Do the peace protesters realize...???

[E-money]

I think everyone has a right to express their opinions, and I think Johnnie Red makes some valid points about America's involvement in the middle east. I personally would like to see America exert a little more influence over Israel, I think the money we supply them should allow this. It's hard for us as Americans to understand how so many people in that part of the world can hate us, when most Americans are apathetic to the situation. But to the arab child whose house is rolled over by an Israeli tank that was funded by American dollars, it's pretty clear. Where I disagree with Johnnie, I don't believe this has that much to do with Iraq and what we're doing there. The two leading causes of death to Iraq are heart disease and diabetes, and these diseases are generally not the result of starvation. I do compare this Bin Ladden asshole to Hitler, a mad man with too much influence, and I think he should be put down. Of course, I could wrong.

[captain54]

[quote]Originally posted by johnnie red: [b] The truth is, US policy isn’t dictated by humanitarian intentions. As Lawrence Korb, assistant defense secretary under Reagan said as the US prepared for the military assault on Iraq in 1991, “If Kuwait grew carrots, we wouldn’t give a damn.” [/b][/quote] Your argument here holds no water because if Kuwait grew carrots, Hussein wouldn't have given a damn either, and "Desert Storm" would have never existed...I suppose it would have been perfectly fine with you if Hussein should have been allowed to run rampant in Kuwait, and who knows where next, further feeding his power hungry frenzy....If that would have been the case, you might have been sucking on anthrax a long time ago.... By the very fact that the U.S. is a strong powerful nation, we are going to be despised either way...It's a no win situation...For every instance in history were we have stuck our nose into other peoples business, there is an equal instance where we are critized for not being involved...some of the older timers in Eastern Europe are still pissed at Roosevelt and the U.S. for not clamping down on Hitler's reign of terror there sooner... Everything changed September 11th, my friend....for the first time in this countries history we were seriously attacked on our mainland...of the 6,000 or so butchered, double or triple that number for sons, daughters, wifes, husbands, etc., who live's are forever altered.... We are dealing with an enemy in this case that took advantage of our freedoms and shoved it down our throats.... If you believe there is a peaceful, diplomatic way to settle this, than you truly are living in a suspended state of non-reality....this network of perpetrators have been conditioned from practically infancy to fight the infidels and stomp on them mericilessly until every last one of us is extinquished...there's not enough whiskey on earth to get any normal human being to slash the throats of the flight crew and then drive a jet into a tall building filled with people...Apparently, these psychos had no problem...and it's the fault of U.S. for crappy foreign policy??? I don't think so...It's something much deeper than that.... Most of us in the U.S., I believe, would sincerely wish a non-violent approach would work...However, we are dealing with people who already think we are soft, cowardly, vulnerable, and don't have the guts to fight back...that is why I believe a non-violent approach is totally out of the question...

[Steve LeBlanc]

A few relevant articles: [url=http://www.zmag.org/chatwithchom.htm]Chat with Noam Chomsky[/url] http://www.judicialwatch.org/press_release.asp?pr_id=1624 http://emperors-clothes.com/news/bushladen.htm This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 10-10-2001 at 03:43 PM

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by captain54: [b] Your argument here holds no water because if Kuwait grew carrots, Hussein wouldn't have given a damn either, and "Desert Storm" would have never existed...I suppose it would have been perfectly fine with you if Hussein should have been allowed to run rampant in Kuwait, and who knows where next, further feeding his power hungry frenzy....If that would have been the case, you might have been sucking on anthrax a long time ago.... Most of us in the U.S., I believe, would sincerely wish a non-violent approach would work...However, we are dealing with people who already think we are soft, cowardly, vulnerable, and don't have the guts to fight back...that is why I believe a non-violent approach is totally out of the question... [/b][/quote] AMEN. ------------------ A "great satan infidel" and PROUD of it.

[strat0124]

Well we've picked and switched sides so much in that area its damn hard to keep track of. All I know is the madmen that committed that act and the support system should be found and eliminated. Having said that, we need to back up and regroup and realize the consequences of our actions. We could bankrupt the middle east in ten years if we swapped to alternate energy sources that ARE AVAILABLE now. Then they could throw camel dung at us from afar..... I doubt we'd be less enthusiastic about our expansionism and world police ventures if foreign navies and armies surrounded us in peacetime, devalued our belief system and changed alliances at will depending on the flow of oil....and who controlled it. Still no excuse for terrorism. But to me all we are accomplishing with bombing another country is strengthing that countries resolve.....it would and DID to me on Sept 11th. We have to acknowledge the ROOT cause of all this, and rectify it. As a veteran, and proud American, I stand by our country and our people to the death.....but we do have to come to terms with why this happened, until then there will hundreds, maybe thousands of Bin Ladens with plenty of folks willing to bankroll them. I want to get some payback like any other American, but not at any cost. I don't consider someone excerising free speech anti-American, and I will defend their right to do so. Some folks forget tolerance is what America is all about. To hate war is not a bad thing.....those of us who have seen it know that. Colin Powell is a smart MOFO....he recognized that the Palestinian question is essential to solving this conflict, but the hawks debunked him. Peace isn't a given.....its something earned and defended, we just need to do both....not just defend it. Peace to you all.

[BP3]

I hope this rant never becomes reality! Imagine Bin Laden has just one nuclear weapon. How would he use it? Would he risk the travel to move it to the US, or Europe? Would he use it in the Middle East pretending it was an Israeli strike? Or would he'd keep it close to him, wherever he goes, knowing that at some time his deeds would catch up to him? And then.... use it as the ultimate suicide bomber. He would set it off, killing himself and many, many thousands of others. His goal - to have the Muslim world interpret the nuclear explosion as one of US origin. Thereby insuring his legacy to the confused masses as a martyr, and fueling the hatred of the "western" influence for decades to come. This would be his goal fulfilled a hundredfold. This is how out of control this enemy is. This is not beyond him. I only hope that I didn't give him the idea in my rant here. It certainly is a concept I hope our military and leaders have considered. The enemy we fight now is capable of [b]any horror you can think of[/b]! Peaceful means are not understood by them. Any path toward a peaceful resolution with them is bound to be fruitless. How do we deal with such terrorists? I think Bush and the Allies have been on point pretty much so far. You have to think of this threat as a cancer. When you discover cancer you have to [b]kill[/b] it! You don't talk to it. You don't sit back and hope it goes away. You don't make friends with it. You simply try to kill it without killing the patient. How do you kill this cancer? First you deal with the money. If you can cut off the blood to the cancer cell it can't live, or at least becomes weaker. This tactic is brilliant in the plan to deal with Bin Laden. Without finance, he is cut off at the knees. Done so in such a way where no bombs are dropped, no civilians killed. Second, you intervene with serious drugs (military intervention). This is where good cells can die when trying to kill the cancer. Understand the goal is still to save the patient. This is where we are now. Would I like to be here now. NO. But this cancer has killed people from 80 countries in one day. Believe me, they would have killed a hundred, no make that a thousand times as many if they could. This is what we are up against. Just as cancer drugs and therapies are becoming more advanced and less deadly to healthy cells, our military has become much better at minimizing the "collateral damage" (damn, I hate that term) when using military force. Some innocent lives will be lost in war. We have to do what's needed to make it as small as possible, but there is no such thing as a perfect war. How did we get here? Just as you or I might eat, drink, smoke, or otherwise do things that cause a cancer to happen, our country in some part has caused this cancer to rise. The government (doctors) did not see, or diagnose this cancer for what it was, or how it came to be. All blame for the cancer aside, the one thing we all need to agree upon is that the cancer must die or we will. If we can agree on this, we stand a great chance of beating this cancer. This message has been edited by TinderArts on 10-10-2001 at 05:28 PM

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b]A few relevant articles: [url=http://www.zmag.org/chatwithchom.htm]Chat with Noam Chomsky[/url] http://www.judicialwatch.org/press_release.asp?pr_id=1624 http://emperors-clothes.com/news/bushladen.htm [/b][/quote] Thanks for the links, Steve!! Looks like there's going to be some interesting debate over some of these issues.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I'm surprised though, the BCCI scandal hasn't been given more attention.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Peace, Harold

[aeon]

[quote]Originally posted by Danny M: [b]When it comes down to killing innocent civilians en masse on purpose, and then complaining that the US won't handle things diplomatically, then I say we can do anything the hell we please and be justified.[/b][/quote] Justified by what standard? Certainly not a moral, ethical, or lawful one. What do you call for? To lower our standard of behaviour to that of the terrorists thereby throwing away any claim to the virtues of good, peace or justice? Doing anything one pleases without responsibility or justification is the [i]modus operandi[/i] of both toddlers and sociopaths...not a nation who aspires to a higher standard of behaviour. [quote]Originally posted by Stratman: [b]You have to think of this threat as a cancer. When you discover cancer you have to [/b][b][i]kill it![/i][/b][b] You don't talk to it. You don't sit back and hope it goes away. You don't make friends with it. You simply try to kill it without killing the patient.[/b][/quote] This is exactly how those who commit acts of terror against the US and the nations it supports think. Do you not see the circular logic here? peace, aeon

[aeon]

Once a protester has answered the question of “why do you protest?,” I think we must also ask of them “what better solution would you offer?” I say this because criticizing acts of violence is a simple thing to do - no one, except the crazy or evil, chooses such a thing with ease. Constructive criticism is the only criticism that is of any weight, for it offers something for the greater good, and is not a simple emotional response to the madness of the moment. So too should our call to arms not be an emotional response, for passion is never a solid foundation on which the moral good can rest. We must act from reason, with a cool but resolute conviction that although what we choose is not comfortable, it is chosen in the clear awareness and knowledge that it serves the greater good. Consider this...if you were sitting at home with your mate and a person entered without permission and announced they were going to kill your mate and quickly made motion to do so, a very certain moral dilemma would present itself. Do you act and commit murder against the perp, or do you not act, and commit murder against your mate? The burden of moral conscience concerns itself not only with action, but also with inaction. Knowing this, we have chosen to act. We hope that this choice will serve the greater good in the future - and over 6000 people from over 80 nations is certainly a perfect picture of the greater good. We should not revel in bloodlust or celebrate the death of any evildoer, for abhorrent as their acts are, they are human beings and our brothers and sisters on earth. But make no mistake, neither should we stand idly by while our brothers and sisters who have done no wrong are felled like so much wheat. So let the job be done, done fully, and reach an end goal that is reasonable and as just as can be possibly achieved. Let us also ask the hard questions as to how we have come to a place where a feeling of such hatred should exist among the men and women of this earth. We owe that to humanity and all humanity’s children.

[stratman_dup1]

I fully agree with 99% of that post Aeon, very eloquently put. The one execption I have to make is this. The evil doers are NOT my brothers and sisters and the fact that they are human beings is very seriously up for debate. Well, not really.

[fuzz]

[b]Everything changed September 11th, my friend....for the first time in this countries history we were seriously attacked on our mainland...of the 6,000 or so butchered, double or triple that number for sons, daughters, wifes, husbands, etc., who live's are forever altered....[/b] um....what about the people that lived here before all the others "moved in"? ya know the "red skinned ones" less than 150 years ago we where killing 'em off as fast as we could and today the ones who are left live in rural ghettos pushing oil, smokes and bingo! ALL THIS SHIT IS WAY WRONG....if the masses of the world don't realize that and make a stand for peace then i fear we are all doomed.

[lrossmusic]

[quote] Spacebass wrote: [b]ALL THIS SHIT IS WAY WRONG....if the masses of the world don't realize that and make a stand for peace then i fear we are all doomed.[/b][/quote] Actually I do sense that the collective will of the masses will eventually squash all this bullshit but probably not in our lifetime. Looking at the pace of change in last 150 years though we seem to be picking up a little more momentum. Who knows maybe our great great grandchildren might begin to reach the shores of the promised land.

[Tedster]

Masses? You mean like those masses I saw on CNN last night burning US flags and chanting "Death to America"? Those masses? Gee, it just might work. How 'bout we send you over there, and you can go up to them and say "Hey, I'm American. I want to be your friend!". Remember that movie "War of the Worlds"? The three guys make a white flag and walk up to the aliens trying to be friends and get roasted by a death ray. Then the Priest takes his Bible and walks out to talk to them and he gets roasted with a death ray too... "Hey, let's play nice here folks"...ZZZZZZAAAAPPP....poof... This message has been edited by Tedster on 10-11-2001 at 02:15 PM

[fuzz]

no tedster i meant people just like YOU!

[captain54]

[quote]Originally posted by spacebass: [b][b]um....what about the people that lived here before all the others "moved in"? ya know the "red skinned ones" less than 150 years ago we where killing 'em off as fast as we could and today the ones who are left live in rural ghettos pushing oil, smokes and bingo! ALL THIS SHIT IS WAY WRONG....if the masses of the world don't realize that and make a stand for peace then i fear we are all doomed. [/b][/quote] Um...all those "red skinned ones" that were here 150, 200, 300, 400 years ago fought each other for supremacy until the strongest one reigned...they were killing each other off and wearing each other's skins and scalps as fashion accessories long before "evil white massah" made his appearance... And last I checked, quite a few of those "red skinned ones" drive Lexus's, Jag's and Mercedes from the profits they've pocketed from any number of casinos across the nation... If the Taliban handed over "Mountain Boy" for trial in the U.S., there would be no aircraft dropping "bunker busters" anywhere....The U.S. attempted a peaceful solution and it was rejected...

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]Um...all those "red skinned ones" that were here 150, 200, 300, 400 years ago fought each other for supremacy until the strongest one reigned...they were killing each other off and wearing each other's skins and scalps as fashion accessories long before "evil white massah" made his appearance... And last I checked, quite a few of those "red skinned ones" drive Lexus's, Jag's and Mercedes from the profits they've pocketed from any number of casinos across the nation...[/quote] Wow, I didn't think it possible to find such ignorance on a musician's bb. The stupidity is really unbelievable. This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 10-11-2001 at 03:25 PM

[meccajay]

<> Last time I checked those were tribal war's over FOOD & LAND, much like any of our ancester's were involved in for survival, NOT mass murder!! Chances are if you are in America and you look down at you chair and the floor it's sitting on..... Yeah that spot!! That's the same spot where a Tee-Pee once stood and an Indian family once lived....seen any lately?? About those "red Skinned one's" who drive Lexus's, Jag's and Mercedes. . . You mean all 37 of them?? Thanx for playing.

[BP3]

[quote]Originally posted by aeon@mediaone.net: [b] This is exactly how those who commit acts of terror against the US and the nations it supports think. Do you not see the circular logic here? peace, aeon[/b][/quote] First, you posted my quote as Stratman's. This is not how the terrorists think. They aim for innocent civilians. We don't. Get a grip on reality. The world that we live in is a dangerous place at times. This is one of those times. I'm all for peace, but we face a foe who cannot accept peace. It's not in their intrests to do so. So where does that leave us? Either we let them come to our country and kill us over and over (not a very peacful state of affairs), or we do our best to take away their capability to kill us. I'm all for the latter!

[aeon]

TinderArts: Please accept my apology for incorrectly attributing your quote. Stratman: Please accept my apology for attributing something to you that you did not say. I shall take greater care in the future. humbly, aeon This message has been edited by aeon@mediaone.net on 10-11-2001 at 05:26 PM

[captain54]

[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b] Wow, I didn't think it possible to find such ignorance on a musician's bb. The stupidity is really unbelievable. [/b][/quote] In the future, before you take a shot at anyone on these boards, OPEN YOUR EYES to reality, my friend, instead of choosing to view the world and the human condition through whatever rose colored/Sesame Street glasses your have in your possession...

[Danny M]

[quote]Justified by what standard? Certainly not a moral, ethical, or lawful one. What do you call for? To lower our standard of behaviour to that of the terrorists thereby throwing away any claim to the virtues of good, peace or justice? Doing anything one pleases without responsibility or justification is the modus operandi of both toddlers and sociopaths...not a nation who aspires to a higher standard of behaviour.[/quote] I edited my post for clarity, but I apparently didn't edit it enough, so here we go: The standard is simple. They deliberately targeted and killed several thousand innocent civilians. Once you do that, as a surprise attack with no shooting war happening, then I have no hesitation whatsoever in using military force against whatever targets we see fit. Like I said in my post, I'm glad that we're dropping food and trying to take the high road. What really ticks me off is the constant moaning and groaning I hear about peace, love, flower power, and talking things out. I can't remember which Marine said it in "Aliens," but, "What are we supposed to use, harsh language?" Talking things out is for diplomats, and the diplomats have left the building. There's a point where foreign policy has to become "because I have a shotgun, and you haven't got one" and we got taken past that point by a bunch of bloodthirsty fanatics in some stolen aircraft. We can talk about it or do something about it. It's time to bloody well do something about it. Lowering our standard of behavior isn't in the equation, but doing what we have to do to get these buttheads out is. I've got nothing wrong with peaceful solutions, but it takes both sides wanting to play ball. They didn't want to play, so now it's time to open up a fresh, aromatic, juicy, high-explosive can. -Danny ------------------ Less is not more. More is more.

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]In the future, before you take a shot at anyone on these boards, OPEN YOUR EYES to reality, my friend, instead of choosing to view the world and the human condition through whatever rose colored/Sesame Street glasses your have in your possession...[/quote] Somehow I expected an answer like this. Whatever man...keep fighting for your right to be stupid.

[lrossmusic]

strat0124's post warrants repeating right along in here [b] [quote]Posted by strat0124 posted 10-10-2001 05:11 PM Well we've picked and switched sides so much in that area its damn hard to keep track of. All I know is the madmen that committed that act and the support system should be found and eliminated. Having said that, we need to back up and regroup and realize the consequences of our actions. We could bankrupt the middle east in ten years if we swapped to alternate energy sources that ARE AVAILABLE now. Then they could throw camel dung at us from afar..... I doubt we'd be less enthusiastic about our expansionism and world police ventures if foreign navies and armies surrounded us in peacetime, devalued our belief system and changed alliances at will depending on the flow of oil....and who controlled it. Still no excuse for terrorism. But to me all we are accomplishing with bombing another country is strengthing that countries resolve.....it would and DID to me on Sept 11th. We have to acknowledge the ROOT cause of all this, and rectify it. As a veteran, and proud American, I stand by our country and our people to the death.....but we do have to come to terms with why this happened, until then there will hundreds, maybe thousands of Bin Ladens with plenty of folks willing to bankroll them. I want to get some payback like any other American, but not at any cost. I don't consider someone excerising free speech anti-American, and I will defend their right to do so. Some folks forget tolerance is what America is all about. To hate war is not a bad thing.....those of us who have seen it know that. Colin Powell is a smart MOFO....he recognized that the Palestinian question is essential to solving this conflict, but the hawks debunked him. Peace isn't a given.....its something earned and defended, we just need to do both....not just defend it. PEACE TO YOU ALL.[/b][/quote]

[LeiDeLi]

Luckily, over 90% of Americans, and the vast majority of the civilized world have adpted the rational view that, although distasteful, extreme measures must be taken in order to insure that there will be a future at all. On a BBS, a very small minority of nuts can post enough half-baked arguments to make it seem as though things like this are just a matter of opinion. No real need to argue. We can see right through it. Peace, Rick

[captain54]

[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b] Somehow I expected an answer like this. Whatever man...keep fighting for your right to be stupid. [/b][/quote] Wow, thanks man....and keep fighting for your right to take cheap shots at whatever viewpoint doesn't agree with your own....hopefully all the history experts out there can educate one stupid moron like myself one day, and thank God, the world may once again be a better place to live... This message has been edited by captain54 on 10-11-2001 at 07:01 PM

[Steve LeBlanc]

OK, my last post regarding this... I didn't see my earlier reply as a cheap shot, more like a very reserved way of showing how pissed I was at your racist and highly uninformed statements regarding the history of Native Americans in this country. Maybe I should be less reserved next time and just say Fuck You...maybe not. P.S. Why am I arguing with an anonymous poster anyway? This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 10-11-2001 at 07:09 PM

[fuzz]

:::::side note::::: notice i did not say that we shouldn't do anything....i believe these people that attacked the usa are a small faction of weirdos' that want us to go to war...well they got there wish. defending ones self of course is the only action one must take....BUT i still think violence of any kind is wrong! sometimes we are left with no other choice and that is what bums me out. i believe most people in the world "the masses" don't just go around kicking peoples ass for no reason do they...well then i think they to would most likely agree that violence is wrong! we as people have to learn how to all get along, respect our differences, hold leaders accountable for there actions and hopefully by the time my son is an adult he won't have to deal with these kind of people. please feel free to tell me that i know nothing and have half baked ideas....cuz that attitude is fastest way to achieve peace [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

[captain54]

[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b]OK, my last post regarding this... P.S. Why am I arguing with an anonymous poster anyway? [/b][/quote] I don't know why Steve, but you ripped me without really offering any viewpoint of your own.. If my viewpoint came off as racist concerning the American Indian, and if I offended, please accept my apology....that was not my intention.... I was attempting to offer another side of the story, according to my life experiences and the way I see things....I might be wrong, I might be right..in the end, who cares.... Again, I'm sorry if I offended you.....

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by spacebass: [b]no tedster i meant people just like YOU![/b][/quote] Okay...I read your clarifying post. It seems as though you say you hate violence, but accede to the fact that sometimes there is no other way, and the fact bums you out. I can see no argument there. I hate violence too...and it bums me out that there is no other way, too. I think everyone here could actually agree to that. We're not warmongers...only fools are warmongers...we know that blowing people up is not a football game. Death is real. But, we are going to do what we have to do because it's our families whose lives are on the line, and, unfortunately, very unfortunately, we have no alternative. This message has been edited by Tedster on 10-11-2001 at 08:17 PM

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]I don't know why Steve, but you ripped me without really offering any viewpoint of your own.. If my viewpoint came off as racist concerning the American Indian, and if I offended, please accept my apology....that was not my intention....[/quote] We're all generally pissed for good reason, I'm sorry I let my emotions get out of hand...apology accepted...please accept mine. This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 10-11-2001 at 08:14 PM