BIG Astrological Event Today. !-31-03

[Salty Tonk]

Actually Guitplayer,I think you are a psychic.I hadn't thought about the Challenger in years at least until I read the thread you started on the anniversary of that event.The last few days I've thought about it quite frequently.When I woke this morning and turned on the tube,I thought I was dreaming.It was so surreal.My heart and prayers go out to the familys and all of the folks at NASA. :cry:

[G. Ratte]

I dunno. I've always poo-pooed astrology. But one acquaintance of mine, an Asian programmer, is really into it. And I've seen her make some startlingly accurate and specific comments on people she's just met. There are a lot of different astrological theories and whatnot, and I don't know what system she uses but someday I'll bug her about it. But I do know the stuff in the newspapers is garbage. Real astrologers don't like to say anything unless they know where you were born and the time of birth to within 5 minutes. You can't generalize to a month and no location, it doesn't work that way. So anyways... I think it's foolish to blow off something just because I don't understand it. I couldn't tell you too much detail about a radial engine; but I've seen an RX-7, eh.

[Rog]

I don't see how anyone can dismiss astrology out of hand and yet at the same time be religious :freak:

[Salyphus]

I find your lack of faith [url=http://www.ophira.com/astrology/starwars.html]disturbing[/url] .

[Mats Olsson.]

1. Astrology is NOT science. The true definition of science does not apply to astrology. 2. Astrology is an old "technique". So old in fact that it was thought up when the earth was still flat, when earth was the center of the universe. Back in those days they did not even have the same calendar that we have today. The dates of all star signs are out sync by several months compared to the calendar we are using now. I'm not making this up, check it out, there's tons of info out there. 3. Astrology is a meal ticket for a lot of folks. They are all con artists. If people want to believe in it, fine with me, just don't call it science. /Mats

[Dave Pierce]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]First, and with much respect. Love and blessings to these astronauts and their families at this sad time. The actual event was from 1-28 to 2-01. I left out some of the details to keep the post short. So let me see. On the 31st there was the military plane crash in Afganistan, the train wreck in Australia. There have been numerous truck bridge related accidents. Here in Michigan we had a truck launch off of a bridge and crash. Also on the 28th we had that massive expolsion in North Carolina. Anyway, you folks don't believe in this stuff do ya'? The astrology things you read in the newspapers are very general, and meant for entertainment. Real astrology is a science. There are alot of factors that go into a prediction like the one my friend offered. One more note: In the original prediction I recieved, he also mentioned Israel, due to how this event was transiting the chart for that country. One of the dead on the space shuttle as an Israeli astronaut. Hm..... To all of you naysayers, it is a good idea to have some understanding of a subject before you dismiss it. Most of you negative posters obviously do not.[/b][/quote]Dude, use your head. How vague and non-specific was that "prediction"? How.... Oh, forget it. I'm not going to think for you, it's enough to think for myself. So......OK, you're right -- your friend, the well-respected and accurate practitioner of the science of astrology, predicted the tragedy that happened this morning. Those of us who didn't believe him are foolish and naive simpletons. Be sure to get Wednesday's Lotto numbers from him. --Dave

[D. Gauss]

i predict a big, yellow, ball of fire will rise in the eastern sky sometime tomorrow morning....slowly it will trail across the sky and then disappear at day's end, throwing at least 1/2 the world into total darkness. -d. gauss

[Jotown]

Well you know what they say; Ignorance is bliss. Have a blissful day. :D

[Dave Pierce]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]Well you know what they say; Ignorance is bliss. Have a blissful day. :D [/b][/quote]Uhhhhhhhh. Riiiigghhhttt. Yeah, so OK then. --Dave

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by Mats_Olsson: [b]1. Astrology is NOT science. The true definition of science does not apply to astrology. 2. Astrology is an old "technique". So old in fact that it was thought up when the earth was still flat, when earth was the center of the universe. Back in those days they did not even have the same calendar that we have today. The dates of all star signs are out sync by several months compared to the calendar we are using now. I'm not making this up, check it out, there's tons of info out there. 3. Astrology is a meal ticket for a lot of folks. They are all con artists. If people want to believe in it, fine with me, just don't call it science. /Mats[/b][/quote]1) Many universities now offer degree progarams in astrology. 2) I guess you never heard of Sidereal astrology huh? 3) Do you consider music a science? Hey Matts I will let Mr. Einstein reply for me: [quote] Fantasy is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein [/quote]I am curious just what you think he meant by that statement that you so proudly use in you by-line. Just know that he is probably reading your post right now and chuckling at you over the irony of it. :wave:

[Mats Olsson.]

Jotown, I don't see the irony. As I said, astrology is not science. You did. And in what way does my statement contradict Einsteins quote? /Mats

[Jotown]

[quote]I am curious just what you think he meant by that statement that you so proudly use in you by-line. [/quote]Answer my question first. :)

[Chip McDonald]

Just for yucks: [quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]Many universities now offer degree progarams in astrology.[/b][/quote]What universities? [b]2) I guess you never heard of Sidereal astrology huh?[/b] Explain what proof there is of a connection of this to reality? [b]3) Do you consider music a science?[/b] No. Effect is much more difficult to predict than cause. "Something is going to happen" is easier than "you're going to stub your right toe at 3:43 tomorrow". Your life is going to fall into one of two categories: either it's mostly "good", or mostly "bad". Which means any prediction on the nature of "your life" can have at least a 50% chance of being obliquely relevant. So unless an astrologist makes a very *specific* prediction, I do not put any weight in such silliness - regardless of it's actually legitimate or not, because it would have to exceed that 50% accuracy rate to be *useful*. It *never* does, and never will be useful because of that. What's more intriguing to me about the Nature of the Universe statistically impossible *specific* instances of "luck". That is something that I believe does exist, and perhaps people in history have capitalized on it in some fashion. For instance, had someone brought up the subject of the shuttle in the forums the day before, and someone else perhaps the weather in Nacogoches Texas; that would be more interesting than a generalized prediction. Particularly when one could look around and know the shuttle was re-entering today. It was highly probably something like this was going to occur to the shuttle one day; making a generalized prediction on it isn't exactly "amazing". One could look up dates relevant to PLO activities and make ambiguous predictions for those dates in the future - if something were to occur on said date it wouldn't exactly be amazing. Astrologists are known for making long-shot predictions and nothing coming of it; that they hit one occasionally doesn't confirm any real ability or phenomena. The longevity of it indicates that perhaps at one time there was something of an art to people who were attuned to noticing details in some oblique way that came across as "cosmic insight" but the "science" of it is based in non-sense. Show me a 100% accurate astrologist, or even one of greater than say 60% accuracy and I'll change my position. The shuttle was a tragic accident, it could have happened last year, it could happen again; sorry, unless this guy could have specified something *and saved lives* it's chicanery that shouldn't be popularized in modern culture anymore than it already is IMO.

[Mats Olsson.]

Ok Jotown: To me Einsteins quote "Fantasy is more important than knowledge" means a couple of things: To have a good life, fantasy is important. Many great discoveries have been made by using imagination. Knowledge is not always enough to take mankind to the next level of knowledge and awareness. Without fantasy: no art, no music, no fictionary literature, no aeroplanes, no internet. Not much of anything really. I could go on... /Mats

[Geoff Grace]

([i]Please note:[/i] Most of you know me as [b]soapbox[/b], but this post is under my real name.) I'm going to set aside the question of whether or not astrology has any validity. Instead I want to address what I believe was the intent of this thread. In that spirit, thank you [b]Jotown[/b] for caring enough about our well-being to give us a heads up about what you feared could be a tragic day. I agree with the saying, "It's the thought that counts." I respect your right to your beliefs. The best I can do upon examining the nature of reality is say "this makes sense to me" or "this doesn't make sense to me." Ultimately, I am humbled by the realization that my finite brain is but a microscopic tool with which to attempt to understand an infinite universe. Let me put it this way. It's obvious that 2 + 2 = 4, right? However, what if the equation actually looks like this "2 + 7 + 2 + 10 + 14 + 3 + 12 = x" and yet we can only perceive the number 2? In that case, we would add 2 + 2, arrive at 4 and be absolutely certain that we were right, even though the correct answer would be 50. What I'm saying is that a finite brain will certainly miss pieces in an infinite puzzle. To paraphrase a great saying, "Let (s)he who is infallible be the first to ridicule others' beliefs." Now that people have expressed their beliefs that Jotown gave us a heads up based on a false premise, how about acknowledging that he cared enough about us to give us that heads up at all? Best, Geoff

[Mats Olsson.]

You are right Geoff, Jotown is a caring person and we should be grateful. /Mats

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by Geoff Grace: [b]([i]Please note:[/i] Most of you know me as [b]soapbox[/b], but this post is under my real name.) I'm going to set aside the question of whether or not astrology has any validity. Instead I want to address what I believe was the intent of this thread. In that spirit, thank you [b]Jotown[/b] for caring enough about our well-being to give us a heads up about what you feared could be a tragic day. I agree with the saying, "It's the thought that counts." Now that people have expressed their beliefs that Jotown gave us a heads up based on a false premise, how about acknowledging that he cared enough about us to give us that heads up at all? Best, Geoff[/b][/quote]Thank you Geof. You have correclty stated my intentions, and I do appreciate that. That person rarely sends me tips of that nature, so I felt it would be good to pass it on. I had no idea that it was going to push so many bitch buttons. I will say this though to those who so vehemently dismiss astrology in general and the people who give it any validity. Unless you have studied astrology in some detail; That is read and studied at least 20 key astrolgy books, have extensively studied your own birth chart, as well as studied the charts of all of the major events in your life against that chart, you are giving at best, your uninformed opinion, which is based on nothing more than your feelings. You probably don't even know why you don't believe in it, probably because you parents didn't, or you have heard someone say it was bunk. The truth is that you really don't know enough about it to have an intelligent opinion. When I was a child my intention was to become a capuchin monk. I had been trained and schooled for a couple of years in this discipline. When I became a teenager I had some serious doubts in catholocism/christianity, so I decided to study it. I read the bible several times. I read many books on theology, history and philosophy. After my in-depth study, I decided that I did not agree with the catholic/christian complex. My belief was based on a probing analysis. So I can say that I have a very informed opinion on the matter, yet it is still just my opinion. And I don't begrudge those who do believe in it. For those of you reacting in such a knee jerk way I would say you should ask yourself "why it bothers you so much?" Because if you haven't explored astrology in depth, you really don't know what you are talking about. Just expressing what is at best your very uninformed personal opinion. And that is my opinion.

[Mats Olsson.]

Well, as I said, I have no problem with any persons belief/disbelief/devotion/scepticism towards astrology. But what annoys me to the nth degree is when astrology is called a "science". Astrology is NOT a science, and this is not an opinion. /Mats

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]Unless you have studied astrology in some detail; That is read and studied at least 20 key astrolgy books, have extensively studied your own birth chart, as well as studied the charts of all of the major events in your life against that chart, you are giving at best, your uninformed opinion, which is based on nothing more than your feelings. [/b][/quote]Out of all of that, what evidence do you have that such things relate to the physical world on earth? [b]You probably don't even know why you don't believe in it, probably because you parents didn't, or you have heard someone say it was bunk. The truth is that you really don't know enough about it to have an intelligent opinion.[/b] I'm a skeptic. I'm waiting for evidence. [b]For those of you reacting in such a knee jerk way I would say you should ask yourself "why it bothers you so much?" Because if you haven't [/b] It bothers *me* so much, because I perceive it as a sociological step backwards. When I was a kid, astrology was considered a quaint belief, palmistry relegated to the quick setup shot in the medieval movies. Somewhere around about 3-4 years ago, it suddenly has entered the mainstream with palmists, psychics and astrogers seen as common fair as flea markets, concerts, outdoor events. That bugs me, because I quite frankly think it's a load of bs. Based on that, seeing so many people these days "believe" in it is disturbing. I don't have to "explore" astrology. What astrology purports to be is either provable or not, and so far it's "not". There has to be at some point a causal relationship between the natural world and the supernatural established, otherwise it's what it appears to be. I don't believe in "leaps of faith".

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Mats_Olsson: [b]1. Astrology is NOT science. The true definition of science does not apply to astrology.[/b][/quote]It's not a science for two reasons. First, it does not provide measurable or repeatable outcomes. Second, a science works everywhere; astrology is based on the observation point of the earth. If you traveled to a planet in another solar system, the sky would look entirely different. There's be no Orion, Big Dipper, Draco, etc. Alignments that seemed to mean something or earth ("Mars is in Libra today...") mean nothing universally. [quote][b]3. Astrology is a meal ticket for a lot of folks. They are all con artists. If people want to believe in it, fine with me, just don't call it science. [/b][/quote]Psychic and astrological phenomena have been proven to be unreliable. I won't go so far as to say that they're entirely false, because you can't prove a negative (a positive example could always exist). These phenomena work because we (collectively) WANT them to work and find evidence to support them. For example, inagine that someone who you believed to have precognitive powers (whether through psychic powers, astrology, palm reading, whatever) told you the following: "This month finds you mulling over a major life decision. As you face challenges that you have been secretly analyzing for some time, a new, more urgent concern will arise. A red car will lead you to the answer, but be careful not to invest too much confidence in the advice of a friend. Be aware also that the numbers 2 and 7 are critical to navigating these treacherous waters successfully." Wow! Lots of information, right? Forget it. It's all bullshit, but here are several reasons why you'll fall for it. "This month finds you mulling over a major life decision." - Everyone mulls over major life decisions. "As you face challenges that you have been secretly analyzing for some time..." - This is applicable to just about everyone. "...a new, more urgent concern will arise." - How unusual would THAT be? "A red car will lead you to the answer..." - Red cars are everywhere. "be careful not to invest too much confidence in the advice of a friend." - Translation: your friend will try to expose this fraud for what it is - don't listen to them. "Be aware also that the numbers 2 and 7 are critical to navigating these treacherous waters successfully." - So if a phone number or a license place or an address or the total of a guest check contains a two or a seven, you'll be convinced. But wait. 7 - 2 = 5, so maybe five is a valid clue, too. 7 + 2 = 9. Nine inverted looks like six. Now you've covered half of the possible digits, and you only need to find one of these in the course of a month to be convinced. Good thinking!!!

[Salyphus]

I still think Rog totally nailed it: [quote] I don't see how anyone can dismiss astrology out of hand and yet at the same time be religious [/quote]Does anyone care to address that point? I guess I would have to call myself an Astrology-Agonostic ;)

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by Mats_Olsson: [b]Well, as I said, I have no problem with any persons belief/disbelief/devotion/scepticism towards astrology. But what annoys me to the nth degree is when astrology is called a "science". Astrology is NOT a science, and this is not an opinion. /Mats[/b][/quote]Chip McDonald wrote: [quote]I don't have to "explore" astrology. [/quote]Dan South wrote: [quote]Psychic and astrological phenomena have been proven to be unreliable. I won't go so far as to say that they're entirely false, [/quote]A wise man knows the difference between opinion and fact, whereas an arrogant man fails to see the necessity for such distinctions. :idea: I would also ask if any of you are Christians, or members of any organized religion?

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]To all of you naysayers, it is a good idea to have some understanding of a subject before you dismiss it. Most of you negative posters obviously do not.[/quote]I find it very weird that you would translate my non-belief in something to mean I have no understanding of it. Recently a Christian came at me with the same argument...I was asked to answer whether I believed in God or not...I didn't volunteer my opinion I was asked what I believed. My answer was that I'm an atheist. My answer wasn't good enough for this Xtian...I was then drilled...told I couldn't know enough about Christianity to form an opinion...that I [b]must[/b] be agnostic...that some day I will see the light, etc. etc. etc. I ask that you give me a bit more credit...I didn't make any assumptions about you in my posts earlier...I only stated my opinion on Astrology. My opinion just happens to be shared by leading professors at the most respected universities in this country but I'm still just stating my opinion. If you want to believe in the Toothfairy I'm ok with that.

[Jotown]

I will continue to answer these posts because I find this whole thing very amusing. Now Stephen my good fellow; Astrology is not a religion, so I don't see the analogy to your experience with your Christian friend. Also, I am not proselytizing or trying to convert anyone. Some folks, like yourself were mocking my post on astrology. I am probing whether or not you, or they know what they are talking about. All of the arguments against astrology so far, are quotes from newspaper sun-sign columns that aren't really astrology at all, or overblown opinions with no basis in fact. Saying that "astrology is a crock" is not an argument; at least not an intelligent one. And saying that "professors at major universities" agree with you is pretty meaningless when I know university professors at major universities who teach and practice it. I am assuming that you know nothing about astrology based on the lack of content in your responses. I am from the Leonardo Davinci school of science. I observe and test things for myself and then I make my own conclusions. Regurgitating someone else's opinion is just as meaningless as spewing your own when that opinion is not based on examination, but a feeling, or something your professor told you. As far as the tooth fairy is concerned; If 9 out of 10 professors believed in one, would you also? :p

[Mats Olsson.]

Ok, let me rephrase: Astrology is not a science, it is a craft. The old craft of astrology was based on the assumption that the earth is flat and at the center of universe. But one must also remember that this age-old craft based on some kind of calendar. Several thousand years ago, calendars of the earliest civilizations in Mesoamerica, Europe, Asia and Africa all had twelve thirty-day months in the year. Their calendar years each consisted of a nice, round, 360 days. Most of these calendars were developed independently of the others. The first calendar to resemble what we have today was the Julian calendar (aka Caesars calendar), that is also way out of sync with the current calendar (the Gregorian calendar). The calendar reformation was in 1580 and in 1582 they removed 10 days from the month of october to get back on track. The Gregorian calendar improves on the Julian calendar by utilising this formula: "Pope Gregory decreed that February would continue to have an extra day every four years—except for centennial years, in which that month would have a 29th day only if the A.D. number was evenly divisible by 400." The Julian calendar did indeed have leap years. But, and this is really intresting, every once in a while you have to adjust further: even the Gregorian calendar doesn't quite cut it - there has to be minor adjustments because of a factor called [i]vernal equinox times[/i]. In the old days, they did not have this knowledge. Curiousity: Many modern historians have accepted the figure of 445 days for 46 B.C. So a person that believes himself/herself to be a libra is really another star sign. But this little "problem" is never loudly mentioned by astrologists. Modern astrologists may claim that they have accounted/adjusted for scientific discoveries, but still, how can they know by how much they should adjust their calendar if they don't have a set date for [i]when exactly[/i] the original astrological calendar was defined in the first place? It just doesn't make sense. /Mats Links: [url=http://www.greenheart.com/billh/julian.html]The Julian Calendar[/url] [url=http://www.greenheart.com/billh/gregory.html]The Gregorian Calendar[/url] [url=http://www.greenheart.com/billh/leapyear.html]About the leap year rule[/url]

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]A wise man knows the difference between opinion and fact, whereas an arrogant man fails to see the necessity for such distinctions. [/b][/quote]Yes, exactly. It is your opinion astrology is a real phenomenon, while there are no facts in which to back that up. If there are, I'm eager to hear them... [b]I would also ask if any of you are Christians, or members of any organized religion?[/QB] Nope.

[Dave Pierce]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]Thank you Geof. You have correclty stated my intentions, and I do appreciate that. That person rarely sends me tips of that nature, so I felt it would be good to pass it on. I had no idea that it was going to push so many bitch buttons. I will say this though to those who so vehemently dismiss astrology in general and the people who give it any validity. Unless you have studied astrology in some detail; That is read and studied at least 20 key astrolgy books, have extensively studied your own birth chart, as well as studied the charts of all of the major events in your life against that chart, you are giving at best, your uninformed opinion, which is based on nothing more than your feelings. You probably don't even know why you don't believe in it, probably because you parents didn't, or you have heard someone say it was bunk. The truth is that you really don't know enough about it to have an intelligent opinion. When I was a child my intention was to become a capuchin monk. I had been trained and schooled for a couple of years in this discipline. When I became a teenager I had some serious doubts in catholocism/christianity, so I decided to study it. I read the bible several times. I read many books on theology, history and philosophy. After my in-depth study, I decided that I did not agree with the catholic/christian complex. My belief was based on a probing analysis. So I can say that I have a very informed opinion on the matter, yet it is still just my opinion. And I don't begrudge those who do believe in it. For those of you reacting in such a knee jerk way I would say you should ask yourself "why it bothers you so much?" Because if you haven't explored astrology in depth, you really don't know what you are talking about. Just expressing what is at best your very uninformed personal opinion. And that is my opinion.[/b][/quote]Jotown, If you would like to lable those of us who disagree with you as "knee-jerkers" who are "ignorant" of astrology -- and hence ignore the fundamental questions we are asking -- you are, of course, free to do so. :confused: However, I am free to resent this, and take it as evidence that you are not interested in friendly discourse, but instead wish to create yet another polarization in the universe. I see this as a fundamentally bad way to interact with others, but that's just me. :D I would like to take one last opportunity though, to see if perhaps I've misjudged you. So I will reiterate that at no point have a called you ignorant. At no point have I "dismissed" astrology. At no point have I accused you of ignorance of the scientific method. What I have done, is point out that the "prediction" that began this thread was non-specific, and did not actually predict any particular event. :rolleyes: And I stand by that statement. In fact, here are my exact words: [quote] Look, I don't pretend to understand fully how the universe works, so I try to be cautious when stating how it does not work. But if you want to tell me you have a valid, repeatable predictive system, then the predictions better be specific. [/quote]Please note that my insistence on repeatability is, by definition, a requirement for any discipline that wishes to be called a "science". At no point in this thread have you addressed this issue in any meaningful way. Instead you have accused those who say similar things of ignorance, emotionally-charged bad motives, and other [i]ad hominem[/i] attacks. So, what's it gonna be, Jotown? Or you going to address specific questions that have been raised, and thereby engage in the kind of friendly, bantering discourse that would be welcome at a dinner party or other gathering of essentially friendly people? Or are you going to continue the [i]ad hominem[/i] attacks, neatly divide the world into believers/non-believers, refuse to acknowledge that people are asking real questions, and generally behave more like a political rally? Your choice, buddy. :wave: --Dave

[Roto]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]I recieved this note from a very well respected astrologer buddy of mine. He has quite a history of being able to make accurate predictions. So keep your head up. :evil: [quote]He wrote: .....tomorrow seems a crazy day for pres and company, stock market upsets (as if that's not every week at some point), and even Iraq's chart. Will Iraq try a bluff to surrender? Will the war accidently kind of start in next few days or does it start end of feb and into march? Are there other crazy events tomorrow? Natural disaster (seems like aspects are building very similiar to quake aspects in Cal. and elsewhere)? Travel problems? Major death of important social cultural leaders? The Pope? Movie Star? Who? Oil freak outs (up prices, spills?). Weird weather? Or is it just a confusing and spiritually mystifying few days ? Seems, astrologically, something is up. [/quote][/b][/quote]It is absolutely ridiculous and complete bullshit if this guy makes claim to predicting the space shuttle breaking up on re-entry based on this quote. He said it himself, "(as if that's not every week at some point)" Weird weather or oil prices? He would've taken anything and said he was right!

[Jotown]

Dave, I have not attacked anyone. I am the one who has been attacked. All I have asked is how can you dismiss something if you know nothing about it? A google search for a sun-sign comment is not research. You are entitled to your opinion, but without knowledge about the subject being discussed, it will always be an uninformed opinion. That is not an insult, but a fact. I have not called you ignorant, but ignorant is not an insult. It just means that someone does know. I am ignorant of the principles of quantum theory because I don't know enough about it. Also I am not asking anyone to believe anything. I am simply saying that before you dismiss something, or attack someone, be sure that you understand the subject at hand. Matt's I do appreciate that you are actually trying to put some science behind your feelings. Most real astrologers use Sidereal techniques which use the fixed stars, so they are not affected by the "flat earth argument.

[Jotown]

[quote]It is absolutely ridiculous and complete bullshit if this guy makes claim to predicting the space shuttle breaking up on re-entry based on this quote. He said it himself, "(as if that's not every week at some point)"[/quote]WOW!!! Noboody, him included, is saying that he predicted the space shuttle disaster. The post was mad early on the morning of the 30th as an astrological heads up. Other posters are who made the correlation to the accident. All I said is that the actual astrological event was between the 1-28 and 2-1, and I listed some things that occured in that window. I have never said that he predicted anything. I have merely been defending the attacks on astrolgy and on myself. Please read the entire thread, and check the dates before you comment.