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George "War Pig" Bush


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[quote]Originally posted by mcdonough@musicplayer.com: [b]If Mandella wants to combat some evil, he should move back in with his ex-wife and turn her around. In a few months when the US has liberated Iraq and 80% of the people there are finally dancing in the streets, what will he, and all the "war pig" distractors, say then? They probably didn't want us involved in Kuwait but now the people of that country have been free for 10 years. Will you then just move on to the next perceived evil of the US and not mention how we helped the poeple of Iraq?[/b][/quote]The people of Kuwait are no better off than they were 10 years ago either. It's still run for the few elite at the top, women didn't get their individual rights and foreign workers are the wetbacks. It was a battle for the status quo to keep the big oily valve open. Same as Saudi Arabia. Do a little investigation into what it's like to be a foreigner, even an Arab, in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait. And don't embrace the notion that Iraq is going to be somehow liberated in a few months and the troops come home by Independence Day. Taking care of the Kurdish question, the Shiite minority, disenchanted youth joining extremist Islamic groups, routing out seven layers of secret police entangled in every apsect of daily life, and keeping Iraq's oil fields from poaching is a decades long commitment. Except I think the Kurds will be left twisiting again to placate Turkey for the concessions they have made to the White House.
It's OK to tempt fate. Just don't drop your drawers and moon her.
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[quote]Originally posted by Sal ©: [b] [quote]Failing to distinguish between the nation and a specific administration is extremely myopic and dangerous thinking. [/quote]You are blurring the line between the United States and its people and the current Bush Administration. I can assure you they are VASTLY different entities.[/b][/quote]Fair enough. I personally thought it was Mandela blurring the line, but whatever. I don't particularly need to be reminded that I am not George W. Bush. I'm relatively clear on that point. I didn't vote for the man, and while I don't hold him in quite the contempt that many do, he's not my favorite person. There's a lot of posts here condemning the US's behavior vis a vis South Africa. And yeah, we sucked, no doubt. But then you know what? We saw the error of our ways, and changed our attitude. And despite Reagan's veto and foot-dragging, we passed sanctions with a 2/3 majority in Congress, and staged effective boycotts against companies doing business in South Africa, and just generally made it difficult for the Apartheid government to function. I think that's an example of the "good side" of the US showing. Can you find examples of our "bad side"? You bet. Lots and lots of examples. I'd write you a list, but I'm sure you can write your own. I don't need Mandela explaining it to me though. What, his country is so perfect now, that he needs to solve our problems? Sheesh. And just to be clear -- I am NOT one of those who thinks we should blindly go to war in Iraq, for kicks and giggles. I have grave reservations about all this. Especially about what we plan to do once Saddam is removed, I don't think it's all that well thought out. But let's face it -- if we do go to war in Iraq, a bunch of American boys are going to die. Billions of dollars of American tax money will be spent. Millions of dollars worth of American equipment will be destroyed. And what, exactly, will South Africa be contributing to any of this? And just how likely is it that Iraq will give a nuke to a terrorist who plans to blow up.....Johannesburg? --Dave

Make my funk the P-funk.

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My Funk/Jam originals project: http://www.thefunkery.com/

 

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[quote]Originally posted by Dave Pierce: [b] There's a lot of posts here condemning the US's behavior vis a vis South Africa. And yeah, we sucked, no doubt. But then you know what? We saw the error of our ways, and changed our attitude. And despite Reagan's veto and foot-dragging, we passed sanctions with a 2/3 majority in Congress, and staged effective boycotts against companies doing business in South Africa, and just generally made it difficult for the Apartheid government to function. [/b][/quote]The problem is that the people who were calling the shots in the Reagan Administration are pretty much the same ones in charge now. And if the Apartheid situation was a current one, I suspect the current Congress would not be able to override a presidential veto, let alone even come close to passing the legislation to begin with. I honestly feel that US citizen's interests have far less impact on the operations of our government than in the 1980's even. And I really think that is a shame and a dangerous portent for the future. It's obvious that the current US Govt serves the interests of big business first and foremost. Every decision and piece of legislation underlines this. People who claim that the current US Govt is serving the interests of it's citizenry have to fall back on the argument of 'trickle down economics' and "what is good for big business is good for all of us". I would have hoped that the recent Enron, Worldcom, etc. fiascos would have proved otherwise, but people don't seen to get it. Then again, our society didn't seem to learn from the Savings & Loan debacle either. [quote]Originally posted by Dave Pierce: [b] I don't need Mandela explaining it to me though. What, his country is so perfect now, that he needs to solve our problems? Sheesh. [/b][/quote]I think the problem is that you (and others) are taking his comments persanally as a condemnation of people of this country, when I feel that what he is really doing is saying what needs to be said about the current administation, which most others seem to be afraid to do. I see his voice of dissent as being in our best interest, personally, though I fear it won't accomplish much, not the least of which is because people are so dizzy from the constant media spin that they don't seem to be able to see these things objectively. [quote]Originally posted by Dave Pierce: [b] And just to be clear -- I am NOT one of those who thinks we should blindly go to war in Iraq, for kicks and giggles. I have grave reservations about all this. Especially about what we plan to do once Saddam is removed, I don't think it's all that well thought out. But let's face it -- if we do go to war in Iraq, a bunch of American boys are going to die. Billions of dollars of American tax money will be spent. Millions of dollars worth of American equipment will be destroyed.[/b][/quote]Well it seems we agree about this part. [quote]Originally posted by Dave Pierce: [b] And what, exactly, will South Africa be contributing to any of this? And just how likely is it that Iraq will give a nuke to a terrorist who plans to blow up.....Johannesburg? --Dave[/b][/quote]Probably the same chance that Iraq will give a nuke to a terrorist to blow up anywhere in the US, since they don't have any, as far as we know. And Mandela is no longer president of South Africa anyway, so I don't think he can do much other than speak his mind. BTW Dave, I hope you don't think I'm directing all this at you personally, I totally respect your opinions and I appreciate that we can carry on an intelligent conversation here without devolving to the personal attacks that have happened so many times with others. Cheers :thu:
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What about North Korea? People argue that the only reason that Bush is going to invade Iraq and not North Korea is because North Korea actually does have weapons of mass destruction and no oil reserves, unlike Iraq. But of course Powell has reassurred us all that the states are capable of fighting and winning two wars at once if necessary. What a comforting thought. Kwiks
"It's better to regret something you did than something you didn't do." - Butthole Surfers
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Look, folks, if you want to demonstrate for certain that Hussein has some nasty mollyfloggin' toys, it's dead easy. Just send a few cruise missiles into Baghdad. The idea of invading, and using hundreds of tons of exploding metal, to [b]prevent your adversary from using his weapons[/b] seem a little odd to anyone except Jerry Springer? I'm all for doing what's gotta be done. But let's take a step back at what is actually being said, how it's being presented, and who is going along with it. So now we have France and Germany "isolated" by 8 other members of the European community? That's a coalition? What's the percentage of Europeans who live in those two "Old World" countries? It's a fucking joke, really. If they would only get serious and stop playing games with the media. And if people would only pay attention to what is being said for more than 12 seconds. You'd all see just how absurd this whole "coalition" thing is. The vast majority of Western European citizens are 100% opposed to non-UN sponsored action in Iraq. If you wait a week or two after the SOTU popularity bump, you'll see a solid majority in the US are of the same opinion. WTF is going on here? JW
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[quote] One word to explain the US stance on N. Korea presently: China [/quote]. . [quote] Care to explain? [/quote]China is an enormous power, and now it is also intrinsically linked with the interests of US corporations. Attacking N Korea would NOT be OK with China. Though I think the US would like to get a foothold in the Middle East in order to have a stronger presence further east not to mention selling oil to China, India, etc. That's also what the pipeline in Afghanistan is about coincidentally enough. Sorry I have a bit of a cough right now...
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Bush and company are apparently considering the option of Hussein going into exhile, probably in Saudi Arabia (they believe "God" will take care of evil doers.) Saudi Arabia doesn't want a war in their neighborhood. Bush is quoted as saying that war is the last option.
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[quote]Originally posted by John Whynot: [b] What's the percentage of Europeans who live in those two "Old World" countries? [/b][/quote]They are the heavyweights of the EU, also by far they make up the largest financial power in Europe. France and Germany have the largest populations among European countries. Besides, there are more European countries that did not sign the letter. ( 8 out of 30+ countries signed it. 3 out of those 8 has just joined NATO). Many leaders that did not sign the letter call it "a shame" "disgraceful" "unfortunate". [b]The vast majority of Western European citizens are 100% opposed to non-UN sponsored action in Iraq.[/b] How did you come to this (highly debateable) conclusion? Pretty bold statement, I live here and I can tell you that I believe that you are dead wrong. If you were right, things would already look different. /Mats

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[quote]Originally posted by Sal ©: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Dave Pierce: [b]I don't need Mandela explaining it to me though. What, his country is so perfect now, that he needs to solve our problems? Sheesh. [/b][/quote]I think the problem is that you (and others) are taking his comments persanally as a condemnation of people of this country, when I feel that what he is really doing is saying what needs to be said about the current administation, which most others seem to be afraid to do. I see his voice of dissent as being in our best interest, personally, though I fear it won't accomplish much, not the least of which is because people are so dizzy from the constant media spin that they don't seem to be able to see these things objectively. [/b][/quote]Well, yeah, I pretty much did take it personally. And I'm not likely to fully embrace your perspective on this -- IMO the rest of the world spends way too much time worrying about what it is we do and how we do it. For the last century, Americans have been called upon to spill blood and dollars to clean up every freaking problem that crops up on this planet. And for the most part, we've answered the call. Risks to our country and citizens are risks that [b]we[/b] have to deal with. I don't really give a rat's ass what Germany, France, South Africa, or anybody else thinks about the solutions we arrive at. That doesn't mean, however, that I fully or even partially agree with the Bush administration's conclusions. And it's really not that hard to find critics of the current administration's policies. Unless the only source of information you're willing to use is TV news or some such drivel. [quote][b] [quote]Originally posted by Dave Pierce: [b] And what, exactly, will South Africa be contributing to any of this? And just how likely is it that Iraq will give a nuke to a terrorist who plans to blow up.....Johannesburg? --Dave[/b][/quote]Probably the same chance that Iraq will give a nuke to a terrorist to blow up anywhere in the US, since they don't have any, as far as we know. And Mandela is no longer president of South Africa anyway, so I don't think he can do much other than speak his mind.[/b][/quote]They don't have any? Sure about that? How about next year, or 2005? I don't have anywhere near the level of confidence in Iraq's harmlessness that you do. I'm not sure I know the best way to mitigate the risk posed by Iraq, but that doesn't mean I want to dismiss it. I believe it was Baldwin who taught us the folly of that approach. [quote][b]BTW Dave, I hope you don't think I'm directing all this at you personally, I totally respect your opinions and I appreciate that we can carry on an intelligent conversation here without devolving to the personal attacks that have happened so many times with others. Cheers :thu: [/b][/quote]Oh, yeah, I don't really do the slashdot flamewar thing. Got over that way back in usenet days. Just opinions here, nothing more. :D --Dave

Make my funk the P-funk.

I wants to get funked up.

 

My Funk/Jam originals project: http://www.thefunkery.com/

 

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[quote]Originally posted by Kwiks: [b]What about North Korea? People argue that the only reason that Bush is going to invade Iraq and not North Korea is because North Korea actually does have weapons of mass destruction and no oil reserves, unlike Iraq. But of course Powell has reassurred us all that the states are capable of fighting and winning two wars at once if necessary. What a comforting thought. Kwiks[/b][/quote]Then I wonder why we couldnt win the first Korean War (or should I say Chinese War)?
S.K. Evans | Animus Mundi | Nuendo 3.01, 3 WinXP SP1 machines (p4 3.0, 2.4 Celeron, 2.4 Celeron), Fxteleport, RME Multiface, 2 UAD cards
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Alot of what Bush is saying about "going it alone" and "leaving all options open" is scare tactics. We are basically saying to Saddam: We're gonna get you. You have weapons, and we're gonna get you. You don't coopereate, and we're gonna get you. You use those weapons, and we're REALLY gonna get you. The idea is to scare Saddam right out of Iraq. The way to do it is to let him know that whatever he does, we're going to lay it on him harder than he can imagine. All this talk is not what Bush wants to do or is going to do, it is what we want Saddam to think we will do. Same as why the Cold War stayed cold. I think China wants nothing to do with the whole situation. I dought that they want criticism from the rest of the world for supporting NK. With as powerful as their economic position is about to be, they don't want to cause trouble with nations (UN) that can cut them off from the rest of the world. They need our/Europes economies at east as much as we need theirs.
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[quote]Originally posted by mark_dog: [b]what do you think? Is Bush a War Pig?[/b][/quote]Gosh I wonder what the answer will be to this question??? :rolleyes: [i]While I respect and encourage free thought and opinions being heard, isn't THIS SUBJECT GETTING A LITTLE REDUNDANT? It's well known by now that the vast majority of people here have a burning hatred of Bush and all things Republican. Why tie up yet another thread with MORE OF THE SAME?[/i] In MY opinion: No, I don't think Bush is a 'War Pig'. *I think Saddam is dangerous and cruel both as a dictator and as a world power. *I think he needs to be removed from power. *I don't think this is about OIL as much as it is about eliminating his threat to our shores. Don't think he's a threat? You won't know till it's too late -consider Al quiada. It's pre-emptive. That's the way the game is played now. *For as MUCH as it is about OIL; better it be under the control of those those who won't be using it to fund terrorist activities. *Bush MUST have valid reasons for pursuing this course of action. It CERTAINLY isn't helping our ecconomy, or winning any landslide support from the voters. Why else do it? Special insterest? I don't buy it. Nobody impales themself on a cause just to scratch a few backs. I think he's doing this because he understands the situation and feels the need to take the appropriate action, even if it *IS* an unpopular move -and IT TAKES BALLS TO DO THAT... Think what you want. I behind him on this...

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BNC wrote: [quote]The idea is to scare Saddam right out of Iraq. The way to do it is to let him know that whatever he does, we're going to lay it on him harder than he can imagine. All this talk is not what Bush wants to do or is going to do, it is what we want Saddam to think we will do. Same as why the Cold War stayed cold.[/quote]WOW! I feel so much better now that you have expained this to me. I was frankly getting a little bit worried about he whole war thing. Do me a favor, send this e-mail to all of the other global leaders and explain to them that you have the inside scoop on the inner workings of the oval office, and the military strategists. I am sure that they will be just as relieved as I am right now. Thanks again. :rolleyes:

Jotown:)

 

"It's all good: Except when it's Great"

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Well I just returned from my Republican brain washing session so I feel much better now. I read all the posts. I listened to Mr. Mandella. I watched the Susan Sarandon anti war video. I have learned a lot. There are a lot of people who hate America and Mr. Bush and are willing to side with any and all who want us dead. CBS news yesterday reported that our Patriot missle system isn't capable of hitting a SCUD missle filled with VX gas if Sadam decides to launch against our troups in Kuwait. They said we needed to hope for a "golden BB". Thankfully, Sadam wasn't listening to this and planning on killing our kids now that CBS gave him hope of success. To Susan, Nelson, Sean Penn, Richard Gere, and all of you other anti Americans: You are right, we should leave Sadam alone since he has not done anything to America. And I appreciate the same level of outrage when we attacked Milosovic, who also never did anything to America (without UN mandate, senate vote, etc.), and when we attacked Haiti, Sudan, Idi Amin, Afghanastan (the very successful cruise missle attack on the aspirin factory) etc. And dear Mr. Mandella. Bad or good, America spends BILLIONS on foreign aid. South Africa most certainly has a great record of doing good works for the rest of the world...thanks for the Aids epidemic Nels.. It has killed more people in your own country than any single act by any other country in history. I suggest you spend some time trying to help your own people instead of Sadam who I don't think gives much of a damn about your dying country. Or better yet, get Sadam to pledge a couple billion dollars to save your country from it's self inflicted (and controllable!) plague. After all, you obviously support Sadam and think Mr. Bush is the evil one. Good luck in your quest Nels. The unbelievable hypocracy in the anti American rhetoric is staggering. No indication of any of this vitriol during the Clinton military deployments. No Sarandon video, no Nelson Mandella..nothing. No concern for our troops, total support for Sadam, for the terrorists, for anybody that hates us. Hard to imagine my fellow musicians waving WELCOME signs to the terrorists in the airplanes on that cold day in September, but that's what you are doing. Give them hope. Give them more reasons to hate us. Make them feel welcome. Show them how much you support them over your own country. How sad. And when they do attack..give Nelson a call to defend your family, your city, your state and your country.

Mark G.

"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs

 

"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson

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[quote]Originally posted by GZsound@hotmail.com: [b]Well I just returned from my Republican brain washing session so I feel much better now. I read all the posts. I listened to Mr. Mandella. I watched the Susan Sarandon anti war video. I have learned a lot. There are a lot of people who hate America and Mr. Bush and are willing to side with any and all who want us dead. To Susan, Nelson, Sean Penn, Richard Gere, and all of you other anti Americans: You are right, we should leave Sadam alone since he has not done anything to America. [/b][/quote]GZ. Being anti-war is not being anti-American. Being Anti-Bush is not being anti-American. I am not neccesarily defending, or agreeing with Susan, Nelson, Sean Penn, Richard Gere, but I do defend their right to express their Anti-war feelings. To not defend that right would be Anti-American. Many, many people in this country are against the war. Many, many people, in fact the majority of American's, did not even vote for Bush. Not wanting to go to war is not Anti-Amercian. I do not understand why you keep trying to make this ridiculous assertion that disagreeing with Bush means that you don't love this country. "The Devil is any God who begins to exact obedience." John Cooper Powy

Jotown:)

 

"It's all good: Except when it's Great"

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[quote]Originally posted by GZsound@hotmail.com: [b]Hard to imagine my fellow musicians waving WELCOME signs to the terrorists in the airplanes on that cold day in September, but that's what you are doing. Give them hope. Give them more reasons to hate us. Make them feel welcome. Show them how much you support them over your own country. [/b][/quote]Dude, I agree with a lot of what you were saying in your post. But don't you think this is a little harsh? Some of our friends on the forum may spend a little too much time listening to bs leftish rhetoric, but I'm pretty sure they all felt the same outrage I did on 9/11. Let's not get carried away here -- we're just a bunch of wankers talking, none of us are setting policy in Washington. :D --Dave

Make my funk the P-funk.

I wants to get funked up.

 

My Funk/Jam originals project: http://www.thefunkery.com/

 

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[quote]Originally posted by GZsound@hotmail.com: [b]Well I just returned from my Republican brain washing session so I feel much better now. I read all the posts. I listened to Mr. Mandella. I watched the Susan Sarandon anti war video. I have learned a lot. There are a lot of people who hate America and Mr. Bush and are willing to side with any and all who want us dead. CBS news yesterday reported that our Patriot missle system isn't capable of hitting a SCUD missle filled with VX gas if Sadam decides to launch against our troups in Kuwait. They said we needed to hope for a "golden BB". Thankfully, Sadam wasn't listening to this and planning on killing our kids now that CBS gave him hope of success. To Susan, Nelson, Sean Penn, Richard Gere, and all of you other anti Americans: You are right, we should leave Sadam alone since he has not done anything to America. And I appreciate the same level of outrage when we attacked Milosovic, who also never did anything to America (without UN mandate, senate vote, etc.), and when we attacked Haiti, Sudan, Idi Amin, Afghanastan (the very successful cruise missle attack on the aspirin factory) etc. And dear Mr. Mandella. Bad or good, America spends BILLIONS on foreign aid. South Africa most certainly has a great record of doing good works for the rest of the world...thanks for the Aids epidemic Nels.. It has killed more people in your own country than any single act by any other country in history. I suggest you spend some time trying to help your own people instead of Sadam who I don't think gives much of a damn about your dying country. Or better yet, get Sadam to pledge a couple billion dollars to save your country from it's self inflicted (and controllable!) plague. After all, you obviously support Sadam and think Mr. Bush is the evil one. Good luck in your quest Nels. The unbelievable hypocracy in the anti American rhetoric is staggering. No indication of any of this vitriol during the Clinton military deployments. No Sarandon video, no Nelson Mandella..nothing. No concern for our troops, total support for Sadam, for the terrorists, for anybody that hates us. Hard to imagine my fellow musicians waving WELCOME signs to the terrorists in the airplanes on that cold day in September, but that's what you are doing. Give them hope. Give them more reasons to hate us. Make them feel welcome. Show them how much you support them over your own country. How sad. And when they do attack..give Nelson a call to defend your family, your city, your state and your country.[/b][/quote]Get a Grip Rumsfeld...Your Hardline Far Right oversimplified view of Geopolitics is far out of step with the majority of American's views. Because we have the balls to stand up and oppose policies by our government that are Blatently wrong, we are labeled Anti-American? You are out of your fucking mind, and If I were within driving distance of you, I would come there and shove my U.S. Ranger Black Beret up your ass for insinuating it. You are probably the typical Chicken-hawk Tough talking, Never haved served right winger like Cheney, Rummy, and most of the Bush cabinent....It sickens me to hear The Rhetoric of your kind..It is PATRIOTIC, NOT Anti-American to have the balls to speak out agains things that are morally wrong...We LOVE this country, Care about our world standing, And Do not believe this path BUSH has set the country on is the right one...They have ZERO policy ont the economy, want to cut medicade, workers rights, done very little to secure our borders against a terrorist threat, etc etc...I could go on and on but i know it would be falling on deaf ears....Point of fact is your view is Askew compared to most well read, well informed PATRIOTIC Americans...And I'm sure you will disagree..Just because we loath Bush's policies doesn't mean we loath the United States...I'm incensed just thinking about your statement thinking about my own service and the lives that people i knew Gave...My suggesting would be turn off CNN, MSNBC, FOXNEWS, etc etc and start looking at foreign news instead..Get yourself a broder view....

Sean Michael Mormelo

www.seanmmormelo.com

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[quote]from Sean: [b]My suggesting would be turn off CNN, MSNBC, FOXNEWS, etc etc and start looking at foreign news instead..Get yourself a broder view.... [/b][/quote]Amen to that. Hat's off to anyone in the U.S. that has clue because you have made the effort. You're living in a news deprivation chamber. Major networks air headlines, speculation (what-if fear mongering) and armchair analysts. Not the same as reporting. Rumsfeld is confident he has the resources for conflict on two fronts, but does Fox? :)
It's OK to tempt fate. Just don't drop your drawers and moon her.
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[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: I don't think this is about OIL as much as it is about eliminating his threat to our shores. Don't think he's a threat? You won't know till it's too late -consider Al quiada. It's pre-emptive. That's the way the game is played now.[/quote]That's pretty fucked up. Al Qaeda was 'pre-emptive'? In other words the US has NEVER done ANYTHING mean to Arabs/Muslims/etc, we were just sitting there for years and years and then suddenly Al Qaeda smacked us for no reason at all? Is that what you're saying? Do you know how long these people have had a grievance with Israel (to pick the most obvious cause) and have been watching the US back, fund, and arm Israel and sell them the bombs and weapons Israel uses to kill Arabs, just about every day? Do you know how many years this has been going on? They've been attacking Israel for about as long, of course, but it hasn't changed anything: eventually someone decided to bring that war home to US on American soil. "War pigs" or no, military force in this situation produces other military force- when that's not possible, it produces desperate attacks from terrorists. Some of you people have a lot of nerve insisting that 'arab terrorists hate the US for no reason', how many members of your families are dead from Arab bombs? One plane crash and you're apeshit with vengeance. Imagine how some Arabs must feel after decades of US-funded death and destruction. No reason, my left nut. Killing a bunch of them directly will, amazingly, not f**king help. How difficult is this to understand? Hell, our own military leaders have tried to explain this and failed. If you don't believe retired Joint Chiefs of Staff, the CIA, etc etc, what's the matter with you? That's their job, to assess threats. These guys have said don't stir up the anthill, okay? Don't get in a freaking boxing match with a beehive. I hope we have military leaders who have enough sense of self-preservation to carry off a REAL 'coup' if it is truly necessary, not just a contested election. I'm a commie-liberal-socialist-anarchist-pinko and I can honestly say that by now I trust our military leaders way more than our civilian leaders, which is pretty f**ked up if you ask me. But the soldiers are the ones making more sensible threat evaluations and their position is more supportive of a coherent foreign policy...
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----SNIP--- You are out of your fucking mind, and If I were within driving distance of you, I would come there and shove my U.S. Ranger Black Beret up your ass for insinuating it. You are probably the typical Chicken-hawk Tough talking, Never haved served right winger like Cheney, Rummy, and most of the Bush cabinent....It sickens me to hear The Rhetoric of your kind..---SNIP--- Nice rant. As a decorated Vietnam war veteran I chuckle at your over-reaction. Funny how you side with the anti American, anti violence protestors and yet find it so easy to threaten me with violence. Typical. I am not your enemy. Get it? America is not your enemy. Get it? Try to get angry at those who would kill you where you stand and not those of us who have fought and died to protect your right to complain. I appreciate your service to our country. Thank you. Sorry you hate those of us that still defend it. I hear Sadam is looking for "a few good men". Go sign up. If I'm not incorrect, the Republican Guard wear black berrets too.

Mark G.

"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs

 

"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Gzsound, it is slightly amusing but more than that damn sad to see how once you enter the thread the personal attacks begin. I wish this forum had a killfile, because I would prefer not to see your posts, and it IS NOT because I don't agree with your positions, but rather how you resort to personal attacks and flamebaiting in lieu of coherently stating your opinions.
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A lot of interesting viewpoints above... a couple of things while reading them came up- Our so-called humanitarian aid is mostly bribes given to foreign leaders- We traditionally do not trust people we cannot buy off, and that's how we wind up with 'friends' like Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi, who operate hideous secret police forces such as Savak, trained to be hideous by our own er, 'Officers'... One big problem with this bribe system is that you wind up with people who are sometimes willing to go off to a higher bidder, or the bribe/favor/aid wears off, such as in the Mandela turnaround. Second thing was, If we had developed fuel cells by now, and had no use for this Persian Gulf supply, would we really care what Saddam does to Iranians or Kuatis or anybody else next door? Would we really? I don't think we would, as a national collective. Perhaps we should, but I don't think we'd have several hundred thousand troops all heading over there. And somebody above pointed out (correctly, I think) that our persistant support of Israel with Billions each year has to be a factor in the whole hate-America sentiment which drives some ungrounded people into Hamas and Al-Qaeda. Remember that these groups are more like Mob families in the Organization than they are distant relatives who hardly ever see each other. Finally, Bin-Laden provides money to humanitarian organizations and to Islamic publications and groups. So what? Does that absolve the subsequent attacks?

"We are the Federales... You know, the Mounted Police..."

---"If you're the police, where are your badges?"

"Bodges?..."

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I just love the anti-Israel sentiment I have seen on these boards. So quick the two of you are to blame "the Jews", eh? They are our allies in the perpetuation of FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY. I am an proud American first, but I am also a proud Jew who has lost most of my family to Adolph and friends. (I would not be here posting this if it wasn't for Oscar Schindler being there to save just a token what was left of my family, incidentally) Israel was essentially born of the blood and ashes of 6 million Jews that were MURDERED. It's formation wasn't exactly "country formation 101", but IT IS THERE... AND WE ARE ALLIES. We also send $$BILLIONS$$ to other countries. Many muslims HATE the U.S. and the Jews because they are forced to live like SHIT and are taught by their dictators to believe that this is happening to them because of the U.S. and the Jews. This anti-Israel talk is all about THEM winning the terrorist campaign against YOU, Americans who conviently forget the ties that bind and think it is easier to play the "blame the Jew" card. Well I say FUCK YOU, because we all have a right to opine, right? The Iraqi regime, needs a good dose of "nation building", and I for one hope it goes quicky as well. "No blood for oil"???? Fuck you too. Everything other that steel, wood, glass, and cement is made from oil/petroleum products. DUH! Could you imagine the worlwide disaster if that Hussein got a hold of 60% of the worlds oil in 91'??? Think about it. Now.......China/N.Korea? Why don't we fuck with them? Would you? What for? You think we would have a conventional ground war with these giant military monsters? Hell no. No dang oil either now. Just the way it is. Oil...at this time....keeps the "worlds engine" running. You think the Bushies are schmucks, right? I bet you do, as most artsy/music folks are to the left is huge numbers...and that's fine. We can all agree to disagree. Two party system. Checks and balances. The American way. You elect to live here. We vote. We treat women just a WEEEEEEEEEEEE better than those scum-bunnies over there. Rant over. Bite me. :wave:

Joe Pine (60's talk show host who sported a wooden leg) to Frank Zappa -- "So, with your long hair, I guess that makes you a woman." Frank Zappa's response -- "So, with your wooden leg, I guess that makes you a table."

 

 

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2001&alid=-1

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