Not even close,......but eh....

[dnile]

Perhaps another reason why entirely new - and non keyboard - instruments have a hard time catching on is because a new instrument takes years of dedication to master. Noone really wants to make a major commitment to an instrument that noone's heard of.

 

I mean, people know what you're talking about if you say you're a keyboardist, saxophonist or a guitarist. But how many people are going to want a kazwoodlist in their band?

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

Tom... what you wrote above is utter rubbish.

 

Digital instruments can be programmed to produce a variety of sounds yes, and yes, they can produce good sounds. But they cannot be programmed to produce "any sound we can think of"...

First of all, I said MOST any sound you can think of. (Notice the disclaimer.)

 

 

http://homepage.mac.com/cjdow/.cv/cjdow/Sites/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2005-10-08%2011.07.37%20-0700/Image-30B7936D382111DA.jpg-thumb_269_202.jpg

 

This is Seth (garrafon) playing his keyboards.

 

The caption under the picture reads:

 

Seth jams even more....dig the red keyboard, it makes all sounds known to man.

 

So there you have it. Case closed.

 

Tom

 

 

PS... Don't argue with me Richard. I'm a little bit crazy and your words circle around and around in my head long after they're written. It might be days later, but I'll come back and take another stab at attempting to prove that I'm right. If I'm wrong, I'll simply go off somewhere and have another beer.

 

Ummmmmm, I drink A LOT of beer.

 

Hey Richard. Love ya... Mean it.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Gas, it's cool, bro

 

I was thinking that I might have been too negative, and that was before Ken's recent post.

 

Not wanting to be negative, I think that digital synths are very useful, but they are going through growing pains. I think that to be really useful as performance instruments, the ui will need improving. Not that I have any real suggestions of what that ui should be, mind you. I just have a vague sense of what's wrong, and what might be possible. Look at a guitar for instance, or an acoustic piano, or a saxophone. The UI's are very simple, yet they are very expressive instruments, more expressive (as performance instruments) than synths.

 

Then again, it could be my shortcoming. When I listen to Joe Zawinul, he manages to be very expressive with synths, I never was able to figure out how to get there. On the other hand, maybe that's because I started out on DX7, then went to M1, then to various other digital, sample-based instruments. I wish I had started with a good analog synth. At the moment i don't play synth much, but if I ever do again, I think I'll just seek out a good analog monosynth and just work on that. Those are the kind of synths Joe learned on. I wish there were more developement in that area (analog), and on making the ui even more simple and direct.

 

I wish I had time to proofread this and edit it, but I don't.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

I wish I had time to proofread this and edit it, but I don't.

[BluMunk]

Originally posted by garrafon:

Interesting points, and it does not only apply to keyed instruments. When was the last time someone invented a new instrument - not a new digitally capable computer, but a new instrument (saxaphone, clarinet, harpsichord, guitar, etc.)?

According to a pub quiz game I go to every week, the steel drum is the most recently created instrument. Take that as you will.

[BluMunk]

Oh, and let me also add that I was pretty floored by that answer. But, I suppose anyone coming up with that question would probably have the wrong answer. They probably got it out of the encyclopedia or something.

[evilredhed]

Back in the days, folks would get a Hammond organ (in church) because they couldn't afford a pipe organ. And pretty soon, some fine Gospel music would be coming out of those babies. Next thing, blues & jazz players hear about how cool they sound and don't give a rip they don't sound like a pipe organ.

That's very interesting to me. How long does it take for a 'new' instrument to catch on? Maybe there is an of instrument out there today that nobody knows the potential of, and 10 years from now we will have a great perspective on what was sincerly revolutionary?

[Dave Horne]

Instruments that didn't do that well ....

 

saxophone tuned in C or C melody saxophone.

 

This instrument is used (unfortunately) by various musical marching groups on New Year's Day in Philadelphia's Mummers Parade. That was one of the reasons I moved away from Philadelphia.

[DirtyRubberDuck]

Well, maybe it is because inventing a new instrument nowadays is much more complex. All the obvious, mechanical ideas are used up, and any new instrument designed today has to be MUCH more complicated than turning a mechanical gear next to a coil and amplifying the result.

 

I don't think there is much of a market for a new instrument now, either. Who needs one when we haven't fully explored the possibilities of the instruments we already have? Plus, we'd have to learn how to play it, tweak it, etc. I think it's just a case of society catching up with technology.

 

DRD

[DirtyRubberDuck]

evilredhead,

 

It's "Loser's whine about doing their best. winners go home and f**k the prom queen"

 

DRD

[Garrafon]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

This is Seth (garrafon) playing his keyboards.

 

The caption under the picture reads:

 

Seth jams even more....dig the red keyboard, it makes all sounds known to man.

 

So there you have it. Case closed.

 

Tom

 

In defense of something (I'm not really sure what), I would like to point out that my friend who wrote that caption was referring to my Nord Electro.

 

Now, that brings us full circle. As those of us in the "know" know, it is the likes of the Electro that spawned this debate in the first place - instruments that merely mimic other instruments.

 

The Electro does not make all sounds known to man, just attempts (with good success) to reproduce those sounds known to all men as of 1977 (inclusive of my friend who wrote the caption on my picture).

 

And, now I shall disclose my deep-secreted hypocrasy. In all my years of playing keys, I really have only been interested in those that best emulate the piano, the Rhodes, Wurly, and Hammond sounds. Sure, from time to time I've played a "synth" sound, but only because they were recreations (or attempted recreations) of strings, or horns, etc.

 

Aside from goofing around with a Moog I owned many moons ago or playing with the knobs on other keyboards in the sanctuary of my home studio, I do not play "new" sounds on my keyboards.

 

That being said, to mine ears, I find the sounds of an "acoustic" instrument (piano, guitar, flute, oboe, violin, etc.) much more soothing and musically appealing than almost any "new" digitally recreated sound I've heard.

 

White noise - is that all sounds known to man played at the same time, much like white is the combination of all colors and black the absence thereof?

 

 

Sooooo......I'm sure there must be some points in there somewhere

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by garrafon:

Sooooo......I'm sure there must be some points in there somewhere

Yep. The point being that HIPNESS is not lost on YOU!

 

Hi Seth

[Garrafon]

LOL!!!!! You'll notice that I never participated in the thread about staying hip...and with good reason Now you know why....hehe.

 

Cheers!!! Hey, why isn't there a little "smiley" icon with a guy holding up a foaming beer glass? There certainly should be!!!! And if there was one, I'd put it here (smiley guy with foaming beer glass here)

[Phred]

Will these do?

 

http://emoticons.zasx.com/emoticonimages/Wild_Head.pnghttp://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/beer.gifhttp://emoticons.zasx.com/emoticonimages/Molson_Canadian.png

[Garrafon]

Yeah! Sweet! Where did ya get those? An extra cheers for you Phred for that one!

[Bartolomeo]

Interesting thread.

 

There are many classes of instruments where each individual instrument is unlike any other. Violin, cello, pipe organ, and to a lesser extent piano.

 

Regarding whole new types of instruments, the more or less standard set of instruments that are part of western music today are representative of a highly evolved art. It's hard to improve on something that's already great, unless some new technology comes along that opens up the possibilities.

 

Most of the instruments from the 1600s were unchanged up until the industrial revolution, though the piano and organ continued to evolve somewhat. The industrial revolution brought us the modern piano, modern brass instruments, the saxophone, and a few others. The post-WW-II era brought us the first amplified instruments, leading to a process of evolution that ended with the polyphonic synth.

 

The innovation now is in production software, not in instruments for live playing. And drum loops and the like. We all look down our noses at that stuff, just like accomplished pianists looked down their noses at B3s and synths. A generation is listening to hip-hop, and perhaps the "instruments" involved in its creation will become a part of music.

 

I think it's interesting that there was no real meaningful development of musical instruments between the early 1970s and the beginning of the sampling era. I suppose there was MIDI.

[Phred]

To see where they come from: generic of OS.

Hit quote on my post and see how I did it.

 

or alternately

 

Using windows:

right click on each icon and check the properties - that will show you the location.

 

Using the mac:

Throw it out and get a PC, then come look and follow instructions above.

 

Using unix:

type some stuff something like - &grep *.gif >> devnull |cat $1 > output | exec xargs {}

[ClaviaMech]

When was the last time someone invented successful a new instrument?

What makes it "succcessful"?

 

I'll venture two things ... a killer player that has already achieved recognition or success on a "standard" instrument (Levin & Chapman stick, Emerson & Moog Modular), and/or a hit song with such a strange, but "hooky" sound that it draws attention to the odd new gear.

 

How many people (outside of music schools) heard of a Theremin before "Good Vibrations"? Or a hurdy-gurdy before Zeppelin's "Gallow's Pole"?

[JeffLearman]

Gee, Tom, I was honored to be immortalized in your sig line, but I see I was bumped by gangsu already. (that was fun, tho ...)

 

[dnile]

Phred - Alternatively, on a mac you can right-click on the icon and choose "Open Image in New Window" and check the URL...

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by learjeff:

Gee, Tom, I was honored to be immortalized in your sig line, but I see I was bumped by gangsu already. (that was fun, tho ...)

 

Variety is good.

 

Plus, all of you spew such schiiite that sooner or later I'll end up quoting everybody.

 

What a bunch of maroons.

 

 

http://users.bigpond.net.au/jellery/smug_daffy_duck.gif

[ManInTheBox]

I'm thinking one thing the B3, D6, Rhodes, and the Wurly all have in common, is that they are cloned. Wheter it is through S&S instruments( I know using samples isn't really cloning) or with a VSTi/DXi. There are reasons not to have the real thing, but the instrument still has a following that wants that sound, or the next best thing.

 

With that in mind, I'm thinking there is at least one digital instrument, that is close to the instruments listed above.......& that's the DX7. I doubt any of our Romplers does not contain atleast one DX7 type patch, be it a DX7's attempt to be a rhodes, or a wild swooshing metallic pad.

 

Then you have Roland trying to bring back the D50.

[JeffLearman]

Ah yes, my least favorite keyboard sound ... the DX7. What people see (hear) in those I guess I'll never know! But your point is valid regardless.

[Synthguy]

For those of us exploring synthesis as far as we can travel, the Yamaha FM algorithm is some pretty rough terrain. But when you learn your way around, it gives you timbres nothing else will. I have a V50, the DX-7's baby bro, and it's a worthy 4 operator instrument. Someday I'll have to scrounge up the big bro, the FS1R.

 

Woops, posting too quick, need more coffee.

 

Back to the original point, I do think a few contemporary electronics will be sought after.

 

Any modern analog modular.

 

Access Virus, any version.

 

Alesis Andromeda.

 

Dave Smith Instruments Evolver, any version.

 

Ensoniq anything.

 

E-mu anything.

 

Korg Z1, Trinity, Triton, Karma, Oasys.

 

Kurzweil 2600S.

 

Moog Voyager.

 

Nord Lead 3, Stage and Modular, any version.

 

Roland V-Synth, JD-800/990, JP-8000. Maybe Fantom X.

 

Waldorf anything.

 

Yamaha FS1R, EX-5, maybe Motif ES, S90 ES.

[ManInTheBox]

Trinity, Triton, Karma, Oasys, FantomX, S90, Motif, EX5...........those are all the antithesis of what we are talking about. Those are the instruments that we want to : sound like a real piano, a real B3, a real Moog, a real DX7, a real, TB303. They aren't instruments in their own right. The question is can you see any instrument becoming more than a substitute for something else.

 

Ten years from now, can you see someone looking for an authentic FantomX/Motif/Triton patch?? They'll be looking for an authentic Piano, that is more portable, a Moog that's more consistant that doesn't require the maintenance. They'll be looking for a B3, a Clav, a guitar patch, a sax, or a flute.

[Markyboard]

Originally posted by learjeff:

Ah yes, my least favorite keyboard sound ... the DX7. What people see (hear) in those I guess I'll never know! But your point is valid regardless.

Do/did you like the Polysix by any chance?

[fisheye]

We don't really understand piano's, rhodes and hammonds in their full complexity. Nature works its magic on it freely.

 

To have those levels of complexity in digitals, we'd have to program it and therefore understand it. But we don't.

 

It's thus much easier to create a new non-digital instrument than a digital one. You get the complex physics for free.

[JeffLearman]

Originally posted by Markyboard:

Originally posted by learjeff:

Ah yes, my least favorite keyboard sound ... the DX7. What people see (hear) in those I guess I'll never know! But your point is valid regardless.

Do/did you like the Polysix by any chance?

Yeah, I got a Juno 60 just before they came out and when I tried on I regretted it - the unison mode sounded so great and was missing on the Juno. Why?

 

About DX7: FM synthesis is a cool idea, and I'm sure there are a lot of great sounds a DX7 is capable of (I've never owned one). But I've seen a LOT of them played and there are a few signatoure sounds that seem to be popular but really annoy me, especially the DX7 epiano sound. I guess I just prefer more natural sounds -- the DX7 sounds are so obviously artifical. That's probably also the cool thing about it, those sounds just don't occur in nature!