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13 chord?


vicsant

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Hi,

 

When you see a 13 chord, for example a C13, what notes HAVE to be there?

 

I always plays a C13 with C (L.H.), then Bb, D, E, A on the right (or inversions of those notes)i.e., E, A, Bb, D.

 

I consider the 13 chord as a dominant type chord.

 

Vic

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For solo playing, I play a triad over the root.

 

Root plus 7th, 3rd (one 8ve higher), 13th.

 

E.g., C, Bb, E, A.

 

For combo playing, it really depends on what the others are playing, or not playing. I'll often leave out the root (since the bass player should be covering that -- then again lots of times I like to double the bass player). So, if playing this as a left hand chord while noodling on right, I'd play the 7-3-13 triad and leave out the bass.

 

Note that the 7 & 13 are a semitone short of an octave apart, and that dissonance is usually the important thing in the 13 chord, or it would be spelled differently (e.g., 6th). As a matter of convention more than pure theory, I suspect. But if other folks are hammering those and nailing that dissonance, it might be best to play something much simpler.

 

In music styles where the lead player is likely to substitute a flatted 5, it's a good thing to leave the 5 out, as is the case here (though I'm not sure that would be common on a 13 chord).

 

BTW, I'm not at a keyboard and I almost ALWAYS screw this kind of thing up when going by my mind's eye.

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I love 13 chords, One of my favorite tricks is to walk them down. It has a great jazzy feel.

 

Ex .

 

Lh-C,Bb.............Rh -E,A,C

" B,A.............." D#,G# C

" Bb,Ab............" D,G,C then unsus the C to D,G,B ( Sus is Optional)

 

Just keep following this pattern right down the scale Until you turn yourself around. You do the Hokey Pokey and thats what's its all about... :rolleyes: sorry got carried away

 

 

This is just one way I tinker with them, I voice them various other ways

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What notes HAVE to be there? Well, I look at any dominant chord as a single sound. So I could have just the 7th ONLY in my left hand while I improvise. Or maybe the third and seventh... Or here's one of my favorites (Bill Evans used it); just play the 13th, 7th, and 9th in that order. It's a really cool voicing. So for C7 (or C13, it's all the same family of sounds), play A, Bb, D. Make sense?

 

Mason

Roses are red

Violets are blue

All my base

Are belong to you

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A few more voicings on C7 (all imply a C root):

 

Bb Db E A - the infamous "13 b9" chord

E Bb D F# A - good with the lydian b7 scale

 

for that "jazz meets Bartok" sound:

 

Bb Db Eb E A - goes with the diminished scale

A Bb D E

Bb Db F# A - love this one

 

Two-handed voicings:

 

Bb E A D F# - kind of an inversion of the second one above

Bb E A Db - classic Hancock

Bb E A D G C - Tyneresque

 

Dense as hell:

 

G A Bb D F# A (D)

E Bb Eb Ab Db (Gb)

Where's the 13th in the last voicing, you ask... Well there's no 13, only a b13. I just happen to like it. :D

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Just FWIW, all decent jazz pianists since about 1960 have used the following 13th chord voicing extensively ...... the root is actually on the top.

 

e.g. ... F13

 

L.H. .... Eb,A,D.

R.H. .... G,C,F.

 

It sounds so classic 'jazz' because of the fourth intervals ... A to D, D to G, G to C and C to F.

 

This voicing is moved around extensively, often in a chromatic fashion. e.g. F13 could be approached from a tone below ... Eb13, E13, F13 ... or a semi-tone above ... Gb13 to F13.

 

Eb13 is about the lowest you can go with this voicing ... Db, G, C, F, Bb, Eb. but it's common to take it right up to C13 ... (Bb, E, A, D, G, C ) or Db13.

 

Try running this voicing chromatically from G13 up to C13 with a brass patch ... sounds great and I'm sure you've heard it used before.

 

Quite often this voicing is used on a turnaround ... e.g. | F13 Ab13 | G13 Gb13 | as a substitute for F, D7, Gm7, C7.

 

Have a listen to Herbie with Miles around 1963, 64,65 if you are interested in this sound.

 

Cheers, Guy.

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When you see a 13 chord, for example a C13, what notes HAVE to be there?
I typically leave out the 5th and the 11th.

 

I have nothing against the 5th, some of my best friends are 5ths.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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Originally posted by marino:

Bb Db F# A - love this one

One of my faves as well - especially when you start moving it around by minor thirds over the same shell structure...

 

Kirk

Reality is like the sun - you can block it out for a time but it ain't goin' away...
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Originally posted by cnegrad:

Good thread. I find it interesting that you've all taken it as "a given" that a chord with 13 in it is dominant. What about Maj7 chords with 13? What about min7 chords with 13?

Traditionally speaking, dominant is generally assumed unless specified otherwise. You don't encounter the symbol "Dom 13" very often in common practice. :)
Reality is like the sun - you can block it out for a time but it ain't goin' away...
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Agree with learjeff. Smiley's approach is cool as long as you got a bass player. 9th seems extraneous - thickens but adds little flavor.

 

The extra cool thing about learjeff's voicing is you move the bass a tritone and you've got a 7+9, aka a "Hendrix Chord", if'n you work with guitarists.

I played in an 8 piece horn band. We would often get bored. So...three words:

"Tower of Polka." - Calumet

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Originally posted by learjeff:

For solo playing, I play a triad over the root.

 

Root plus 7th, 3rd (one 8ve higher), 13th.

 

E.g., C, Bb, E, A.

 

Yeah, the essential sound of the 13 chord comes from the chromatic (1/2 step) relationship between the 7th (Bb in leafjeff's example) and the 13th (A). You can skip the 5th and the 9th, and the 11th is not recommended at all, as it conflicts with the 3rd. A raised eleventh (sharp) can add an interesting color, but in most cases it's not combined with the 13th. So, play

 

C7#11

 

or

 

C13

 

but not

 

C13#11

 

unless you're in a really perverse mood.

 

:D

The Black Knight always triumphs!

 

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By the way, Weather Report's "Teen Town" (composed by Jaco Pastorius) is almost ALL 13th chords.

 

First half:

 

C13 A13 F13 D13 (repeat)

 

Second half:

 

E13 D13 A13 F#13 (repeat)

 

Jaco was one adventurous dude!

The Black Knight always triumphs!

 

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Originally posted by kad:

Originally posted by cnegrad:

Good thread. I find it interesting that you've all taken it as "a given" that a chord with 13 in it is dominant. What about Maj7 chords with 13? What about min7 chords with 13?

Traditionally speaking, dominant is generally assumed unless specified otherwise. You don't encounter the symbol "Dom 13" very often in common practice. :)
Knock yourself out. Just thought I'd make sure that participants in this thread were aware that chords with 13 in them are used everyday in chords that are not dominant sevenths.
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2 comments/questions

 

(1)Learjeff (& then Dan S) mention(s) the inherent dissonance Btween the 6th & 7th but that's soften by the placement N different octaves, just as the distance Btween any interval gives more "air" 2 the sound. Of course that can B variable depending on ensemble ranges.

 

(2) I have noticed in a previous discussions, some way back, that most players here tend toward jazz concepts for extended chords which are often different from classical ideas (4 X: a few years back I recall a discussion [& hey, it's actually the thread that Stoo links in !] that asserted that 11th chords should always exclude the 3rd, which isn't what I read in texts).

Do any of you who also include the 9th in a 13ths ever think of the chord as a sort of conflation of a 7th chord & a 6/9 ?

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Technically, the chord symbol SHOULD tell you exactly what to play. The "C13" chord symbol directs to player to play the dominant seventh, ninth, and thirteenth (beyond the basic triad). In a case where the ninth is to be omitted, the symbol should read "C7(add13)" In reality, the most basic information is usually given in the chord, and it is common practice for the player to add extensions as he/she sees fit.

 

As far as elevenths go, I've never understood why you wouldn't want to play a third and an eleventh in the same chord. I suspect it's one of those "rules" that gets passed along when someone is starting out (along with "never play the root with a bass player" and "never voice the root note in a major seventh chord"), which you should eventually learn to intelligently break. After all, there are no rules, only guidelines. Here are some examples (based on C7) of voicings I often use with dominant-type chords:

 

from bottom to top

 

LH: C F Bb RH: D E A

 

LH: F Bb D RH: E G C

 

LH: G C E RH: F Bb D

 

LH: © E Bb RH: D F A ©

 

As you may notice, all of the voicings above use both the third and the eleventh, and they are all perfectly acceptable voicings. The comination of the third and eleventh adds a special richness to the chord that I like very much. In the last example above, the third occurs below the eleventh, which creates a minor ninth interval. Many consider that a no-no, but I feel it adds a certain "bite" to the voicing that IMHO is a very desirable sound in many situations.

 

As previously stated, the whole "no third and eleventh together" thing is more of a guideline than any sort of rule. After all, LOTS of jazz pianists use these types of voicings, and they are all over classical music. Just offhand, I know that Debussy, Skryabin, and Ginastera have used chords in a number of their works that contain both thirds and elevenths. Note that I'm talking about dominant-type voicings here. The use of thirds and elevenths on minor chords is already pretty standard practice.

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yeah you would think C13 would imply dominant, but not necessarily. everyone doesn't write things exactly the same when writing "fake book style". hopefully they can be as specific as possible. when playing from this type of written music, i don't always go by the rules....just what sounds best to me....plus listening to the record. sometimes they don't always get it exactly right.

Suitcase 73 - D6 - Poly 800 - ATC-1 - Motif Rack - XV-2020 - plug-ins

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People do notate in different ways, and most of the time you can have more than one valid symbol for a chord. However, there is a difference between "different" notation and just plain wrong notation.

 

What I'm saying is that something like C13 always means a dominant chord. If it was meant to be minor, it would be Cm13, C-13, or Cm6 if it's a tonic minor. If it was a major thirteen chord, it would be CMa13, or with a little triangle in place of the "Ma", or C6/Cadd6 if it's just a triad and the sixth (no seventh). If you write C13 to imply anything other than a dominant chord, it's just plain wrong.

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Bridog,

 

While I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said, I can't honestly say that in my 30 year career that I've _ever_ seen the chord symbol C13. Nor have I ever seen C #9, C b9, C #11 or C b13. In my experience, they always have the 7th in the symbol as well.

 

Again; everything you say is true in terms of "standard sloppy inaccurate ways that jazz players tend to notate things". Yes, I guess the unofficial rule has always been, "if you don't see the dominant 7th in the symbol, just assume it anyway". But I almost never see it appear that way in the real world.

 

In fact, if I ever saw the above mentioned symbols, I'd ask for clarification as to the composer/arranger's true intent.

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Well, truth be told, I don't really ever see a symbol like "C13" either. Most often, for a an unaltered dominant chord, you will just see "C7", and it's assumed that you will include the ninth and/or thirteenth in your voicing.

 

But I have seen symbols like "C13" occasionally, and it should be taken to mean a dominant chord. This is a fact and not an unwritten rule. I suppose it never hurts to ask for clarification, but if the composer wrote that symbol for something other than a dominant chord, it's wrong on their part.

 

Composers and arrangers who like to be super specific about their voicings use the "13" symbol as well as the "9" symbol (as in C9) sometimes. You would probably see C13 while reading down a Thad Jones chart, for instance.

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In the New Real Book series by Sher Music, their charts make a fine distinction among dominant chords, e.g. among C7, C9, and C13. You'll see all three (and of course many more) fairly commonly in their charts. They conform to the "Standard Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer. Band in the Box also recognizes these and differentiates among them.

 

For example, the Sher chart of Agua De Beber has a G9 in the 4th measure, a C13 in the 6th, an E7 in the 9th, and an F9 in the 11th. Their choice of extension in most cases seems to closely reflect the melody line; for example the C13 above is written over an A in the melody. They also are very loyal to the original recording (or whatever recording they are transcribing) -- if there isn't a 9 or 13 played in the recording, then they won't include either in the extension, and just leave it at C7.

 

In the Brandt and Roemer system, a letter with a 7 or 9 or 13 immediately following is always a dominant chord.

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Originally posted by Bridog6996:

As far as elevenths go, I've never understood why you wouldn't want to play a third and an eleventh in the same chord.

Yeah, interesting, I don't know. I kinda just leave it up to my ear to decide on voicings.

 

One thing I can think of is the transcriber or artist doesn't want the 4th tone accentuated? Maybe it's a passing tone that takes away from something else going on musically, or maybe to fit it would have to be a #11, and in that context it would be too distinct a sound? I know I have chosen at times NOT to use the 11 (but use the 13) and at other times to use the 11, and it was pretty much just what sounded best to my ears.

 

Also, if you don't play the 3rd and 11th in the same chord, then there's no such thing as an 11 chord extension is there ... because without the 3rd, what do you have? A sus chord. :D

Original Latin Jazz

CD Baby

 

"I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith

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Originally posted by stoo schultz:

In the New Real Book series by Sher Music, their charts make a fine distinction among dominant chords, e.g. among C7, C9, and C13.

The Latin Real Book makes this distinction too.

Original Latin Jazz

CD Baby

 

"I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith

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Originally posted by cnegrad:

Bridog,

 

While I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said, I can't honestly say that in my 30 year career that I've _ever_ seen the chord symbol C13. Nor have I ever seen C #9, C b9, C #11 or C b13. In my experience, they always have the 7th in the symbol as well.

Apples and oranges. The 7 is necessary in the others (or else Mehegan's "x", universal use of which would render the whole last half of this discussion silent) to separate the accidental from the root. You say C9, but you say C7#9, because C#9 (even with a space) looks like an extension of a C# chord.

 

I've seen plenty of C13's. I've seen even more 7's before the 13's, BUT it's always because there's an accidental.

 

Best,

 

Daf

I played in an 8 piece horn band. We would often get bored. So...three words:

"Tower of Polka." - Calumet

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