Do the peace protesters realize...???

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b] We're all generally pissed for good reason, I'm sorry I let my emotions get out of hand...apology accepted...please accept mine. This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 10-11-2001 at 08:14 PM [/b][/quote] Good point, Steve. Funny thing, because I think to a degree we all agree on the point that violence is bad, and as I mentioned in my reply to Spacebass, only fools are warmongers. But, sometimes, sadly, we must use any means possible to protect our families. Let's have a beer, huh? I'll buy...

[fuzz]

[b]Let's have a beer, huh? I'll buy...[/b] i hear ya man....i just cracked one open [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[Steve LeBlanc]

My wife called about a half hour ago to tell me she loves me and that she picked up a 12pack for me. I LOVE MY WIFE! Leaving work in about 5 minutes...later y'all.

[rold]

I've been trying to figure this out for a little while now, maybe someone here can help. Why are natives called american "Indians"? Doesn't the word "Indian" refer to people from India? I'm really confused on this one.. It's not a loaded question; really I am just curious.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Thanks, Harold

[Hippie]

Because when Columbus landed,he actually thought he went all the way around the world and ran into the eastern coast of India.

[rold]

seriously?

[stratman_dup1]

If I remember my history correctly Harold, that is exactly correct. Columbus truly thought he was in India when he first landed here. Hence the name Indians.

[sign]

It were the vikings who first landed here right?

[rold]

Sweet...thanks, guys...I really had no clue...I've been pondering that question for a long time though never have brought it up..just didn't make sense to me...now I can finally put the question to rest.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Thanks, Harold

[lrossmusic]

[b]Johnnie Red[/b]I was wondering if you knew the history of the Palestine/Israel problem? Someone told me that it goes way back to biblical times and that both groups stemed from the same tribe. I know that they are fighting over land but not much of the details. Is this one big family feud stretched out over thousands of years or how can you simplify it if possible? Thanks P.S. I just asked Johnnie because judging from his posts he seems to have a pretty good knowledge of Mid-Eastern history but I would appreciate anyone's help on the subject if you have the time.

[miroslav]

[quote]Originally posted by lrossmusic@hotmail.com: [b][b]...history of the Palestine/Israel problem? Someone told me that it goes way back to biblical times and that both groups stemed from the same tribe. I know that they are fighting over land but not much of the details. Is this one big family feud stretched out over thousands of years or how can you simplify it if possible?[/b][/quote] Well it was really between, two lonely shepherds, on a star filled night, over a female sheep named Daisy...and here we are 2 thousand years later. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] This message has been edited by miroslav on 10-12-2001 at 10:24 AM

[KenElevenShadows]

>> We have tried to broker peace and have never been against the Palestinians. WHAT HAVE WE DONE TO DESERVE SUCH HATE??????????? NOTHING!!!!!! THESE ARE IRRATIONAL RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS! >> Many Muslims in the Middle East are upset because of many reasons, of which I will list several. These would include our involvement in what we call Desert Storm; "creating" Saddam Hussein by training him to fight in our own self-interests at the time (against Khomeini); bombing pharmaceutical plants and medical facilities in 1998 was a giant mistake for which an apology was never issued; training people in Afghanistan to use high-powered weapons to fight the Soviets in a brutal war that devastated the country and left everything, including any form of rule or government, in complete shambles -- and then simply walking away while leaving these people with weapons in charge (it's important to realize that the U.S. *created* people like bin Laden); funding billions of dollars in weapons to Israel every year while going under the guise that we are assisting in their negotiations with the Palestinians -- the very same Palestinians who are being killed by our weapons (and try being a Palestinian Christian or Palestinian Muslim in Israel and see how you are treated, btw -- it's ugly); our troops still stationed in Saudi Arabia on Holy Land under the guise of "keeping the peace" when they are really primarily watching U.S. oil interest. I believe that it has been something like 1200 years since a foreign military presence has occupied the Holy Land -- and yes, many Muslims, including Saudis, view the U.S. military presence there as "occupation", not "helping". If there were camels there and no oil, do you really feel that the U.S. would station troops there? I absolutely love my country. I do, however, feel it's important to try as much as possible to obtain a balanced view. Our foreign policy is not always fair to other countries, and this unfortunately does not just extend to the Middle East. We are often perceived as a giant bully, doing things primarily in our own self-interests. The more I travel, the more I see this. We support governments based on our self-interests, train local troops to fight for us, and then bolt if there is no reason to be there any longer. Consider for a moment why other countries, such as Canada, Switzerland, Sweden, Australia, or many others aren't the object of loathing on the part of some Muslims, and you may arrive at the conclusion that this largely has to do with foreign policy. Lastly, I want to try and point out that although many Muslims may be upset at our bullying foreign policy, most do NOT condone the terrorist attacks. It is against what they believe in. There is only a small minority who feel that these terrorist attacks were a wonderful thing. Muslim people are not sick people. Most do not believe that killing innocent people is right. I have received several emails from my friends in Kashmir and Morocco who are absolutely horrified at what happened. While Muslims in the Middle East may be upset at our policies there, they do not condone the actions of a few nutcases. We would do better to try and fully understand and appreciate the point of view that others in the Middle East have towards us, and let this optimistically influence our foreign policy. ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows

[KenElevenShadows]

>> It were the vikings who first landed here right? >> The landed here way before Columbus. There is strong evidence to suggest that, believe it or not, the Chinese also landed here (ancient large stone anchors with Chinese inscriptions have been found off our coasts). I honestly cannot remember who was first, the Vikings or the Chinese. That reason of why American natives are frequently called "Indians" given above is the same reason that I heard as well. Columbus was trying to find a quicker way to India, and bumped into the wrong land mass mistakenly. Didn't have Mapquest back then! ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by rold: [b]I've been trying to figure this out for a little while now, maybe someone here can help. Why are natives called american "Indians"? Doesn't the word "Indian" refer to people from India? I'm really confused on this one.. It's not a loaded question; really I am just curious.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Thanks, Harold[/b][/quote] Columbus was seeking a new trade route to the East Indies. According to the story, that's where he thought he was when he landed. The Caribbean countries are sometimes referred to now as the "West Indies". At any rate, he referred to the indigenous people as "Indians".

[olhhyperback.com]

The underlying evil in all of this is plain and simple personal greed. Nobody has a monopoly on manipulating and then using public opinion to further their own pocketbooks. ------------------ Bob's work room (615) 352-7635

[lrossmusic]

[quote]Ken/Eleven Shadows wrote; [b]...(the U.S. is) funding billions of dollars in weapons to Israel every year while going under the guise that we are assisting in their negotiations with the Palestinians –[/b][/quote] Ken, two questions for you. (1) How has our government justified this military aid to Israel? (2) What is a brief history of the Israeli/Palestine dispute?

[Philip OKeefe]

[quote]Originally posted by sign: [b]It were the vikings who first landed here right?[/b][/quote] The first landings generally accepted by historians and with archiological evidence to support the claims were indeed made by Vikings - Lief Erickson at around the first millenium, if I remember MY history correctly. The Vikings had colonized both Iceland and Greenland (Iceland's green and Greenland's mostly ice - go figure) and the N. American continent is not too far from Greenland, if you look at a globe. There's several other claims for European landings in N. America that predate the Viking landings. Being an American of Irish descent, I've heard the stories of St. Brendan (circa 5th century) all my life. But regardless of which Europeans got here first, none of their landings resulted in perm. settlements until Columbus. And as far as I'm concerned, the Native Americans (who most likely came to N. America from Asia via the Barrents straight "land bridge" durring the last Ice Age) have not fared very well since the advent of Europeans in N. America. They were decimated by war, disease (smallpox was unheard of in N. America until the Europeans showed up and therefore the Native population had no resistance to it whatsoever), and policies. Sure, the Native Americans fought sometimes brutal wars among themselves. Their culture and beliefs were different. But they got a raw deal in the extreme. Any time we wanted whatever they had, we "relocated" them or just flat out took it. Even if there was a treaty granting them land, we were willing to break it and relocate them yet again if we found, for example, gold on the land we had "given" them. And the concept of "land ownership" was foreign to most of the Native Americans - they believed that people belonged to the land, not the other way around, so early on, they were all to eager to trade it for next to nothing simply because they didn't understand the concept and what they were doing. Are they and were they perfect? Nope... but all in all, the treatment of the Native Americans is one of the blacker marks on US history (so was the treatment of west coast American citizens of Japaneese descent durring WWII - which is something we should keep in mind concerning Americans of Arabic descent in the middle of this current crisis), and that's why, although I don't really approve of gambling in general, I always vote for allowing the "Indians" to have casinos on their lands if they want to. Heck, most of the land we've "given" them isn't good for much else, and they deserve a chance to have a future with dignity. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html pokeefe777@msn.com

[lrossmusic]

[quote]Bob Olhsson wrote; [b]The underlying evil in all of this is plain and simple personal greed.[/b][/quote] Wrath is another great evil at play here as well. Especially since Bin Laden appears to thinks he is God or God's ordained minister of retribution. I'm sure a few of those young Arabs he's brainwashed have figured it out on there own but it's too late so they are going to die whether they stay or try to escape. [b][i]wrath[/b][/i] n 1: forceful, often vindictive anger 2: punishment or vengeance as a manifestation of anger 3:divine retribution for sin. [b][i]greed[/b][/i] n 1: excessive desire to acquire or possess more (esp material wealth) than one needs or deserves 2: reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins) This message has been edited by lrossmusic@hotmail.com on 10-12-2001 at 05:07 PM

[KenElevenShadows]

---------------------- lrossmusic@hotmail.com wrote: Ken, two questions for you. (1) How has our government justified this military aid to Israel? (2) What is a brief history of the Israeli/Palestine dispute? ---------------------- 1. I don't know, honestly. We do spend a ton of money on Israel. At the bottom of this post, I've listed a few of the many web sites that tackle this issue. However, I really don't know what justification our government gives specifically to continue funding such a heaping amount to Israel. I can engage in conjecture, but that wouldn't nearly be as helpful as hearing it from our own government's mouth. 2. It's really hard to summarize the Israeli/Palestinian conflict briefly. I am largely going off memory and a couple of articles that I received a while back. I believe that most of my facts are essentially correct, however, but am only to happy to receive *friendly* corrections or additional information. From approximately 1500-1917, Palestine was mostly ruled by the Muslims, including the Ottomans (Turks). After the Ottoman rule, Palestine came under British administration, and was known as a "British Protectorate" (you can already see where this is going, can't you? Can you say "India/Pakistan?"). During this time, there was considerable Jewish immigration into this area, greatly influenced by the rise of the Nazis. Many Jewish settlers saved their own lives by moving to Palestine. However, during this mass influx, conflicts arose between the new Jewish settlers and the native inhabitants, most of whom were Arab Muslims (and a small population of Arab Christians). The Jewish immigration and land purchases displaced many of the locals. What further fueled this conflict was the fact that the Muslims, Jews, and Christians shared common places of worship. In 1948, in an attempt to solve this problem, the British decided to try and partition the two sides (again, can you say "India/Pakistan"?). The two sides were sectioned off so that there was a Jewish side and an Arab side, with Jerusalem as an international zone that was free of Jewish or Arab rule. Immediately after the British pushed this through into law (with the aid of the U.N.), the neighboring countries of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq had an absolute fit, and the factions went to war. After this bitter war, Israel had gained much of the Gaza area and parts of Jordan, extending their borders past the U.N.-sanctioned zones. Additionally, Jerusalem was divided into Israeli/Jordanian rule. However, in 1950, Israel designated Jerusalem as its capital, although this was not recognized by most other countries. Tensions continued. In 1967, there was the Six Day War. I believe that first, Egypt blocked Israeli shipping and kept forces at the border. Israeli attacked Egypt. Jordan joined in against Israel. However, Israel won, and now controlled not only the aforementioned Gaza area, but also the West Bank, the entire Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights. These areas, populated by Palestinians, are the fuel for the conflict. Since Israel has occupied these regions, they have engaged in extremely controversial settlements. In the mid-90s, (this is brief and by no means complete), negotiations were well under way for the gradual evaporation of Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, after which Palestinians would take control. However, these negotiations were shot down with the assassination of Rabin, Israeli's Prime Minister, by an Israeli right wing extremist in November 1995. Since then, progress has been slow to non-existent. The main areas of contention continue to be Jerusalem, the fate of the Jewish settlements in the Gaza area and the West Bank, and whether over two million Palestinians have the right to return to their homes in Israel. Palestine is asking for their own Palestinian state consisting of Gaza and the West Bank, with Jerusalem as their capital. The Arabs surrounding the area also seem to favor this Palestinian state, which was first considered during the U.N. decision back in 1948. President Bush has recently stated that he will consider the creation of a Palestinian state. However, as of this writing, he has only met with Israel's Prime Minister, Sharon, and has not met with Arafat, Palestine's leader, to discuss this further, although this conversation seems likely relatively soon. The Palestinians, from their point of view, have had much of their land taken over by the Israelis, as described above, feel largely jilted by the creation of partition, and are constantly bombed by Israeli bombs that are largely funded by U.S. dollars. That their people are being killed by superior weaponry funded by the U.S. cannot feel too good. The Israelis are surrounded by Arab states that are extremely hostile to their very existence, for reasons described above, and many Israelis feel that the long history of Arabic opposition necessitates the use of force, military defense, and control to keep safe. What we have gone through with the terrorist attacks, Israelis have had to live with for quite some time. ------------------ These are some interesting sites that you can visit if you want. They are primarily about the U.S. funding of Israel. They don't really answer your excellent question of WHY our government states that we fund Israel so heavily, but they do offer suggestions as to what the results are doing with those funds to Palestinians. Americans paid the Israeli Government over the same 50 years a total of: 77 billion in tax payer dollars 5.5 billion dollars in grants and loans in 1996 15 million dollars per day (628,000/hour) 7 times as much as U.S. aid to all of Africa in 1996 6 times as much as the US spent on famine relief for the entire planet in 1996 $1.2 billion in straight cash grants to Israel http://www.studentsallied.com/us_aid_israel.html gives a partial list of how much money we spend on Israel. http://www.mediamonitors.net/susan3.html http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0697/9706021.htm http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1298/9812043.html http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/palestine/topTenReasons.html Top Ten Reasons to Oppose U.S. Aid to Israel http://www.aaiusa.org/elections/issue_page.asp?issueid=12 ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows This message has been edited by Ken/Eleven Shadows on 10-12-2001 at 05:32 PM This message has been edited by Ken/Eleven Shadows on 10-12-2001 at 05:35 PM

[KenElevenShadows]

Hey Phil (and anyone else), thought you might be interested in this article: http://www.millersv.edu/~columbus/papers/wrhagen.html This concerns who really did discover America first. Interesting! I've read several other articles of this ilk as well. Enjoy! ------------------ Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er/Nectar http://www.elevenshadows.com 4 music, travel, more! http://www.cdbaby.com/elevenshadows

[lrossmusic]

Ken/Eleven Shadows, thank you so much for your time. Your clear summary helps a lot. I kind of sensed it would be difficult to 'briefly' outline the Israeli/Palestine situation but I sorely need to be educated in this area. Over the years I have heard little news bites here and there but I have been more or less consumed by my full time struggle to survive the music biz. I will certainly check out the references you provided and again I sincerely appreciate your generous help.

[Steve LeBlanc]

Hey Lincoln, just wanted to say I've been bouncing around a lot of different message boards recently and you are one of maybe 3 people who actually asked for information about what's going on. Most people seem more interested in pretending to know it all than to actually seek out knowledge about what's been going on in that part of the world. In the last month I've been on a crash course in Pakistan's history of the last 50 years...we all have so much to learn really...teaching what you know is good but too many people shut off the desire to learn in the process. Just wanted to say that. Peace and Love, Steve

[rold]

Hi guys, Thanks for the clarification and histories of the "american-indian" thing; it really was baffling my mind before this...just couldn't understand why they would be called - and calling themselves indians when AFAIK they weren't from india. I can finally put it to rest.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Also, Phil - the troubles the native peoples have been dealing with are the same in Canada too...it wasn't until the early 90's that they started receiving more fair treatment, and last year our federal government formally apologized to them for the injustices they faced since "civilized" societies came here. White>native racism is still a serious problem here though the government and justice systems are finally admitting the problems and dealing with them before they become overwhelming. Good to see things move forward to a more humanitarian position.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Thanks again, Harold

[Philip OKeefe]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [b]Hey Phil (and anyone else), thought you might be interested in this article: http://www.millersv.edu/~columbus/papers/wrhagen.html This concerns who really did discover America first. Interesting! I've read several other articles of this ilk as well. Enjoy! [/b][/quote] A nice and interesting read. Thanks for sharing this Ken! Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html pokeefe777@msn.com This message has been edited by pokeefe777@msn.com on 10-12-2001 at 10:47 PM

[olhhyperback.com]

I agree that there is plenty of wrath involved however I see that as being the fuel rather than the motivation of the organizers. Controlling a government means controlling a nation's wealth. While the biggest industrialists in the west want to profit from cheap oil by keeping the "right" people in power, our adversary is pretty clearly taking his shot at taking over the entire Muslim world's governments. The actions of all sides are contrary to the most basic teachings of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths. In fact all of the sides are absolutely correct about each other's moral shortcomings. But this isn't about being right. Everybody involved is BOTH right and wrong about each other. It's really about who controls the governments in a large part of the world. Anger, ignorance and wrath about what's right or wrong are exactly what one manipulates in order to divide people and take over governments. It's a thousand years' old formula, the stuff all wars have been created from. The only reason there are wars is because people disagree about what is just and politicians can exploit gut-wrenching moral disagreements in order to gain power. In the end the only solution lies in the mutual recognition of the fact that "them" has really been "us" all along. Unfortunately none of us can untangle centuries of prejudice in a short time so we are left defending our selves from crazy people on all sides who think killing each other can accomplish something.

[lrossmusic]

[quote][b]posted by Bob Olhsson; While the biggest industrialists in the west want to profit from cheap oil by keeping the "right" people in power, our adversary is pretty clearly taking his shot at taking over the entire Muslim world's governments. [i]The actions of all sides are contrary to the most basic teachings of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths. In fact all of the sides are absolutely correct about each other's moral shortcomings.[/i] But this isn't about being right. Everybody involved is BOTH right and wrong about each other. It's really about who controls the governments in a large part of the world. Anger, ignorance and wrath about what's right or wrong are exactly what one manipulates in order to divide people and take over governments. [i]It's a thousand years' old formula, the stuff all wars have been created from.[/i] The only reason there are wars is because people disagree about what is just and politicians can exploit gut-wrenching moral disagreements in order to gain power. [i]In the end the only solution lies in the mutual recognition of the fact that "them" has really been "us" all along.[/i] Unfortunately none of us can untangle centuries of prejudice in a short time so we are left defending our selves from crazy people on all sides who think killing each other can accomplish something.[/quote][/b] Pure uncut wisdom Bob and in my book you have succeeded in breaking things down to the lowest common denominators, so to speak, and without even exceeding 250 words. Understandably emotions are running high and certainly there will always be a lot of ways to look at things, but anyone with a gift for what might be characterized as ‘plain, simple, concise, objective analysis’ is Heaven sent during another very heartbreaking page in human history.

[lrossmusic]

[quote]Steve LeBlanc wrote; [b]In the last month I've been on a crash course in Pakistan's history of the last 50 years...[/b][/quote] You know Steve I really haven’t paid too much attention to politics or foreign affairs but rather have had my head buried in a world of musical sounds and rhythms, mixers and faders, etc. probably like most of us who visit these boards. But now like you I am on crash course for sure and have definitely picked up a whole lot lately from some very knowledgeable folks who post here. What a great resource! Thanks

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]In the end the only solution lies in the mutual recognition of the fact that "them" has really been "us" all along. Unfortunately none of us can untangle centuries of prejudice in a short time so we are left defending our selves from crazy people on all sides who think killing each other can accomplish something.[/quote] Wow, very well said...so true.

[fantasticsound]

.. This message has been edited by fantasticsound on 10-13-2001 at 05:54 PM

[fantasticsound]

..