Steve LeBlanc Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 [quote]Now Stephen my good fellow; Astrology is not a religion, so I don't see the analogy to your experience with your Christian friend.[/quote]How is it different from religion??? You literally have to take a leap of faith to believe it's real...I challenge you to show me one valid source that considers Astrology scientific. [quote]Also, I am not proselytizing or trying to convert anyone. Some folks, like yourself were mocking my post on astrology. I am probing whether or not you, or they know what they are talking about.[/quote]I never mocked anything...I just clearly stated my belief that it's bullshit...that's not mocking that's just calling it as I see it. You continue to make broad assumptions about my history and even about my character..Pshaw! :) FWIW...I spent a couple of years believing in Astrology and 'studied' it quite a bit along with Tarot and other psychic practices...I was really intrigued by metaphysics for awhile. But in the end 99% of it is bullshit. I'm done with this conversation...I question your ability to debate this without dwelling on intangibles so.... Best of luck to you. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mats Olsson. Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Basically, to say astrology works means that there are a lot of satisfied customers. It does not mean that astrology is accurate in predicting human behavior or events to a degree significantly greater than mere chance. There are many satisfied customers who believe that their horoscope accurately describes them and that their astrologer has given them good advice. Good astrologers give good advice, but that does not validate astrology. There have been several studies which have shown that people will use selective thinking to make any chart they are given fit their preconceived notions about themselves and their charts. Many of the claims made about signs and personalities are vague and would fit many people under many different signs. Even professional astrologers, most of whom have nothing but disdain for Sun Sign Astrology, can't pick out a correct horoscope reading at better than a chance rate. /Mats http://www.lexam.net/peter/carnut/man.gif What do we want? Procrastination! When do we want it? Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uh Clem Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b] [quote]Hey Matts I will let Mr. Einstein reply for me: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fantasy is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am curious just what you think he meant by that statement that you so proudly use in you by-line. [/quote][/b][/quote]Exactly how do you see a quote about Fantasy relating to Astronomy? I have my ideas, but I thought it curious that you would draw a connection. I think I am psychic though: as soon as I heard that the shuttle was in trouble, I said "oh shit, I predict that the prediction thread on CA's Forum is going to try to take some credit for it". How uncanny was that? Yeah, I got your lottery numbers right here. In fact, I predict the lottery number the reader is holding or might purchase, is not going to win. Sorry. So, Chip - am I'm batting 1000 so far or what? :D Steve Powell - Bull Moon Digital www.bullmoondigital.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted February 3, 2003 Author Share Posted February 3, 2003 [quote]I think I am psychic though: as soon as I heard that the shuttle was in trouble, I said "oh shit, I predict that the prediction thread on CA's Forum is going to try to take some credit for it". How uncanny was that? [/quote]Well your prediction was wrong. I have not said that he predicted anything. Or taken any credit for his prediction. I just posted it. I just had an inspiration.... I think some folks may have your head up Uranus, and a bad moon rising....... :D Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by = stevepow =: [b]So, Chip - am I'm batting 1000 so far or what? :D [/b][/quote]10 pts... However, if you want to hear a conspiracy theory (of sorts) - how about this: Does anyone remember the bit that the King said about February 5th, presenting the U.N. evidence about Iraq's WMD program....? It will be very interesting to see A) if it makes the news at all and B) if so, what actually happens and C) if the "evidence" turns out to be actually "evidentiary" (as King George might say). If it turns out there *isn't* any evidence... or for "some reason" it gets put aside... Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneinaPond Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 "A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual", find out how he feels about astrology." Robert Heinlein "It requires wisdom to understand wisdom; the music is nothing if the audience is deaf." Walter Lippmann (1889-1974) "The world, indeed, is like a dream and the treasures of the world are an alluring mirage. Like the apparent distances in a picture, things have no reality in themselves but are like heat haze." Unknown, although attributed to the Buddha "There are more things on heaven and earth, Horatio, than dreamed of in your philosophy." William Shakespeare It's not like the gentleman who posted the original subject does this every day. No, he quoted somebody saying something big was about to happen within the next couple of days. Well, something big did happen, and not something that could happen every day. And when least expected. Now only a fool will try vehemently to defend a position that this is mere coincidence. And we in the West have becomed fooled by our celebration of this thing we call science, based on measurement and the concept of linear time. Science gives only the smallest of peeks of what really exists in this thing we refer to as our reality. And before you burn me at the stake, my opinion about astrology as represented by daily newspapers is that it is entertainment, and pretty poor entertainment at that. Yorik Stone In A Pond "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Pierce Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]Dave, I have not attacked anyone.[/quote][/b] Nor have you addressed the fundamental issue that I raised in my very first post to this thread. And at this point it seems very clear that you will not address it, because doing so would preclude you from placing people like me and Stephen into a neat little "unbeliever" category and deriding them. So be it. [quote][b] I am the one who has been attacked. All I have asked is how can you dismiss something if you know nothing about it? [/quote][/b] Did you read my post? I stated there, and I state again: I am not dismissing astrology. I am not dismissing astrology. I am not dismissing astrology. What I tell you three times is true. I am pointing out that the astrological predictions presented in this thread are non-specific. Is there something I can do to clarify the differences between these two things? I don't know why I'm even responding at this point. Your reply makes it clear that you have no interest whatsoever in reasonable discourse on this topic. Bottom line: All I'm saying now, and all I've ever said is that most astrological predictions, including the one which began this thread, are non-specific to the point of being unprovable. No one, including you Jotown, has presented anything contrary to this statement. Furthermore, discussion of the specificity of predictions requires no knowledge of either science or astrology. It requires only the prediction itself, and the ability to speak and understand the language in which the prediction is written. Is this really such a difficult concept? --Dave Make my funk the P-funk. I wants to get funked up. My Funk/Jam originals project: http://www.thefunkery.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roto Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b] I have never said that he predicted anything. I have merely been defending the attacks on astrolgy and on myself. Please read the entire thread, and check the dates before you comment.[/b][/quote]But you did say this [quote] This astrologer got alot of press for accurately predicting a terrorist attack on 9-11-01. [/quote]which would leave me to believe he could get a lot of press for this prediction however vague he made it. I meant it was pure b.s. [i]if[/i] he claims this was a prediction of the shuttle tragedy, or if some tabloid or whoever gives these kind of things press passes it off that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted February 3, 2003 Author Share Posted February 3, 2003 He has made no claims about predicting the Shuttle Tragedy. Nor have I. Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted February 3, 2003 Author Share Posted February 3, 2003 Dave Pierce. I never made any predictions. I merely posted a heads up to my friends here at this forum. That is all. I did not respond directly to your initial post because I didn't feel a response was warranted. I posted a quote, you posted a dismissal of the quote. End of story. I hadn't made a prediction, so I saw no need to defend your attack on a prediction that had not been made in the first place. Saturday morning a few people made a correlation between my post and the shuttle disaster. I responded to them and clarified a couple of questions that were asked. I repeat; I never said that he, or I predicted the shuttle disaster.At that point more attacks against astrology, and myself were made. I simply asked those attacking if they actually knew anything about astrology. All that was tendered were quotes from sun sign news columns, which as has been stated, is not astrology at all. I still see no need to debate the merits of the topic of this post becase Mr. Pierce; I made no predictions, so I have no need to defend them. To Dave Pierce, Stephen LeBlanc, = stevepow =, Mats_Olsson, Dan South: It was never my intention to offend any of you. I merely posted a heads up to people I thought were my friends. I still do not understand the vehemence of you reactions, or why you have gotten so defensive when asked how you can dismiss something that you know little about. My mom used to say never discuss religion, politics, or sex in polite company. I will now add Astrology to that list. And the next time my esteemed astrologer friend sends me a warning, I will be sure not to pass it on here. Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Pierce Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]To Dave Pierce, Stephen LeBlanc, = stevepow =, Mats_Olsson, Dan South: It was never my intention to offend any of you. I merely posted a heads up to people I thought were my friends. I still do not understand the vehemence of you reactions, or why you have gotten so defensive when asked how you can dismiss something that you know little about. My mom used to say never discuss religion, politics, or sex in polite company. I will now add Astrology to that list. And the next time my esteemed astrologer friend sends me a warning, I will be sure not to pass it on here.[/b][/quote]Jotown, if you thought of me as a friend, and now do not, I am truly sorry for that. :cry: At no point did I intend to attack you in any way. I've re-read my posts, and I'm unsure why any of it was interpreted as an attack. Even when you responded to my post with [quote] Ignorance is bliss. Have a blissful day.[/quote]I didn't respond with anything intended as a personal attack. Your mother's advice was sound, and since astrology has many things in common with religions, adding it to your list is not a bad idea. :D --Dave Make my funk the P-funk. I wants to get funked up. My Funk/Jam originals project: http://www.thefunkery.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mats Olsson. Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Jotown, relax. Of course your care & friendship is widely appreciated here. Geoff Grace said: "I agree with the saying, "It's the thought that counts." /Mats http://www.lexam.net/peter/carnut/man.gif What do we want? Procrastination! When do we want it? Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 [quote]And we in the West have becomed fooled by our celebration of this thing we call science, based on measurement and the concept of linear time. Science gives only the smallest of peeks of what really exists in this thing we refer to as our reality. And before you burn me at the stake, my opinion about astrology as represented by daily newspapers is that it is entertainment, and pretty poor entertainment at that.[/quote]Please tell me what you smoke...marijuana doesn't get me there...did you come to these realizations while smoking crack or did some religious/metaphysical nut convince you of it? ;) OK...that might have been insulting...but I want to point out to [b]Jotown[/b] once more that NEVER did I attack you in this thread. I attacked Astrology and I did it very conservatively because I knew that you do believe in it and didn't want you to feel attacked and/or take it personally. If you'll reread my first two posts to this thread this should be clear. You on the otherhand have insulted me...purposely, indirectly or whatever...several times in this thread. oops...I rejoined the conversation...oh well. :D http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 [quote]You on the otherhand have insulted me...purposely, indirectly or whatever...several times in this thread. [/quote]But Stephen, I was not attacking you, just your attacks on astrology.....(this could become a very circular debate, a feedback loop of sorts) :) Anyway, I did not mean for my rebuttal to be taken so personally, and I have apologized for offending you, or anyone else here. Now as for your personal attack on one of the only people who have defended me here,........ :confused: :D Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Grace Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 ([i]Please note:[/i] Most of you know me as [b]soapbox[/b], but this post is under my real name.) [quote][i]Originally posted by Mats_Olsson:[/i] You are right Geoff, Jotown is a caring person and we should be grateful.[/quote][b]Mats[/b], thank you for considering my appeal and acknowledging this about [b]Jotown[/b]. In the middle of a debate or argument, it can be difficult to see any good qualities in one's opponent, and even more so to mention them. For the record, I want to add that the people debating both sides of this issue in this thread are among my favorite forum members. Even though I enjoy a good debate, it looked (when I posted above) as if the discussion was getting personal. That's why I wanted to step in and offer everyone a way out before it got too ugly. However, I respect everyone's right to his or her own free choices. I wish you all a thought-provoking debate, if that's what you want; and I hope that no one will leave this thread resenting another forum member. Best, Geoff My Blue Someday appears on Apple Music | Spotify | YouTube | Amazon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Well...I hope everyone here has a decent sense of humor...if anyone is losing sleep over conversations like this they're chopping at the wrong tree, the one with a steel pole in the center. :D http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 Hey Geoff, thank you for putting some perspective on this thing, and for seeing the intent behind my posting this thread in the first place. Peace :) Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneinaPond Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 [quote] Please tell me what you smoke...marijuana doesn't get me there...did you come to these realizations while smoking crack or did some religious/metaphysical nut convince you of it? OK...that might have been insulting... [/quote]Woah there. Might have been? I'm not sure if that's the dog talking, or that strange looking mutt it's holding. You are a f***** mutt. How's that for insulting? And I'm not surprised marijuana doesn't get you there. There's nothing inside that cranium of yours to react with. Please give me some more ammunition. It's beautiful when people put up a target and yell "shoot me!" Yorik Stone In A Pond "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 HAHAHAHAHA!!!! ok sugar...keep believing your fairytale. If that's the definition of Science that you want to continue to preach by all means go right ahead...you might want to ask a Scientist what he thinks of that rubbish first. Or not. bwahahahaha! If I haven't entertained you enough yet...go listen to my music... :D http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Grace Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 ([i]Please note:[/i] Most of you know me as [b]soapbox[/b], but this post is under my real name.) [quote][i]Originally posted by Jotown:[/i] Hey Geoff, thank you for putting some perspective on this thing, and for seeing the intent behind my posting this thread in the first place.[/quote]I was happy to do it [b]Jotown[/b]. You deserved an advocate for your intentions. Best, Geoff My Blue Someday appears on Apple Music | Spotify | YouTube | Amazon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneinaPond Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 [quote] If that's the definition of Science that you want to continue to preach by all means go right ahead...you might want to ask a Scientist what he thinks of that rubbish first. Or not. [/quote]Could you please repeat that in English. And while you're at it, please refresh my memory of "the definition of Science" you speak of. Perhaps if you took that bone you're chewing out of your mouth, that non-existing brain might get freed up to do some thinking. Yorik Stone In A Pond "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 [quote]And we in the West have becomed fooled by our celebration of this thing we call science, based on measurement and the concept of linear time. Science gives only the smallest of peeks of what really exists in this thing we refer to as our reality.[/quote]ok fine...you weren't giving a definition of science exactly but your statement is still looney. Are you arguing that people in the west conduct science differently than people in the east???? And when you say that "Science gives only the smallest peaks for this thing we refer to as our reality"...I'm sorry but that just makes me laugh. However, I don't have time to go back and forth with you on this. Like I said, believe what you will...sorry if I offended you. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by StoneinaPond: [b]"A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual", find out how he feels about astrology." Robert Heinlein "It requires wisdom to understand wisdom; the music is nothing if the audience is deaf." Walter Lippmann (1889-1974) It's not like the gentleman who posted the original subject does this every day. No, he quoted somebody saying something big was about to happen within the next couple of days. Well, something big did happen, and not something that could happen every day. And when least expected. Now only a fool will try vehemently to defend a position that this is mere coincidence. And we in the West have becomed fooled by our celebration of this thing we call science, based on measurement and the concept of linear time. Science gives only the smallest of peeks of what really exists in this thing we refer to as our reality. [/b][/quote]Thank you also StoneinaPond for trying to defend me here. I didn't want anyone else to get pulled into my side of this debate. To all out there who feel that western science is the only lens through which one can view reality I would say this: Many, many great thinkers have come before us, and this little sliver of time that is our current existence. To dismiss their ideas, and to assume that only we in the west could possibly have an understanding of the working of this grand universe, is most certainly arrogant. Philosophy is a lot like music. The more styles and ideas that one has considered, the broader ones view, and voice will be. To dismiss something you do not understand, or agree with is the worst form of folly. It is interesting that most wars are fought for this very reason. Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Yeah it's even dumber in full-context...thanks J. :D http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george costanza Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Let me offer a way to cut through this---the main difference between science & belief is proof. However at various times folk wisdom has preceded science in many demonstrable cases, while being dicredited until proof caught up. Conversely much "science" has been eventually discredited when [i]new[/i] evidence demonstrated that the previous authority was wrong. Like the war between "creationists" & evolutionists*, the whole thing is a false dichotomy based more on the needs of different cabals to be "right". Do not mistake this for a statement that all things are true; they clearly are not , at least not all at the same time or in the same place. [Modern physics is a wonderland, NO?] :D [*evolution need only be recognized as the means of creation] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 [quote]Do not mistake this for a statement that all things are true; they clearly are not , at least not all at the same time or in the same place. [b][Modern physics is a wonderland, NO?][/b] [/quote]Maybe. Great thinkers in the east, as far back as a couple of thousand of years ago, have written about the same things that western physics just has recently discovered. "Zen Physics" by David Darling, and another book called the "Tao of Physics" by an author whose name escapes me, are great exploratory discussions on this topic. To dismiss eastern philosohers and eastern scientific thought in general, before one has truly studied it, is a pretty empty argument against it. But I have said that a few different ways already haven't I? Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneinaPond Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 [quote] ok fine...you weren't giving a definition of science exactly but your statement is still looney. [/quote]Thanks. You are finally reading the post [quote] Are you arguing that people in the west conduct science differently than people in the east???? [/quote]Not quite sure how you arrived at that logic. But no, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that science is all good and fine at measuring gross phenomena. It describes these "objects" using it's own very narrow definitions of what constitutes scientific observation. But if you have read even a small amount of what is going on in the field of sub atomic physics, you would have become aware that "Scientist" are coming up against some very strange paradoxes. Namely, that when you get to the level of the atom and beyond, it becomes more dificult and eventually impossible to objectively define the universe. If you are interested you might start with Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and go on from there. [quote] And when you say that "Science gives only the smallest peaks for this thing we refer to as our reality"...I'm sorry but that just makes me laugh. [/quote]Hey, keep on laughing, it's good for your health. Wish it could do more for your brain. Ah well...... :wave: Yorik Stone In A Pond "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneinaPond Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 [quote] "Zen Physics" by David Darling, and another book called the "Tao of Physics" by an author whose name escapes me, are great exploratory discussions on this topic. [/quote]The Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra. Read it almost thirty years ago. I see it now has several epilogues. Time to get it again. Yorik Stone In A Pond "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Pierce Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]To dismiss eastern philosohers and eastern scientific thought in general, before one has truly studied it, is a pretty empty argument against it. But I have said that a few different ways already haven't I?[/b][/quote][heavy sigh] And who, pray tell, has "dismissed eastern philosophers and eastern scientific thought in general" in this thread? Wha? This poster, for one, has said over and over that he is not dismissing ANYTHING -- merely asking questions. Don't you see the irony in this -- trying to be the proponent of Eastern philosophy while simultaneously deriding and dismissing anyone who dares to question your proclamations? Oh, I give up. --Dave Make my funk the P-funk. I wants to get funked up. My Funk/Jam originals project: http://www.thefunkery.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted February 4, 2003 Author Share Posted February 4, 2003 [quote]This poster, for one, has said over and over that he is not dismissing ANYTHING -- merely asking questions. [/quote]Dave, I did not direct that quote at you. Why must you claim it? I was referring to posters in general who dismiss things without understanding them. Thats all. [quote]And who, pray tell, has "dismissed eastern philosophers and eastern scientific thought in general" in this thread? Wha? [/quote]Maybe you need to re-read this thread. Astrology is from the east, and it is very intertwined with much eastern philosophy and thought. But you knew that right? :) Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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