally posted by Mark Schmieder: Griffinator, Thanks for all of your documentation regarding Behringer's infringements. As someone who was awarded three patents last year, I take intellectual property very seriously, even while I challenge the looseness with which they are awarded for ideas or designs that are so obvious that it's like patenting the 'concept" of "air". I am now putting my few remaining Behringer items on eBay, and will never buy anything by them again. I thought they had merely mimicked popular items from various manufacturers -- I did not realise the extent of their "reverse"-engineering (if one can even call it that). I own the EZTech Swizz Army device and do hope they are able to stay in business. It was a remarkable and novel concept at the time, and I can sympathise with their inability to challenge things. Glad I could help! A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Originally posted by Mark Schmieder: Griffinator, Thanks for all of your documentation regarding Behringer's infringements. What documentation? A court case that was settled out of court? Infringement of Aphex's patents? A cable tester--a terribly complex device compared to (for example) Behringer's digital mixers?! Why on earth would they copy it exactly? We could at least have the model numbers of the respective Behringer and Mackie mixers to do a feature/external controls comparison and see if Behringer really could have exactly copied Mackie's circuits. Probably the main lesson of this thread for me is that it's insane for individuals to 'police' companies in this way. It's enough effort to research the truth and maybe in some cases (the cable tester) it's impossible without legal authority. (What should I do, call Behringer and ask them if the product is original, too?) I'm reminded of when Shell didn't sink an oil rig (Brent Spa) at sea (but dismantled it on land) because Greenpeace campaigned against it and people started boycotting Shell, particularly in countries such as Germany. Unfortunately it would have been better environmentally to sink it. Thankfully I don't think Behringer will be suffering from any major boycotts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Originally posted by soundscape: A cable tester--a terribly complex device compared to (for example) Behringer's digital mixers?! Why on earth would they copy it exactly? You tell me. They've been doing it the entire time they've been in business... Come on, man. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Originally posted by Griffinator: Originally posted by soundscape: A cable tester--a terribly complex device compared to (for example) Behringer's digital mixers?! Why on earth would they copy it exactly? You tell me. They've been doing it the entire time they've been in business... Come on, man. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck... Yes, I'm sure that evidence would stand up in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 It did in Aphex v Behringer and Roland v Behringer... It's cool. At this point, I'm pretty well certain you won't be convinced by any amount of empirical evidence. I've given you what I could dig up through quick Google searches. They've got a long and ugly track record of doing crap like this. If your entire opinion on the matter hinges on the Mackie case, then I don't know what to tell you. I can't find pictures of the original Eurodesk and Mackie 8-buss that triggered the suit. They're definitely not the same now - Behringer's units don't have a lot of features that come standard on the Mackies. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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