Keyboard Combo, Active Speakers or PA Combo

[ItsMikeE]

I am looking to get amplification for a single keyboard to play with a covers band in front of an average crowd of 200

 

Space and weight are an important consideration as my gear goes in the (rather fed up) bass player's (very) full van.

 

I have to decide between

1) a combo such as the Motion Sound 200,

2) Active Speakers such as Mackie SRM350 (a bit heavy) or JBL EON10 (not so heavy but not so powerful)

or

3) PA Combo such as Yamaha Stagepas 300 or Phonic Roadgear 260

 

There are very few reviews of the PA combos on the web.

Has anyone any experience of these or similar?

[Stephen Fortner]

Is your onstage amp going to be the main source of sound that the crowd hears? Or more for your own monitor?

 

Keyboard combo amps have some great features, but they all fall short of what a pair of (or single) good powered speaker can do for power and projection. The Mackie SRM-350 are compact and really not very heavy for what you get out of them. I use a pair of 450's all the time which I've owned for five years, and they continue to be solid, loud, and clean.

[ItsMikeE]

The onstage amp will be the main source of sound.

Occasionally we do bigger gigs. For those I would put a feed into a FOH P.A.

[jimmymio]

Originally posted by Stephen Fortner:

\

I use a pair of 450's all the time which I've owned for five years, and they continue to be solid, loud, and clean.

I have a single 450 which i've too have owned for 5 years and have found it a great plug and play KB amp. Unfortunately after several hundred gigs, the woofer started distorting. I just received the replacement from Mackie and it looks like a cheap, Chinese-made imitation of the original. It makes me wonder if newly purchased 450s are as good as the ones we bought 5 years ago.

JP

[resigned]

The Motion Sound KP-200 is the answer, which will not only give you a full stereo sound as your monitor (which you're going to love) but also acts as a direct box for sending the keys to the FOH. Plus it can act as a powered vocal monitor too (use the Click input signal which has it's own volume control but does not send it's signal to the FOH).

[ITGITC]

I was in Guitar Center last weekend and asked my friend, a sales doood, which speaker sold better - the JBL EON G2 or the Mackie SRM 450.

 

He said the JBL sells better because of its 15" woofer. People think they're getting more for their money than Mackie's 12".

 

I then asked him "Which one sounds better?" He said the Mackie has a better-sounding horn.

 

When asked about the SRM 350 and the JBL EON 10" regarding which one sounds better, his opinion is that the JBL sounds better.

 

I didn't ask him which of these is the better seller.

 

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it.

[ItsMikeE]

I am hoping to hear the Motion Sound next weekend.

[JeffLearman]

I'm faced with a similar decision and I'm still sitting on the fence (not very comfortable!) Replacing some old stolen gear: a powered stereo mixer and pair of EV 12" floor monitors. (The 30-yr-old EV monitors sounded great though a little colored. The powered amp was noisy & had little headroom, but nonetheless served me well enough for over 20 years.)

 

I like 12" for portability and I rely on the bass player for bass (plus it allows me to be more heavy handed on the left without annoying the bass player). And I have a pair of Bose 802's when I want more bass, but I prefer to leave them set up at home. If you want to push serious bass, you'll want 15" speakers.

 

I've heard Dream's rig which is a pair of Roland keyboard combo amps (one larger and one smaller) and they sound great. Don't know how well they'd work for vocals or whether they're colored, but his vintage keys & piano sounds all worked just great. That also gives him the ability to use just one when space is tight, and he can arrange them in various ways on stage.

 

The disadvantage to these is I wouldn't put 'em on poles or barstools to get 'em up a bit where they can be heard better. They have a pretty flexible mixer section with 4 stereo inputs and easy to gang for stereo use.

 

Another option I'm considering is another powered mixer (e.g., Soundcraft Gigrac1000ST or Yamaha EMX5000) plus a pair of JBL SRX112M 12" floor monitors. This would be similar to what I had only better. Both of those are more power than I need, but it's hard to find stereo with less power (other than Behringer). And I'd be happy to pay an extra $100 or $200 to have that power for other purposes. I tend to keep gear that works forever, so it doesn't pay to cut corners.

 

A third option I'm considering is a small line mixer and a pair of EV SXA100M powered monitors. I believe that would be the best sounding option, and plenty loud. But it would add a few extra connections (power to speakers) and I like to minimize the fuss.

 

And that dang fence is giving me hemarrhoids ...

[ItsMikeE]

This is just a hobby for me. I cannot justify the cost of the EVs.

The more research I do into this, the more confused I get.

Is there any room on your fence for one more?

[JeffLearman]

See Jazz's post HERE for more options on powered speakers.

 

Yeah, the EV's aren't cheap. For the budget path, you could consider Behringer Eurolive powered floor monitors. Haven't heard 'em so I have no idea what they sound like. This is the 12" version, it also comes in 15". But I don't like that shape because you can't put it on end, which is how I usually use mine (often on barstools).

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by learjeff:

And that dang fence is giving me hemarrhoids ...

I feel your pain, brother.

 

I'm not sure about the powered mixer idea, Jeff. An earlier band that I played with used a Peavey powered mixer. It worked. But I always felt that we would have had more headroom with a separate power amp.

 

I dunno. If money was no object, I'd recommend a QSC Plx3402 power amp and a pair of EAW FR129z speakers with 12" woofers just for you.

 

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/tn/7/9/0/281790.jpg

 

FR159z have 15" woofers:

 

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/tn/7/9/2/281792.jpg

 

 

The power amp has a great power to weight ratio and puts out 700 Watts into 8 ohms RMS in STEREO.

 

CLONK HERE

 

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/tn/9/8/0/265980.jpg

 

Whatdayathink?

[Unsound Practices]

I just picked up a Hartke KM200. Cheap as chips ($450), nice mixer (which you may not need with a single keyboard), and it angles like a floor wedge to point to your head.

 

It sounds good in the practice room, and my first gig with it is this Thursday. I've got 10 gigs between now and the end of the month, so I'll post about how it holds up later in the month.

 

If you live in a big-ish town, you might consider renting some different solutions and see which one works for you/the band/the venue.

[jimmymio]

Originally posted by learjeff:

I like 12" for portability and I rely on the bass player for bass (plus it allows me to be more heavy handed on the left without annoying the bass player). .

I gotta say I don't understand this sentiment. If you are playing things that conflict with the bass player, is the solution to play through a system where the bass may be less pronounced but still conflict, or is it to adjust the parts you are playing so that they better mesh with the bass player and make the arrangement sound less cluttered?

JP

[midinut]

You don't play with the "Lead" Bass player I do ...

 

Sometimes I have to hold down the bottom because he's busy showing off his bass chops!

[ItsMikeE]

Went to hear some of these yesterday.

 

There was a Motion Sound 3D rotary. I presume that is designed for Organ sounds. Piano sounds were not very impressive.

Tried the Laney 165, again weak sound.

Impressed by the Roland KB combos. Very impressive sound although a bit on the heavy side.

Also heard Mackies. SM450s great with sub-woofer, pretty good without. SM350s not as good as I had expected from people's comments.

 

I learnt a fair bit but, I am not any closer to making a decision.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by ItsMikeE:

I learnt a fair bit but, I am not any closer to making a decision.

Not so fast. You learned a LOT and you are MUCH closer to making a decision because you know what you DON'T want.

 

Speakers - the only way to know what you want is to LISTEN to a BUNCH of them. Listen, listen, listen.

 

Your time was well spent. It would be great if you can find shops that have other powered speakers - like the JBL EON. I have a band mate who likes the PEAVEY powered speaker. Some people like the Electro Voice powered speaker.

 

You also need to consider passive two-way and passive three-way speakers. They're not dead yet. In fact LearJeff just purchased a pair of passive JBL two-way speakers.

 

Don't rush this decision. You're getting a fine education by taking the time to listen. This way there will be little 'buyer's remorse' after you put your money down.

 

London's a big place. Surely there are other stores to visit.

 

Good luck.

 

Tom

[ItsMikeE]

While London is a big place, there are not a lot of places where you can hear the gear, just lots of places who will get one in for you when you want to buy it (unless someone can tell me differently).

Yes I learned a lot, but it was a case of "the more you learn, the more you realise you don't yet know".

I have heard some EONs as well.

I was hoping to avoid passive speakers as I am trying to minimise the size and weight of what I have to carry around.

Electro Voice is just out of my price range, as is the Bose PAS system.

 

I won't rush the decision. My current gear should last a while yet (famous last words).

[phatmann]

I bought a Motion Sound KP200S and returned it, because for the cost and weight it was just not loud enough. I did not find the stereo effect good enough to justify the low volume. Furthermore, it did not reproduce my acoustic piano patches well, even with the stereo.

 

I just got a Barbetta 31C. It's small, light, and loud. It's got 2 8" woofers and it's really punchy. I may get another, and then I will have a really loud stereo system that I could gig anywhere with. If you know you will be playing in mono and don't mind more weight, go with the 41C, it does not cost much more and has twice the power (and 10" speakers).

[Cliffk]

I haven't had a chance to check out any Electro Voice speakers/amps, and I've only ever heard good things about them. Anybody use these bad boys?

[ItsMikeE]

I would love to hear a Barbetta, but I do not know of anyone in the UK who has them. I did email Barbetta to ask, and they did not bother to reply.

[DanL]

Barbetta will sometimes take a while to respond but their amps are great. It's a small company so when you get a response you are getting one from the owner himself. Be patient!

[JeffLearman]

Originally posted by jimmymio:

Originally posted by learjeff:

I like 12" for portability and I rely on the bass player for bass (plus it allows me to be more heavy handed on the left without annoying the bass player). .

I gotta say I don't understand this sentiment. If you are playing things that conflict with the bass player, is the solution to play through a system where the bass may be less pronounced but still conflict, or is it to adjust the parts you are playing so that they better mesh with the bass player and make the arrangement sound less cluttered?

JP

Two answers to clear up the conundrum:

 

1) I play blues jams. 'Nuff said?

 

2) Even with well-coordinated bass parts, I prefer the sound of piano bass doubled with bass only if the piano isn't too heavy. Ditto Rhodes.

 

I agree that the best solution (especially if we all had roadies) is to learn to play well and EQ your patches for the parts you play. Then you can have 24" speakers and sound great, plus being able to shake the guts out of folks if you want to.

 

Still, I like 12" monitors. Yes, to some extent it's a crutch. YMMV.

[JeffLearman]

Jazz uses the EV's (the 15" ones).

 

I ended up getting a Yamaha EMX5000 and a pair of JBL JRX11M 2-way 12" wedges, for a few reasons.

 

For one thing, it's very similar to what it replaces and that worked well for me. Similar only a lot better, especially the mixer & power. (The mixer is way overkill for the job, but I really do like having signal and peak LEDs on each channel!)

 

Secondly, the total price was less for that combination than it would have been for any of the 12" powered speakers. I've heard the powered speakers though not A/B compared them with what I got. Powered speakers should be able to sound better than amp plus passive, because they're biamped and the amps are matched to the drivers. But you pay for what you get.

 

In the end, I wanted the stuff and it was available right away. I knew it would do the job and it was a price I was willing to pay.

 

Wednesday when I used it, a lot of the regulars made a point of telling me how much better the new system sounded. But then, they're nice folks They didn't say much when I substituded my Bose 802's (with trusty ol' Yamaha P2100 power) for one or two jams, even though I thought they sounded far better than the EV Entertainer and FM12-2's I'd been using. (The Entertainer is a powered mixer: noisy mixer and wimpy power -- handy unit though, and served me well since 1983. The EV floor monitors I always really liked and I'll miss 'em.)

[Clavinovaguyusa]

The Mackie C300 speakers are essentially the same speaker as the SM450, but passive. They are lighter, cost less and give you options in the powered mixer and amplifier category.

[Mr. Nightime]

I've had my pair of Peavey 15" 2-way passive cabs for quite some time, and despite the directionality close in, I still love them. I power them with a Crown XLS-402, so I have no problem with power, and I don't think I've ever gotten any unintentional distortion.

[ItsMikeE]

Having posted questions to get people's opinions I thought it only fiar to tell you what finally happened.

I ended up getting a pair of active PA speakers.

The final choice came down to Mackie 350 against RCF Art 310A and I did a side-by-side comparison in a shop, but using CDs not my keyboard (far from ideal I know).

The Mackies are slightly smaller, but slightly heavier.

To my ears the Art 310s match the Mackie 450 speakers on sound quality, despite the difference in size/weight. Having proper stands made a big difference to the sound.

The Mackie 350s are very directional, they just do not spread the sound nearly as well as the Art 310s. There is a very definite sweet spot as you walk across the room (not a problem on the larger Mackies).

Having bought the RCFs despite never playing my keyboards through them, I did my first gig with them on Saturday night and have to say that so far I am very pleased.

I have a Korg T3 and I was not using any mixer or EQ, just a direct line out.

The sound is very clean and accurate. If you are putting in a good sound, then you will get out a good sound. The thing I particularly noticed is that you hear the full range, very cleanly. The sound cuts through without being shrill or needing to be very loud. The bass is very clear but very tight (the 10 inch speakers I guess) without any of the rumble you often get from bigger speakers.

All in all I am very impressed, and would recommend them to anyone who is not looking for a "coloured" sound.

[WWW]

2 new combo amps:

1) Tranor K4

2) Carvin KB1010

 

PRO- should give Sona and Roland a run for their $$$

 

CON- no rotary (like MS KBR3d), nominal stereo separation (like powered monitors, eg, JBL Eons)

 

As for fidelity, haven't tried either. Waiting for field reports.

 

Still, it is nice to have a spare, loud, small combo amp for a gig (My usual amp is a Leslie 2101/2102)

[HomeAmateur]

Ive asked about these in the past without much responce. The price seems reasonable. And they are after all Yamaha so you would think they would be decdent. Has everyone ruled these out ? reason ? or hasnt anyone had a chance to try them out ???

 

Yamaha MSR400

 

http://www.musiciansbuy.com/Yamaha_MSR400_400watt_Powered_Speaker_with_Free_MSR400KIT.html

[jimmymio]

FWIW, I own a pair of the Yamaha MS400s (not the MSR 400s). They are of a previous generatioin and have 15" woofers. They are OK but not in the same league as the Mackie SRM 450s.

JP