coren Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 has anyone tried that "perfect pitch" program thats always being advertised in magazines? ive always been very skeptical of such ads but i feel in an adventurous mood.. and anything that helps advance music is worth it.. right? so has anyone tried it? crap or real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulliver Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Never tried it, never felt the need for it. Perfect pitch would be a perfect "solution" for those dealing with cover songs (might help to find right chords a lot quicker). One thing I know for sure... it doesn't help composing good music. For this - one must have good imagination (and taste). Besides, that smiling guy on the ad... annoyed me quite a bit. :D I am back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovepusher Sly Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I have a friend who couldn't sing worth a damn. He bought the program and improved quite a bit. Then he lost the CD's and has been stuck right where he left off. But he did improve drastically. Sly :cool: Whasineva ehaiz, ehissgot ta be Funky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Yeah, I bought it and I think it's crap. Basically, in the course, the guy changes what "perfect pitch" is. Sorry, I don't have more details since it was a while ago. I lent it to my bass player, too, but I don't think he got to try it yet. aka riffing Double Post music: Strip Down http://rimspeed.com http://loadedtheband.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBBPaul Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Gulliver: [b] Besides, that smiling guy on the ad... annoyed me quite a bit. :D [/b][/quote]The guy in the ad annoyed me enough too to not even look at it. I did have a music teacher back in the mid-70's that could tune a guitar entirely by ear with no reference and get it spot on. So I guess as a concept it does certainly exist. I've never felt the need for it myself. My ears ain't perfect but I can certainly hear sour notes. Our new and improved website Today's sample tune: Lonesome One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coren Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Gulliver: [b] Besides, that smiling guy on the ad... annoyed me quite a bit. :D [/b][/quote]lol yah me to. i had a feeling it was BS... my ears are pretty good anyways. thanx for the feedback! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovepusher Sly Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 But he has a money back guarantee. Sly :cool: Whasineva ehaiz, ehissgot ta be Funky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisaiken Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I knew a guy in high school that had perfect pitch,(he could tune his bass by ear and it would be dead on) it was great for him in many of the obvious ways.But I remember later when he was singing in an accapella jazz group in college the group would slowly go flat (which is quite natural) and it drove him nuts.Amazing talent,but not without it's pitfalls. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 [quote]Perfect pitch would be a perfect "solution" for those dealing with cover songs (might help to find right chords a lot quicker).[/quote]Regular ear-training is actually more effective IMO. With Perfect Pitch you may be able to recognize individual notes more quickly but it doesn't help you hear how they relate to other notes. You still have to learn to hear Harmony through traditional methods. Perfect Pitch is a curse for most musicians...it gets in the way. Don't take my word for it...I'm loosely quoting Jeff Berlin. He has perfect pitch, when I went to his clinic he went on for long while about how he wished he didn't have perfect pitch. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip OKeefe Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Perfect pitch does exist. Can it be learned? I really have no Idea. In my case, it's something I've been able to do all of my life. When I was a kid and someone sang a popular song to me acapella, I just "knew" when "that's not how it goes"... sure, they might have had the melody right and the lyrics, but (as I now know), they were singing in a different key than the original recording - but I had no idea of what "keys" were back then (because I had no musical education at that early point in my life). I can just naturally "hear" or, if you will, recall pitches from memory at will. I prefer to describe it as somewhat analogous to an aural "photographic memory". Think of one of your favorite songs that you know the key of. Sit quietly sometime, when you haven't been listening to any music for a while, and try to recall that song in your head. Can you "hear" it? Can you then hum the guitar riff or the main melody line? Okay, now hit the tonic (main / root chord) of the song on a guitar or keyboard... were you on it? Or better yet, play a CD of the song... is it as you "heard it" in your head when you were sitting quietly, or in a different key than you "remembered"? Okay, this isn't a scientific test, and some songs are "in the cracks" (sharp or flat when referenced to A = 440 Hz standard tuning), but it kind of explains what I was able to do at an early age. When I started learning music theory in Jr High school, I learned what the "names" of the pitches I was able to hear in my head were. So while theory is something you're not born with (drats!), pitch is, at least in my case. I can't say that it CAN'T be learned, but I know it does exist and it can be something you're born with. BTW, the younger guy in those David Burge (sp?) perfect pitch ads annoys the crud out of me too. What's with the poser guitar hero pose? Then he's "Mr Sensitive" folkie? Then a keyboardist? And it's always the same guy... is it Burge's son or what? WHO IS THAT ANNOYING GUY? :D Not to mention David kind of looks like / reminds me of one of those cult guys who shows up on your doorstep and wakes you up with an unnaturally "cheery" attitude at 8 AM on Saturday morning after you did a late night gig on Friday night... "HI!!! I'm David Burge... and I represent to Universal Church of Pitch Awareness Consciousness! I'm here because I want to share with you the teachings of our Guru, Master Baloney Pitchoni..." BTW David, lose the beard. It doesn't make you look any hipper. Some people are terminally UNhip. You qualify. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Phil hit the nail on the head. You have to "visualize" pitch/instrumentation from your memories to develop "perfect pitch." Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joegerardi Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 There are two different things being discussed here: "Perfect Pitch," (also called "Absolute Pitch") and "Relative Pitch." "Perfect Pitch" is one can identify any note played, and "Relative Pitch" is where one can identify a tone, but only in relation to it's previous tone. The beauty of perfect Pitch to a composer it that he/she can hear the song in their head, and immediately write it down, or play it. To the player, it makes figuring out songs a breeze. I remember yonks ago when I was playing out. We were rehearsing "Bad Love" by Clapton, and I just couldn't get the first chord. A guitarist friend with perfect pitch walked in, and very casually said: "Play a D9." He could also tune his guitar, by ear, in under 10 seconds. It's a great talent to have. ..Joe Setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88, Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Alesis QSR, Roland M-GS64 Yamaha KX-88, KX76, Roland Super-JX, E-Mu Longboard 61, Kawai K1II, Kawai K4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaz Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I may not have perfect "absolute" pitch, but I do have perfect relative pitch! :D Haven Music Productions Tampa, FL www DOT havenmp DOT com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Capasso Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I've only got relatively good relative pitch. The guy I knew with absolute pitch would be annoyed by fire sirens ("it's F#, but it's off a bit"). Bryan Beller mentioned it in his last column for Bass Player (something like "you skip my column to get to the perfect pitch ad"). Tom www.stoneflyrocks.com Acoustic Color Be practical as well as generous in your ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground. - Theodore Roosevelt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by joegerardi: [b]There are two different things being discussed here: "Perfect Pitch," (also called "Absolute Pitch") and "Relative Pitch." "Perfect Pitch" is one can identify any note played, and "Relative Pitch" is where one can identify a tone, but only in relation to it's previous tone. The beauty of perfect Pitch to a composer it that he/she can hear the song in their head, and immediately write it down, or play it. To the player, it makes figuring out songs a breeze. I remember yonks ago when I was playing out. We were rehearsing "Bad Love" by Clapton, and I just couldn't get the first chord. A guitarist friend with perfect pitch walked in, and very casually said: "Play a D9." He could also tune his guitar, by ear, in under 10 seconds. It's a great talent to have. ..Joe[/b][/quote]This is where people who haven't studied ear training get confused. I can do all of the things you've mentioned above but I definitly don't have "perfect pitch". Actually I'd like to say that 'perfect pitch' is really bad terminology for what we're discussing. It isn't perfect pitch...'narrow pitch' might be a better definition...I mean your ability to hear notes is narrow...you can only recognize A440 or close to it...that to me is narrow pitch not perfect at all. [quote]The beauty of perfect Pitch to a composer it that he/she can hear the song in their head, and immediately write it down, or play it. To the player, it makes figuring out songs a breeze.[/quote]I can write it down in all 12 keys. I can also transcribe a song being played on an old cassette deck that plays slow. I don't have "Perfect Pitch". If I can play a pitch on a piano first for reference...you can then play any 7 notes simultaneously and I'll name every single one of them by ear. That is not 'perfect pitch' and most people with 'perfect pitch' have trouble with this. Getting the point yet? I recorded a guitar track last week...I didn't bother tuning the guitar...it sounded 'unique' to me. Ends up the whole guitar was a little more than a half-tone flat. I liked the track so I detuned my keyboard to match and overdubbed some parts. People who have "Perfect Pitch" find they can't do this because they can't focus on the pitches...their ears/perception are narrow. P.S. It seems like this is discussed at least once a year...I always participate and never feel like anyone understood what I was talking about when it's over. My advice FWIW...if you want ears that totally kick everyone's ass...take a proper ear training course...avoid all perfect pitch scams, they aren't what you're looking for. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I can sometimes nail what key a particular sound is in, or what key some song might be in, but not all the time. I think in my case, it has to be a fairly mundane key. I don't think it has to do with any of the two. Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I can't give an opinion on the lesson series, either, but I suspect they teach relative pitch. There are a lot of accurate statements here about relative pitch & perfect pitch here but I think there are still some cloudy issues.(& I'll clear them all up :rolleyes: ) It's generally recognized that "perfect" pitch is an innate trait that can't be learned...or at least not past a young age. As said [i]relative[/i] pitch is a more practical skill because that's actually what you use in performing music...& that can be learned by practice. Recognizing the notes or chords (& their relationships) in a piece are all things that are part of relative pitch, as is tuning an instrument. I don't think it would help you be able to instantly write what you heard unless you were able to recognize the internal structure of a piece of music---& that's an element of relative pitch. Perfect pitch doesn't have anything to do with [i]musical knowledge[/i]. A mechanic might have perfect pitch & be able to recognize when a motor or other device was operating at the correct speed...but he might have no clue why (or if) one or another combination of notes sounded good. Perfect pitch could also be a drawback in many ways. Imagine that you were required to play in a setting that was off from accepted concert pitch...everything might just sound wrong, no matter what. Or what happens as you age & your hearing begins to loose it's upper range? Does everything sound wrong against your mental image of the proper pitch? [On the other hand it might be a great skill for a musicologist working in the field without a recorder!] Lastly, I'll mention that research [see the book [b]Music, the Brain & Ecstasy[/b] by Robert Jourdain] shows that a lot of people with "perfect" pitch actually are capable in certain ranges but not others or have very finely honed relative pitch that they keep in condition through daily use as musicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylver Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 People with perfect pitch go crazy when you try to play detuned. I have a friend who can't even LISTEN to music that's detuned. He says Hendrix just sounds wrong. I really don't know what to put here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWBass Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Nope! Already have perfect pitch! ;) www.myspace.com/thefunkfather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Our bass player (who also sings most of the leads) has perfect pitch. We have some songs that start off with a capella singing, and he doesn't need to hear a reference note or chord first. He tunes his bass without a tuner and it's always on pitch with my guitar which I tune with a tuner. And yeah it was something he was born with. I think he does get annoyed by odd keys or detuned stuff sometimes, but luckily he likes my occasional open G tuning or dropping the low E to D. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 I'm curious: how many people here *can't* tune a guitar in under 10 minutes....? Does everyone here "hear" music in their mind at all times? I have *never* not had music in my mind for longer than an instant. In fact, I *can't* *not* "hear" music, literally. I've tried, and there isn't an "off" switch. The only time I think I'm not "hearing" it internally is when I'm hearing it physically. This is like one of those "do you dream in color?" conversations; I've never NOT dreamt in color. So I wonder "are there people walking around in silence?"? I think it's really a matter of how much "buffer memory" you've got. Some people seem to have none. Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 It takes me 30 seconds to 1 minute to tune a guitar. Well, maybe less, if it's not that out of tune. :D And yes I hear music in my head virtually all the time. And yeah I've always dreamed in color. :) About a year ago we played a gig where one of the other bands sharing the bill was... let's just say one of the worst bands I've seen in a long time. They were a 3 piece band, but the guitar player (and I use that term very loosely) spent 20 minutes tuning his guitar and it STILL wasn't in tune. So he switched guitars. Spent another 10-15 minutes trying to tune THAT one. Never got IT in tune either. Ended up switching back to the first one and playing it even though it still wasn't in tune. Nor was it in tune with the bass player. Oh, and did I mention he did all his tuning with the amp turned up so we all had to listen to it? Then when they actually started playing it was just godawful, and the crowd was struck dumb with disbelief. The guitarist ended up mooning the audience. Sad thing was these guys aren't even local, they drove 350 miles or so just so they could suck here instead of in their home town. You think these guys could be taught perfect pitch? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc: [b] [quote]Perfect pitch would be a perfect "solution" for those dealing with cover songs (might help to find right chords a lot quicker).[/quote]Regular ear-training is actually more effective IMO. With Perfect Pitch you may be able to recognize individual notes more quickly but it doesn't help you hear how they relate to other notes. You still have to learn to hear Harmony through traditional methods. Perfect Pitch is a curse for most musicians...it gets in the way. Don't take my word for it...I'm loosely quoting Jeff Berlin. He has perfect pitch, when I went to his clinic he went on for long while about how he wished he didn't have perfect pitch.[/b][/quote]Steve is right. Relative pitch is more practical, and it's something that most people can learn with some effort and a little patience. No fancy, expensive CD programs needed. I heard a discussion of perfect pitch recently as it applies to tonal languages, like Mandarin. They taped native Mandarin speakers saying words on different days, and the pitch of the words was identical each day. Mandarin is so melodic in nature that Chinese television has to print subtitles on music videos. When the "tones" of the language are modified to conform with a melody, it becomes unintelligible. Anyway, the research for this project uncovered the fact that musicians with perfect pitch started playing an instrument or became involved with music in some way at a very early age, usually age four or earlier. Musicians who started studying music at a later age typically don't have perfect pitch. Any thoughts from you perfect pitchers out there? At what age did your involvement with music begin? The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunny Knutson Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 [b]Topic: "perfect pitch" [/b] I thought this was going to be a thread about Nolan Ryan. :D Hey, [b]Chip[/b], you were asking about whether it takes anyone here more than 10 minutes to tune their guitar. I think that may have been in reference to this quote: [quote]Originally posted by joegerardi: [b]He could also tune his guitar, by ear, in under 10 seconds.[/b][/quote]10 [b]seconds[/b] is fairly impressive. 10 [b]minutes[/b], OTOH, is about eight or nine minutes too long, IMO. It takes [i]me[/i] about 20-30 seconds to tune my guitar, on a bad day. I have "imperfect pitch," in that sometimes I can nail an A440 right on, and sometimes I'm as much as a half-step away. I am truly glad that I don't have perfect pitch, though. I think that would get annoying, considering how much sloppy rock'n'roll I listen to. Relative pitch will do me just fine, thank you. ;) And, yes, [b]Chip[/b], there is always music on in my head. I have to work really hard to turn it off! https://bunny.bandcamp.com/ https://theystolemycrayon.bandcamp.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Music plays in my head at all times. I don't know what the actual pitches are, but I know where each note fits into the key. I can write this music down in any key without the aid of a musical instrument. If it's not the key that I'm hearing it in, I can easily transpose it later. Typically, I write music in a shorthand notation showing notes as the intervals from the root. I can't see any value whatsoever in knowing the actual notes. I can play one note on the piano or on a pitch pipe to get that information, but who needs it? The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip_dup1 Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 numerous times, most recently a couple days ago, I had a store person tune a guitar with a pitchfork, so I could try it out. It was off enough that I had to retune it. The same thing has happened with store people using tuning boxes. I was at an event where some asked me to `give us a concert G`, half-joking but also to put me on the spot. I hummed a note, they started giggling and I said, `oh wait, that`s an E.` The next note was on. I don`t think I`ve ever remembered a song in the wrong key. But neither of these are perfect pitch, as far as I know. usually I don`t need a reference note, but sometimes I have an annoying habit, if I`m not paying attention, to tune my guitar to an Eb at home. However, all the strings are in tune with each other. I usually can`t pick the key of an ambient sound unless I really think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNC Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 You can develope "perfect pitch" by listening to any particular (but you need MANY) songs over and over (in the same key, for each song repsectivley). Then when you hear a note, yo can compare it with a known note in your head. I guess it is actually relative pitch, but it can be called 'perfect' since you are using no audiable reference point. It works fairly well with ALOT of practice and using notes that are played very clearly. EX: I know the forth note of Metallica's Master of Pupptets is a G (it is held a bit). Then you 'hum it in your head'. Another one I use alot is the D from Bach's Bouree (also the Gethro Tull version). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by dBunny: [b]under 10 seconds.[/b][/quote]10 [b]seconds[/b] is fairly impressive. 10 [b]minutes[/b], OTOH, is about eight or nine minutes too long, IMO. It takes [i]me[/i] about 20-30 seconds to tune my guitar, on a bad day.[/qb][/quote] Ah, yes. I suppose I saw that wrong because I'm thinking "it takes as long as it takes to tune". In other words, you turn the key until it's in tune... How does it take "longer"? "10 minutes" is relative to how wacked out the guitar is.... [b] have "imperfect pitch," in that sometimes I can nail an A440 right on, and sometimes I'm as much as a half-step away. I am truly glad that I [/b] I have "perfectly tempermental" pitch: I can tell what pitch a car horn is suddenly for no reason, but if cornered I lose it and resort to relative pitch. But if I'm not thinking about it, it's there. It's a sensation: I *know* I'm hearing an open G, right? Because I can *feel* the reflex of playing the chord to make that sound. Someone raised on a non-duplicating octave instrument like a piano has only one place where that one note occurs, and if they've played it since they were kids - perfect pitch. You're not born with it. You're born with the potential capability and aquire it. An infant can't be born knowing that in the 21st century a concert A is 440hz instead of 442hz; and an infant born in India isn't laying there picking out 12 tone standard tuning pitches by name when he's hearing some 14 tone raga. It's aquired reflex. [b]And, yes, [b]Chip[/b], there is always music on in my head. I have to work really hard to turn it off![/QB] But you *can* turn it off? As in, you're sitting there and nothing is playing....? (sitting here trying to do that) Wow, no, that's really impossible! It's like passing out; right now Mike Landau's _Tales from the Bulge_ is "playing"; if I concentrate on the fan of the portable heater next to me, it blocks it out, reduces the "internal volume", but I can't make it stop. If I get closer to the fan I can at some point "switch" my attention to the fan, but it's because the fan is so loud at that point I can't concentrate on anything else. So my question is to Dan: if you're "hearing" the music, how are you not hearing the actual notes? I used to be in a cover band, and for me "practice" was listening to the songs enough so I could remember the whole thing and then just playing that. If I'm not familiar enough with the song, I won't "hear" the entire song - but what I do hear I can take apart. My post in Massenburg's forum about lossy compression algorithms in the mind relate to this; when I'm in "perfect pitch" mode I'm not analysing the timbre/quality of the sound, that is "switched off" a bit. If I focus my concentration on a very minute instant of the sound, like just one note out of a 32nd note run, I can isolate that pitch but it starts to lose "detail", like zooming in on a waveform of an ensemble performance... So I would think there's various ways the mind reconfigures itself - different "plug-ins" - that gets applied to one's "buffer memory". "Perfect pitch" is just another plug-in that can be "aquired" IMO. I'd really like to see the source code for the human mind. Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coren Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 i have music in my head all the time.. if im trying to learn a song i can usually get it before it ends, and it rarley if ever takes more than three times to properly find a note... i was just wondering about the magazine ad, just getting nervous cause im slightly out of practise (8 months no playing anything) and im auditioning for mount royals jazz program.. in addition to many tests, one is they play 2 pieces on a piano and i transpose them by ear and give them written copys. i dunno, 9 years playing and pretty good ear but that sounds iffy to me. maybe the pieces are rediculously simple and im building it up to much.... but thanks for the info.. did alot of this in rec. school. so for more discussion, who here has "golden ears" (being able to hear 1dB or less differnce in between frequencys) ??? ive only heared of one person so far.. bob ludwig. if perfect pitch is a burden id still like to have that.. or maybe itd be anoyying to :freak: thanks ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtr Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Hey all, Back to the original question...... About those "annoying guy" courses - I teach and am always getting as much material as I can to get new ideas to help students with, so I have both of his courses. I have the perfect pitch course, and he is equally annoying to listen to as he is to look at! It is a lot of "touchy feely" stuff that makes you feel like you are attending a new-age "I'm OK, you're OK" seminar. BUT.... I also have the "Ear training - relative pitch" course, and it is actually very good. A lot of good information, but he talks too much. Quite proud of himself I think. - So, I wouldn't recomend the Perfect one, but the relative one is good. Was that all relative? jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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