DeCato Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Hi, For the moment I play mostly on my piano and on a Yam P250, but for different reasons I need to get bread and butter sounds as well and I would love to start synth stuff! I tried several synths already, but I always miss the graded 88 keys of my current gear. I read several messages that many musicians hate playing organ on a weighted keyboard, but personally, I have no problem with it. And I am so used to the action, that I don't feel that the graded hammer keys limit my speed. Lately, I feel more like buying a 90ES as it seems to have what I need and it is a great midi controller as well. This doesn't solve my analog synth GAS however Is there any disadvantage of doing everything on graded hammer keys ? And do graded hammer synths exist ? Heeeeeeelp ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 The biggest disadvantage I find is doing quick slides on organ parts. If you prefer to play synth parts on graded 88, then go for it. Check out the better controller keyboards such as the Yamaha S90ES and Roland RD700SX and use one of them to controle a tabletop or rack mount VA. Robert This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markyboard Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 And do graded hammer synths exist ? If you mean real analog (RA) with a weighted graded hammer action I don't think so. Even just a weighted action RA has not been made in quite a number of years, Prophet T8 and Rhodes Chroma come to mind. I don't believe they were "graded" actions and IMO you would'nt want them to be for synth sounds. I think you might want to look at a rompler with Virtual Analog (VA) capability as well. You may need to add plug in cards to get the VA capability but there are a number of choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LithoJazzoSphere Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 And I am so used to the action, that I don't feel that the graded hammer keys limit my speed.The issue is comfort and safety when playing organ parts with glisses, smears, etc. I don't speed is a concern at all for experienced players. Look at players like Jordan Rudess or any concert pianist, weighted keys sure don't slow any of them down. The only speed issue might be Jimmy D or Wakeman style machine gun stuff on a single note. A picture may paint a thousand words, but a melody can paint a thousand pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 With only one keyboard, IMHO, it has to be weighted, even though I use it for organ (in addition to piano, Rhodes, etc.) If I had two keyboards, the top, smaller kb would be unweighted and I'd use that for organ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue and white Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Jordan Rudess is a great example. He plays everything from one board, a weighted action Korg OASYS. Well, everything thats not done on his Continuum but thats a different story... Take a listen to Octavarium and see what can be done by one all weighted board. (If you download Octavarium and its not 23:59 in length, you have a bad copy. I learned this a few days and 99 cents ago...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LithoJazzoSphere Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Actually the song "Octavarium" is not a very good example of that. In the opening he uses the Continuum and then a pedal steel, and in the middle for the whole solo he plays a synthesizers.com modular, which has unweighted keys I believe. A better example might be either Live Scenes From New York or Live At Budokan, that's 100% weighted. A picture may paint a thousand words, but a melody can paint a thousand pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue and white Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Thats my mistake then, I thought that solo was played on the oasys Although, correct me if I'm wrong so I don't sound like an idiot, I'm pretty sure the organ used throughout the song is from the oasys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Yup, only the organ slides become a little difficult. The one finger glisses are ok, but the palm wipes are deadly on a weighted keyboard. Sometimes I'm faster on a weighted keyboard. Certainly I'm more precise. Not all weighted synths are created equal as far as synth expression is concerned. More controllers help. On the K2600 Jordan used the large ribbon to great advantage. On the Korg (Triton Extreme) which he used for a short pre-Oasys period, he had to program the long pitch bends into pedals, and the short bends/trills were done with the joystick. However from a performance perspective it would have required quite a different approach than it did on the Kurzweil. Not sure exactly how he does things with the Oasys. Generally, you will get used to the performance architecture of whatever synth you purchase. However more sliders, knobs and ribbons (and well defined aftertouch) are a good thing. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeCato Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 Thanks for all the replies, guys! As I don't play organ that long, I never had to do a palm wipe, but I can imagine this can be painfull and even dangerous on a piano-type keybed. For the moment, I think it will be a 90ES and a rack VA (still looking at the options). Muse receptor is another option I am looking at, but that's a different story ... And I'll start saving for a synth so I can get one the moment I get addicted to palm wipes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Do you feel you can play one single note trills (machine gun effect) easily on a weighted keyboard? I can't. They are very easy to do on a synth or Hammond keyboard. Certain types of runs, speed runs, just easier for me on a synth keyboard. Also, eliminating velocity (like the original analog synths and the Hammond) makes certain techniques easier to pull off, e.g. simulating metal guitar arpeggios, as even lightly played notes are heard and it sounds smoother overall. It might be that you haven't developed some of the techniques that exploit this action. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_tour Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I've always thought an action about as light as that on a Wurlitzer EP (at least on the 3 I've owned) would be pretty ideal for compromising between playing speed and the kind of control a heavier action can afford. Shouldn't pretty much any organ emulator have at least the option of cancelling velocity response? Single-note trills on a heavier action can be a real challenge -- not impossible, but something that requires work. I find it's hard to play them as Jimmy Smith and Joey D. play them -- using one finger -- and have to use two or three fingers on the same note. More work than I'm willing to do, for sure, to get the same result. The moral: light actions can be lots of fun! Probably end up not having to practice quite as much on certain technical things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4 Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 just get a receptor and play it from your p 250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeCato Posted November 11, 2005 Author Share Posted November 11, 2005 Originally posted by c4: just get a receptor and play it from your p 250 I thought about it, but I will soon be missing the aftertouch. I absolutely adore my P250, but as a controller there are some important features missing (or I don't know how to use them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeCato Posted November 11, 2005 Author Share Posted November 11, 2005 Originally posted by burningbusch: Do you feel you can play one single note trills (machine gun effect) easily on a weighted keyboard? Busch. I use the standard piano technique to do this, so using multiple fingers alternatively to create a fast trill. It still needs work but my teacher can do this amazingly fast, so it is certainly possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Nightime Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Just as it can be difficult to play piano smoothly and cleanly without the feel of the weighted action, so can it be difficult to play organ without the feel of an organ. Different keyboard feels can lead to different techniques. Sure, you can play a clavinet part on a weighted action keyboard, but the actual Clavinet action can steer you in a more percussive, funky groove. In the same vein, the organ action can lead more easily to the Hammond technique. Korg SP-200 Hammond XB-2 Korg N364 "In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome. So God helped him and created woman. Now everybody's got the blues." Willie Dixon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_tour Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Originally posted by Mr. Nightime: Different keyboard feels can lead to different techniques.That seems to be about the long and the short of it -- there's not really much that you can't do on a weighted board that you can do on an organ-style keyboard, if you've got the chops, but it is *easier* to do all of the Jimmy Smith stuff on "The Boss" and such on a lighter board. When it comes to just using a controller, I can't see that it matters so much, provided the performer knows how to put things together, but when it gets down to using an actual instrument, all of that interface becomes important very fast. Whoah -- you must have just added you avatar right while I was posting reply, Nighttime. One of these days I'll get a pic of myself at the keys where it looks like I'm doing something other than feuding with the Hatfields! Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Nightime Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Just need to make it a bit smaller. "In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome. So God helped him and created woman. Now everybody's got the blues." Willie Dixon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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