OT: Kashmiri Family that Ken Knows - (Final Decision Made)

[KenElevenShadows]

** I just changed the subject header again. I believe I will use a credit card to wire the whole amount via Western Union to Fayaz. Please read my last Tuesday 1/21/03 post for further information. Thank you for your warmth and caring. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, this one's not so happy. Last time, one of the daughters got married. The last bunch of emails have been a lot sadder. The family has not been paying their land revenue tax (or whatever it's called; essentially, land payments) for the past eight years. The Indian government turned a blind eye to many in the tourism industry in the past, but now with the new Jammu and Kashmir State Government that has just been elected, they've reversed positions. They demanded that Fayaz and his family pay eight years of back payments in one month or they would seize the property. This includes both houseboats, which they use for income, and everything on the property. The full amount is due January 25th, and after that, the government will seize it, keep it for a year, and if no payments (including penalties) are still not paid, they will auction it off. The family is very sad and upset, but there is no way that they can come up with the money. It's obviously a fair amount of money - how much, I'm not sure, but it's probably several thousand - a lot to us, but a monstrous amount of money to a family in India that cannot get jobs due to the horrible economy and political situation in Kashmir. :(

[Bunny Knutson]

That's very unfortunate. :( Do you think we could take up a collection here for them? Is that appropriate???

[Super 8]

Wow, I'm sorry to hear about that. But why were they not paying the tax for eight years? Was is because they could not afford it? I don't know the system over there. Is it one of those kinds of systems where everyone is basically an indentured servant to the government -you get to keep 10% of your earnings- kind of thing? Seriously, does the government take into account how the family will survive after it auctions off all of their property, or is it one of those places where you can just sell your kids off for slave labor or prostitution, or be a street beggar and die of starvation? They wouldn't just garnish their wages until the debt is paid? Why doesn't the family just sell it all off to pay the government, rather than allow it to all be seized? Makes me glad I'm an American -that's for sure! I wish the best outcome for your friends. I wish I could help some way. Sadly, I am not blessed with the gift of unlimited fundage either... :(

[Bunny Knutson]

I realize your point Super 8, but if this makes you glad you're an American, try re-reading The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck. I realize that it's a work of fiction, but it is representative of the same thing that Ken's friends are experiencing. Unfortunately, it's all about the money, not the humanity. :(

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b] Seriously, does the government take into account how the family will survive after it auctions off all of their property, or is it one of those places where you can just sell your kids off for slave labor or prostitution, or be a street beggar and die of starvation? They wouldn't just garnish their wages until the debt is paid? Why doesn't the family just sell it all off to pay the government, rather than allow it to all be seized?[/b][/quote]Thanks for your comments, everyone. Super 8, to answer Question #1, no, the government doesn't care. They care about the money. It's a startling reversal from before, where they let people in the tourism trade not pay to try and bolster tourism. Since that hasn't been working, they've decided to suddenly seize the property. One month is not very much time to give a family, though. The family has either one or two years afterwards (I forgot how much time) to try and repay the government (along with penalties) after which the government will simply auction it off. It's not so different from what the U.S. or any other government would do. To answer Question #2, the family has been trying to sell off anything -- anything -- to try and repay it. The difficulty is that almost no one in Kashmir has any money, and those that do are hanging on to it for dear life. The region has been plunged into total chaos since 1989 by fighting between India and Pakistan, brutal terrorist tactics by the Indian Army, the Pakistanis, and by Kashmiri separatists who want independence from India. Tourism in what was one of the biggest holiday, ski, and honeymoon resorts has dropped off to almost nil. Many jobs in the region are given to Indians from Delhi or elsewhere instead of choosing people who live in the region, displacing many workers. Kashmiris are rarely allowed to attend university, and any gatherings are brutally put down by the Indian Army. dBunny, I have no idea if it's appropriate (I mean, I guess it would be okay) or even how to take a collection. I received another email from Fayaz. It turns out that the payments due are not quite as much as I thought. It's approximately US$1600, US$1700 at the absolute most, depending on the exchange rate. The problem is that I cannot get that much money before Jan 25th, especially now that I've very recently paid for two expensive medical procedures for my lower back and a bunch of other things to help my back as well as attempts to purchase a house AND have lost three and half weeks' wages as a result of being out from work due to back problems. If the family can sell *something* that'll knock off maybe half the price, I can come a lot closer to helping, but until then, I just can't get that amount of cash in that short of a period. Fayaz said that they didn't make payments because of the government ruling, and then continued not to make them because they never thought that this would happen. He is really kicking himself for not making the payments even though times have been really tough for them, especially financially. He thinks that if they tried really hard, they could have made them. Bad decision, perhaps, but too late now. For now, they are trying to take everything of any importance to the village, where it looks like they will have to live. I am very sad for them.

[patrick_dont_fret]

Wow, that's truly heartbreaking to know. I wish there was some way financially I could help, but I only have a couple hundred dollars for insurance, books, car repairs, etc., etc., etc. I'm sending them a trans-religion prayer/thought right now, though. It shouldn't get stopped, as this should be allowed across belief lines. I really wish they can make some sort of deal, or get the cash together as quickly as possible.

[Bunny Knutson]

Really sorry to hear this, Ken. I guess I'm just being a typical bleeding heart, and there's really not much we can do. And my above Steinbeck reference isn't really appropriate anyway, because that was a bank foreclosing on a loan, rather than a government seeking backpayment on taxes owed. Bah. This is just depressing. I hope your friends fair well, Ken.

[realtrance]

So for the price of a synthesizer, an entire family is being demolished. Anyone here want to hold off buying that new toy and help an entire family in Kashmir survive this tragedy instead? rt

[Mats Olsson.]

Friends, if only 30-35 of us could chip in $50 each, it would help the family. What do you all say? /Mats

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, you know, that is really not very much money at all considering what it means to them, and how little it would take for some of us to raise it. I ain't in the greatest financial shape myself, but if there is a way to get it to them in time, I'd chip in up to $50. The more participants we have, the less each of us would have to contribute. What do you say, guys?

[Tedster]

It'd be cool to have some sort of a benefit gig, too. If everyone that is gigging this weekend put some sort of "tip jar" out front and made frequent announcements that all of the "tip jar" money was going to help a foreign family, I wonder how much could be raised? Problem is...Jan 25th is like upon us!! Even if we all wired Ken money today, he still probably couldn't get the money to the family in time.

[Lee Flier]

It's possible, if we can get the money together in the next couple of days. I know local aid organizations in the area who would probably be able to help get the money to them, and we could wire it to one of them.

[Tedster]

Ken...the ball is in your court. Let us know what you'd like us to do.

[KenElevenShadows]

Wow. Uh, I don't know what to say...okay, gotta come up with something here. They are able to receive MoneyGrams, which I've done before. I've also wired money directly to their account, but that takes two weeks, so that's not going to work. The MoneyGram is instant. Unfortunately, they cannot receive PayPal, which is really quick. I've never done this before with a group of people and wired money before, so I don't know what to say, but I am just totally in awe of you guys right now... I believe that I can come up with at least $800, maybe a little more. That leaves $700, which would be fourteen people, assuming $50 each. My girlfriend already offered to contribute money as well, so maybe that would narrow it down to just $500-600 needed, or about 10-12 people (again, assuming $50 contributions). To keep the cost down, ONE MoneyGram would be better, since each MoneyGram costs something like $35 to send to Kashmir, which would be a colossal waste of money. I think that's how much it cost me the last time I sent $300 their way in September, and it may even increase as the amount of money sent increases. I guess what I could do then, is somehow collect the money, and then send it over, and then I'll scan the MoneyGram receipt and then slap that up on my web site so everyone can see our total overall donation. If anyone has any brighter ideas or better methods to collect and send the money, I am all ears at this point, but otherwise, I will be more than happy to collect and then send. I don't know what to say, everyone. I am completely blown away emotionally at this point... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OKAY, IN SUMMARY: 1. Unless someone comes up with a better idea, I will collect it via check or PayPal and then send it off. PayPal is quicker. For quickness' sake, I'll just go ahead and print the contact info here... Ken Lee/Eleven Shadows POB 642832 Los Angeles, CA 90064 or: elevenshadows@yahoo.com (for PayPal) 2. I will send a MoneyGram as soon as the total reaches $1500, which will hopefully be before January 23rd, just to be on the safe side. I will scan whatever receipt I get from MoneyGram and put it up on my web site. 3. If for some reason someone wants to make a contribution to Fayaz directly through MoneyGram instead of through me, I have no problem with that. Contact me at elevenshadows@yahoo.com. I will contact Fayaz and figure out the best way for him to receive multiple wires of money, exchange information, give you his exact name, etc. I think I've covered everything. Thank you.

[KenElevenShadows]

I just got an email from Fayaz: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dearest brother Ken, Thanks so much for your so much careing mail we are happy to know that some body other side of world Our so much loved part of family is equally shering our problims,thankyou so much brother for same and your encouragement.you have helped us lot,and I always asked whenever needed,we are all so much thankful for same and will remain always,you will always remain in our hearts and we always feel spritually with you.This time we all know it is big amount as per our standards it is Rs 73000 which means about $1500 to $1600 dollers is lot of money and you having so much problims of house your back which always makes us worry what you will be doing we all wish all comes well with you there.Please dont feel any thing we all are well awear of your situation your hard and tough life there. We have nothing so far not almost anything for eating hardly manage things,thanks so much to a friend a friend who allows to use his computer and I contact some people in Delhi and calcutta people who traveled to us and were staying with us couple of years ago during Amarnathji yatra and showed some intrest that time to buy our carpet but I had been writing to them and offering even better price now,but so far no massage no intrest from them.I have received no mail so far from them and I check almost every day if there is any mail from them. It looks to me and we all are so much feard and so much worried we might have to leave.last date is 25th january,pay or leave,this is been orderd by judge(magistrate)on14th january.If this happens brother cant explain to you how bad this will be for all of us by every means.so far not a single thing is sold.this is all the situation.much love from all of us. Fayaz and Family.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]It's possible, if we can get the money together in the next couple of days. I know local aid organizations in the area who would probably be able to help get the money to them, and we could wire it to one of them.[/b][/quote]If this is feasible, I would be totally receptive to this, so let us know ASAP. If we end up going with one of these aid organizations instead of me collecting it and someone has in the mean time sent me money via PayPal or whatever, I will simply forward that money on to the aid organization. I have just emailed Fayaz a request to send MoneyGram information, but also imploring him not to get his hopes up in case we fall far short of the mark. Thank you again, Lee and everyone. To those who don't know, this is definitely not a Nigerian bank scam, as I know this person and his family quite well!

[Brittanylips]

Forgive me for being cynical but..... This is a scam, no? This is not *that* much money. It can be raised fast and in person in Ken's living room, through individuals, businesses, foundations, or some mini "we are the world" musical fundraiser. My local supermarket frequently devotes a percentage of its daily sales to charities its customers care about -- go ask yours to do the same. But asking a handful of internet buddies to send $50 either won't make an impact, or encourage strangers to send additional bucks that might very well be used to buy new gear from NAMM for someone's studio. This reeks. Peee----U! There are many wonderful charitable organizations that help disadvantaged individuals in the U.S., Kashmir, and throughout the world. I encourage everyone to seek them out and donate generously. Peace, Love, and BrittanyLips

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Brittanylips: [b]Forgive me for being cynical but..... This is a scam, no? This is not *that* much money. [/b][/quote]This is NOT a scam. I know these people very well, and know them personally. You don't know me from Adam, so you have no reason to believe me. I respect that. That's fine. If you don't want to contribute, don't. Go buy yourself some more toys from NAMM, but please avoid the negativity, especially since I've already stated that it's not a scam in the message directly above yours. It's a trust issue among people who know me. It's that simple.

[Lee Flier]

Folks, for whatever it's worth (cuz quite a few of you know me and/or have done business with me), I've met Ken, he came to my gig in L.A. and we had dinner together, he has been a contributor to these forums for a long time and has been telling us stories about this family for a long time. I don't believe Ken is trying to scam us, and frankly if he is, he deserves to make a little money for all the time and effort he has put into this scam, I think it would have taken him less time to earn that much money doing honest work. :D Do a search in this forum on "Kashmir" if you want to know more. I'm quite familiar with that part of the world and there are definitely a lot of scammers there. I don't fall for scams easily, but I don't believe this is a scam on the part of the family either. This sounds just like something the governments in Kashmir or Nepal or anywhere in that region would do. As for giving to charitable organizations, there are charities who are not very trustworthy either, and some of the largest aid organizations are actually the least trustworthy and/or the least effective in getting your dollars where they can do good. I've done a lot of aid work in my life, and unfortunately, being scammed or having your work come to nothing is sometimes part of the price you pay for helping people who really need it - and that said, helping individual families and communities is, IMO, the way to go. If I donate money to anyone it's usually LOCAL grassroots organizations located in the area that needs help, OR individuals that I've met through traveling personally, or that other people I know (like Ken) have met through traveling. Believe me, this is a better use of your money than donating it to most charities. Sure I could be totally wrong about this particular case, and you might not give a rat's ass what I think anyway, but I'm willing to stick my neck out on this one. I have plenty of friends and family in L.A. who can hunt Ken down if we get wind that he's scammed us. :D And lots of other forum members live in L.A. and have met Ken too. If mistrust is all that's keeping you from wanting to contribute, perhaps we can get an independent party to handle the transaction such as a local aid organization. Please speak up on this thread or PM me, if you'd prefer to do it this way. Ken, one other thing you may want to ask your friends: do they have neighbors who may make trouble for them if they get their hands on this amount of money? You probably know since you've travelled there, that there's a great deal of jealousy that goes on whenever someone is more fortunate than others in the community. If your friends' land is saved but others lose theirs, or if they don't have a safe channel for getting the money to the right hands, there could be a lot of trouble, their property could be vandalized or the money stolen, etc. Please make sure they've thought this part through. I will contact a couple of aid agencies by email and see what they think, too.

[deanmass]

I think the paypal is a great idea, but they tag you a percentages as well. I don't know Lee or Ken, but I have seen enough of Ken's site to think that maybe I'll cough up $50.00. He seems like he has way more credibility to lose and would not risk it. Let me know what method we are using to round up the cash. I actually just got a raise at work, so if Ken DOES turn out to be a scam artist, wtf...I mean, I have dicked away $50.00 on video game rentals for my kids in the last few weeks. Good karma for me.... Someone email me the final money recipient. deanmass@mac.com

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]Ken, one other thing you may want to ask your friends: do they have neighbors who may make trouble for them if they get their hands on this amount of money? I will contact a couple of aid agencies by email and see what they think, too.[/b][/quote]No, there's not going to be a problem. Actually, I've met the neighbor that has houseboats next door to the left of the family that I know, and they are really nice. They are always coming over, often climbing over the side of the houseboat, to say hi and to hang out. The others, I don't know, but as my previous posts have suggested, the Kashmiris are really nice people. Most would simply see that the family hasn't moved from their property. I've also helped them out in the past with the wedding and a couple of other things, so I would imagine that if there were going to be a problem, it would have manifested itself already. This is not about me, folks, and in fact, I did not initiate this. I've been posting about this family for years, often sharing the emails with people who are interested. I've had pictures of Kashmir and the Khuroo family, who run Ajanta Palace Houseboat, up on my web site since 1997. All I care about is helping them. If you don't trust me, that's cool. Don't send money! Just don't accuse me or them of scamming because I really don't dig the negativity when you have no proof that they or me are scamming and I have been posting about them for years here on this very forum. If people feel more comfortable, we can funnel the money through an aid agency and have them MoneyGram the money. Whatever it is, it's gotta be pretty darn fast, though. Had I known that there would even be interest in doing this, I would have mentioned this at the beginning of the month when Fayaz wrote to me and told me about their predicament. I was writing this more to share my frustration and sorrow that I couldn't dig up enough money to help them on my own. Thank you to everyone again.

[KenElevenShadows]

BTW, I should also add that the family did not ask me for money, especially knowing that I've forked over a few thousand in medical expenses recently because of my ruptured disc (which incidentally is getting much better!). They told me what was happening, and I have been writing back saying that I wanted to help, but at no time did they ever ask for money.

[KenElevenShadows]

FYI (PayPal): One of my friends just tried paying me through PayPal, but I guess it was through some sort of credit card payment which requires an upgrade. I didn't look carefully enough, evidently, but got this prompt from PayPal that asked if I wanted my account upgraded. I said no ("Deny" or whatever the button said), and then it denied my friend's payment! Greeeeeeeeat! I don't think I'm very good at this so far... I guess if you send it via PayPal, try and see if you can send it in such a way that I don't have to upgrade the account because otherwise I think it shaves a small amount off the incoming amount. If for some reason that isn't possible, then I will upgrade my account. Here's what it says on the web site, which I don't fully understand (puhhhhhh....): "Personal Accounts are free, but cannot accept credit card payments. Premier and Business Accounts are charged either the Standard or Merchant rate based on volume. All Premier and Business Accounts start at the Standard Rate until they qualify for the Merchant Rate. Fees can be offset by 1.5% when you spend money with your PayPal Debit Card as part of the PayPal Preferred Program. Currency of Payment: U.S. Dollars Merchant Rate: 2.2% + $.30 Standard Rate: 2.9% + $.30"

[Tedster]

Reminds me of a story... An old man was walking along the beach. There were hundreds of starfish washed up. They would die within hours. A young boy was walking along, picking up starfish one at a time and tossing them back into the sea. The old man watched for a few minutes, and then walked up to the boy and said, "Son, you're trying, but there must be a thousand starfish on this beach, and what you're doing is so small it can't possibly matter". The boy thought for a minute, picked up another starfish, tossed it into the sea and said "It mattered to that one." I'm going to try to help.

[Lee Flier]

Ken and all, PayPal does not charge you, or require you to upgrade your account, if you send money direct from your bank account or PayPal account. If you use a credit card, they require the recipient to upgrade the account, plus he gets charged for it. Tedster: great story. A major cause of depression among aid workers is the inevitable feeling of futility, that they couldn't possibly ever do "enough." That story was sometimes told by the "veterans" to snap people out of it.

[Mats Olsson.]

PS Just to make one thing clear here: I believe that I was the first person to suggest that we try to help by donating money. This is the first time I participate in charity with people I haven't met in real life. I have not met Ken or anyone of you North American guys in real life, I have got to know you here at the forums during my 2++ years here. I am not a rich person by any standard, I take things like trust and charity very seriously. I trust Ken, if he say this is legit I believe him. If someone feels different, fine with me, no problem. Now, I have a little problem, how can I send my contribution from Sweden to Ken so that it gets there fast enough? FWIW I do not have a Pay Pal account and I'm not sure if it is possible for me to set one up this fast. I will try to help. /Mats

[Paul Berolzheimer]

I'd like to vouch for Ken too. I can't say I know him well, but we've had several meals together and have corresponded via this forum & e-mail a number of times, and I certainly trust him. At the very least he's way not stupid enough to trash his credibility over a measly $1500, I mean it's not like he's asking for tens of thousands here. Besides that, He's obviously someone who cares deeply about humanity & creativity, and honesty just goes along with that in my experience.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Mats_Olsson: [b]Now, I have a little problem, how can I send my contribution from Sweden to Ken so that it gets there fast enough? FWIW I do not have a Pay Pal account and I'm not sure if it is possible for me to set one up this fast.[/b][/quote]Thanks! Thanks to everyone else, too. Uh, to answer your question, I have no clue...sorry! If you want to send money directly to him, maybe you can email me at elevenshadows@yahoo.com (I don't check the other email nearly as often) and when Fayaz replies with the specifics, I can share that with you. Other than that, I dunno. But thank you!! WARNING: TANGENT APPROACHING!!! :) And that starfish story -- well, that's why I try and help. This is my friend, and I always try to help my friends. But I try and do a little bit with other things, like Captive Daughters and Los Angeles Friends of Tibet, too (non-profit organizations - the first one tries to stop sexual trafficking of children, while the second one tries to help the plight of Tibetans because China has occupied their country and killed 1/5th of them). I mean, I don't know what kind of an impact I make, but even if it's a small one, that's pretty good already. We are also trying to save the house and two other houses that we live in. A developer purchased them and is going to demolish them eventually, but we are trying to save these houses. They are really beautiful 1920s Spanish/Mediterranean duplexes, one of which was designed by a noted L.A. architect named Allen Siple (President of AIA, featured in Architectural Digest, created over 200 structures, including some for movie stars, etc.). I initiated this with two neighbors, and got really overwhelmed with it when thankfully, a lot of other people started coming forward and really helping, including two lawyers. They even got in touch with Allen Siple's daughter, and so now one of the homes is being considered for historical preservation!!! It was a LOT of work, and my girlfriend and next-door neighbor did a lot of research that was required in submitting a proper application to the historical preservation society. Between this and recovering from the back thing and working, I've been exhausted, but just grateful to be at least mobile again and able to do things after being laid up for so long. Went for a hike today as well - it feels so good to be able to do that again... Anyway, please excuse about the tangent, but I'm sure you are used to that by now when I am typing or talking . I'm gonna go do stuff, but had to blab again. Thank you so much for everything here. I am really overwhelmed with people's generosity. If it does end up that we don't funnel things through an aid agency as per Lee's suggestion AND it ends up that we simply don't have enough money to come close to the sum needed, I'll return the money (assuming it was sent to me in the first place). I have at least US$800, and my girlfriend said that she would kick in some (I haven't asked how much yet), so we more than halfway there. Thanks.

[KenElevenShadows]

Sorry, have to write again....sheeesh!! Paul, thanks! The reason why it's only US$1500 is because the exchange rate is about 50 rupees to the dollar. You could seriously live/travel in India for a year on US$1500. Land is cheap there for us - not for them, but for us. If you hunt around at real estate in India, you'll find it's absurdly cheap. You can, for instance, find really nice houses on or near the beach in Goa (a really nice area in India with gorgeous beaches) that have four bedrooms and 3-4 bathrooms for US$40,000, so you can just imagine what a dinky plot of land in war-torn Kashmir goes for. And we're talking about 8 years of payments, not the whole cost of the land. But as cheap as it is to a lot of us fortunate enough to live in places with strong economices, it's very expensive to them, especially Kashmiris who cannot get jobs. Why the hell I'm looking for a house in L.A. when I can purchase one for that price in Goa is beyond me....

[Lee Flier]

Mats, I think you can set up a PayPal account in time. It doesn't cost anything so you could try it.