Pros/Cons of using a mini mixer live

[rhodes_sine]

Hi there

 

Looking for some advice from the good people here on using a mini-mixer live. To explain...

 

I usually have 2 keyboards going when I gig with my band, occasionally 3 and as the last set we did live had it, I had to use 3. We are one of these bands that local soundmen hate anyway as there are 6 of us on stage, and there's usually about 10 instruments to be setup.

 

Of course the soundmen in clubs and venues I play in are used to 3 and 4 piece rock bands so when we turn up with 2 acoustics, electric guitar, lap steel, ukelele, 3 keyboards, 2 vocalists, bass, harmonicas et al they start to look worried...

 

Most gigs I know the guy at the mixing desk but on the last the soundman was obviously some random guy off the street, I spent the whole gig making thumbs up or thumbs down gestures at him as he consistently messed my levels up. Couldn't really hear myself 50% of the time. I'd feel sorry for him but I know a couple of other soundmen who've been A-ok at the mixing desk when we play live so it can't be that hard...and it's difficult to feel sorry for a guy you want to throw things at.

 

Anyway I'm busy enough without having to throw things at the soundman, so I'm looking for any info on a good 4 or so Channel mini-mixer, which I can then plug the output of into the PA, (where I usually plug in everything anyway)then tell the soundman to leave my settings alone if he looks like an idiot. Thereby hopefully reducing the possibility of him messing things up

 

I'd like to have my own amp to stick eveything in but £££ and practicality of humping it about comes into play. I'm already bringing too much stuff to gigs..without a car

 

If anyone could suggest some good makes/models or other solutions to this soundman problem I'd be very grateful. Looking at something thats £50 or so ($100). more features etc the better. Also are there any downsides to doing this?? Am I better off without??

 

Sorry for the rambling post by the way..

[ITGITC]

A Mackie 1202VLZ-PRO comes to mind.

 

It's best to send a separate output of each synth to the sound guy and let him work with it based on the sound in the house.

 

But if you don't trust him, then you've got to use the minimixer and do it yourself.

 

The problem with this is that it gives the sound guy less control.

 

The advantage in this is that it gives the sound guy less control.

 

 

If you're recording, you definitely want to keep all your signals separate. But for pub gigs? Keep the control in YOUR hands.

 

I'd get a Mackie 1202 VLZ-PRO or 1402 VLZ-PRO.

 

Tom

[DafDuc]

They're easier to walk off with. Lost a cool tiny 8-channel (Biamp?) that way, way back in the day.

[kanker.]

I always submix myself. I don't trust soundmen enough, just like guitar, drums, keys, etc..., anyone with enough money can be a soundman. That said, I always put it in a positive light for them when they come up with a stack of DI's I tell them 'I just need one line, give you less to worry about.' No one is going to know better how to balance your sound than you, don't trust the job to anyone else.

[rhodes_sine]

Cheers Tom, I've just been having a look at one on the Mackie Site. It looks mint. Does everything I want with bells on, and then some. Some great quality features for the price.

 

Only problem will probably be price, all the filthy rip-off music stores here want £240 - £300 for it. Bah! Rip-off Britain. Out of my budget, or at least lower down the list of "must buys" at that price.

 

heh heh I could see everyone in the band wanting to plug into it if I got one though...

[kanker.]

Alesis makes some small mixers that you may even be able to place on one of your keyboards, keeping the control right at your fingertips.

[rhodes_sine]

Yes, I'm coming round to the notion that locally, with a few honourable exceptions, Soundmen aren't worth the free beer they get paid with.

[rhodes_sine]

Cheers Kevank. Alesis you say? I will investigate.

I tend to have effects pedals rammed on most available spaces on my messy live setup, but space could be made for the right bit of kit...

[Sven Golly]

Mackie gear is quality stuff, and you pay for quality, but that does seem a little high compared to N.American prices. Gotta love VAT, huh?

 

If you're truly pinching pennies, you might look into Behringer products . They have a single rack space mixer that would do the job for you (if you have a rack, it's a good way to go), or some small tabletop mixers similar to the Mackie.

 

Originally posted by kevank:No one is going to know better how to balance your sound than you

Actually I would suggest that 90% of the keyboard players that I've met in my travels have very little idea how to balance their multiple sound sources for the room, and that they are often the last people that should be doing their own submixing.

 

That's just my experience, though... as always, YMMV.

 

Cheers,

SG

[burningbusch]

I played last Sat. in the band that opened for KC and the Sunshine Band at a private event. We had originally requested 4 inputs for Keys. Talking to the sound tech during set up I requested another input for the Clav. He said things were really tight already (KC had 15 people on stage, we had 10, that's a lot of inputs). Did I have a submix? I pulled out my Mackie 1202 that I brought along just in case. Did I have adapters? I pulled out the TRS to XLR adapters plus two 20' cables. He thanked profusely and went out of his way to make sure I was getting the sound I wanted.

 

Busch.

[Prague]

Isn't 2nd hand/used equipment available in Britain? A used Mackie 1202 of any age would be vastly better than a friggin Behringer.

[Steve in KS]

I use an ancient (but I love it) Studiomaster 12 channel mixer of which I use ten channels (because I like STEREO ) The mixer is built in/onto my keyboard stand with 'permanent' cabling so all I have to do is set the boards on the stand and plug them in. The levels are already approximately where they should be and it shortens set-up time greatly.

Ideally you should send separate feeds for each keyboard to the soundman, but in case they're not up to the task or if you just prefer to be able to set up your own mix, at least for your own monitoring, its best to just do it yourself.

[DafDuc]

My live rig has a Peavey R6M 6x4 rack mount monitor mixer. Everything can route everywhere - very flexible. Kinda high noise though. Still, been using it for 20 years. Ain't broke...

[coyote]

One potential downside of using a submixer is that you may unwittingly add distortion to the final mix due to the stacking of gain stages. Every gain stage, even at unity or below, adds some distortion.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by coyote:

One potential downside of using a submixer is that you may unwittingly add distortion to the final mix due to the stacking of gain stages. Every gain stage, even at unity or below, adds some distortion.

That's a good point. However, I don't think you're going to hear that distortion in a live mix. There's just too much going on to hide it.

 

Mackie mixers are pretty good at having low noise. I don't know about the others.

 

Again, if I was recording, the signal from each synth would have a direct connection to the board. I wouldn't use a mixer. That's obvious to some, I know.

 

And if I was recording... I'd send a STEREO signal to the board.

 

(I have a feeling that this stereo/mono debate will go on into eternity.)

 

I have another feeling... it's an itch down under that I just can't get rid of.

 

But that's a topic for another thread... on another forum perhaps, huh?

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Did I have a submix? I pulled out my Mackie 1202 that I brought along just in case. Did I have adapters? I pulled out the TRS to XLR adapters plus two 20' cables. He thanked profusely and went out of his way to make sure I was getting the sound I wanted.

This raises a very salient point, Busch... being prepared means more than knowing your parts and showing up on time with your keys in tow.

 

I have a gig 'survival kit' that accompanies me to every show, and includes a 2-channel DI with ground lifts, 2 x 20' XLR cables, extra 1/4" instrument cables, backup pedals, duct tape, a small tool kit, etc. etc. etc.

 

Those of us that have been around already know this, but it can't be stressed enough; be as self-reliant as you possibly can, and it will earn you many friends along the way (and better references for other gigs, natch ). Show up with the bare essentials, and when something goes wrong, you'll be "that damn keyboard player who was a pain in my arse."

 

And now back to your regularly scheduled program...

 

Cheers,

SG

[rhodes_sine]

Hi Guys

 

Thanks for the advice and info. I was previously unaware that submixing can increase distortion through stacking gain levels, it's good to know these things. Gets filed away in my brain to try and apply to other situations in the future.

 

I've been looking at an Alesis unit that looks handy and is a nice portable size and price but still fancy a Mackie 1202. May get lucky on Ebay as have spotted some second hand going for £120 - £150 which is a bit more like it.

 

I totally agree on having a backup kit - got cables and batteries sorted and a couple of DI boxes I bring along incase there's a shortage. As far as a toolkit goes I have to use a jeweller's screwdriver set on one of my keyboards to tune it which is a bit of a pain in the ass but worth it. Hmmm, actually calling it a keyboard is maybe taking things a bit far..

 

Cheers and all the best.

[Andre Lower]

Rhodes_sine,

 

I've been through the same problem and my first purchase was a small Behringer mixer. It did the job, but also added some hum to the mix...As soon as I could I bought a Mackie VLZ1202 which I have to this day, and it was worth every penny. I bought mine 2nd hand, but Mackies are built like tanks and if a basic inspection does not reveal any major component malfunction, you're probably going to be happy with it for a long time.

 

Another bonus you'll get beside the obvious ability to brew your own submix is that you get a wonderful headphone amp which allows you to check equipment and/or test patches live on stage without interfering in the FOH mix. I do this every time (pressing MUTE and SOLO on any given channel mutes the signal that was going to FOH and sends it to your headphone jack, allowing you the secluded audition you need to test a patch, remember a solo lick right before staring a song, etc.).

 

Another bonus: You get a platform from which to introduce MP3/CD music in between sets, or even short introductions to specific songs, etc.

 

All in all, a great leap forward.

[Hammodel AV]

I have three submixers available to me. At church, I use a DOD802RM (eight channel); in my portable rig, a Nady RMX6; and as a standby a Behringer MX802. The Nady has an advantage in that it provides balanced XLR or unbalanced outputs. For the DOD mixer, I put it thru a Nady Compressor, which has the XLR output. I have Rapco DB-100 DI that I use for the Behringer.

 

Brian.

[rhodes_sine]

Andre:

 

Damn, that headphone amp is a useful function - this bit of kit keeps looking better and better! I can think of a few times I have blasted out slightly out of tune synth sounds that need a little tweaking, which I'd rather the crowd didn't hear...

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Andre Lower:

Rhodes_sine,

 

I've been through the same problem and my first purchase was a small Behringer mixer. It did the job, but also added some hum to the mix...

The small Behringers (used to?) have unbalanced outs, so that was the source of your hum. You really want a mixer with balanced outs. Ideally one would find a mixer with inbuilt DI's for unbalanced inputs since many synth outs are still unbalanced otherwise you need to add DIs in front of your mixer for lowest noise. In pratice I find short cables are good enough with my Rolls 6x4 line mixer. I use balanced cables even for my unbalanced outs.

 

The Behringer mixers I have used are good value for money. The noise floor is pretty good, The biggest problem is the inbuilt effects are noisy.

 

[Edit:]I don't know of any line mixer with inbuilt DI's. Anybody have a lead?

[iLaw]

Nobody's mentioned the Yamaha MG series mixers yet, so I will. I think they work well for keyboard submixes, even (or maybe especially) the MG10/2 at the bottom end of the line. Don't know prices or availability in the UK, but in my neighborhood I can pick up a new MG10/2 for $100.

 

Larry.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Byrdman:

In pratice I find short cables are good enough with my Rolls 6x4 line mixer.

Byrdman, so you like your Rolls line mixer? I've been discouraged from looking into those (and similar models from Midiman) in the past because of "headroom issues" ... some people have told me they distort, or don't pump out enough master volume. So it is refreshing to hear someone have success with these because we keyboardists don't necessarily need (or want to pay for) mic preamps or phantom power.

 

Have you found the problems I mentioned above and just realized a workaround, or have there never been any issues in using your line mixer? Any caveats to share?

 

Thanks,

 

gg

[jimmymio]

Originally posted by rhodes_sine:

I've been looking at an Alesis unit that looks handy and is a nice portable size and price but still fancy a Mackie 1202. May get lucky on Ebay as have spotted some second hand going for £120 - £150 which is a bit more like it.

I'm not saying a plain old 1202 would not work for you but when comparing prices, be aware that the 1202 was the first generation and was upgraded to a 1202VLZ and then again to the 1202VLZ Pro.

JP

[ITGITC]

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/7/8/4/282784.jpg

 

C'mon... this purchase is a no-brainer.

 

$300 with headroom out da Ying-Yang.

 

OK, so it's got some microhpone inputs & phantom power that you think you'll never use. Consider them free when you buy the FOUR STEREO LOW-NOISE line inputs with headroom that will make you sound better than you ever have.

 

Low noise, high headroom, LOUD headphone amp, steel construction, great reputation, highest resale value... $300.

 

This little Mackie mixer became a classic years ago. No other manufacturer can touch it in the "best bang for the buck" category.

 

It's the best $300 you'll spend this Holiday Season. Go for it, GeekGurl.

 

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

It's the best $300 you'll spend this Holiday Season. Go for it, GeekGurl.

 

Alas, not for me right now, Tom. No munnys on gear till I get a few more gigs to pay for such things.

 

Actually my 2 Motion Sound KT-80 amps have been working out quite well. They're my stage monitors and have XLR direct outs on the back, which I send to the house. I've played thru just a PA with no monitoring of my own before and that doesn't work so well for me ("we'll give you your own monitor mix, with LOTS of keyboards..." ... ever play those gigs where you only know what you're playing by looking at your hands?). So for now, this will have to be my available option ...

[BluesKeys]

Quote iLaw

Nobody's mentioned the Yamaha MG series mixers yet, so I will. I think they work well for keyboard submixes, even (or maybe especially) the MG10/2 at the bottom end of the line. Don't know prices or availability in the UK, but in my neighborhood I can pick up a new MG10/2 for $100.

--------------------------------------------------

 

 

I was looking at the Yamaha's myself

[Mr. Nightime]

Count me in on the Mackie 1202VLZ bandwagon. I've been using one for years. For some time I would just run into the PA and count on someone else setting my sound. That was until I got tired playing by braille. In order to get the sound up enough on stage for me to hear anything, it was too loud on everyone else. Now I go nowhere without my amp.

I've had some sound men complain about me having my system on stage (It's a small PA). I just tell them that they wouldn't ask a guitar player to go without their amp, so don't ask me to.

I run everything in stereo. I have my piano and synth running into their own stereo channels. I run the organ through a Motion Sound Pro3TM. I run the internal mike through a channel, and the lows from the Pro3TM into their own stereo channel.

If I have to run into the PA, I'll feed my onstage kit using the control room outs, and the XLR main outs to the PA (in stereo, of course.) The only times I have any problem with this is one club that has the most delapidated monitor board in human history, or another one where they can't turn off the phantom power. DO NOT allow phantom power to go to your board outputs! It'll mess the whole thing up.

As was said, at the price you can't beat them. This is my second one, only because the first was stolen from my truck.

Word of advice. If you're playing more than one night in a club and your gear stays set up, take the time and bring it home with you. It could very easily grow legs and walk away. I've got a case just for this.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

Originally posted by Byrdman:

In pratice I find short cables are good enough with my Rolls 6x4 line mixer.

Byrdman, so you like your Rolls line mixer? I've been discouraged from looking into those (and similar models from Midiman) in the past because of "headroom issues" ... some people have told me they distort, or don't pump out enough master volume. So it is refreshing to hear someone have success with these because we keyboardists don't necessarily need (or want to pay for) mic preamps or phantom power.

 

Have you found the problems I mentioned above and just realized a workaround, or have there never been any issues in using your line mixer? Any caveats to share?

 

Thanks,

 

gg

I don't think you will see problems. I have not seen headroom problems and I am not running at full gain. I think anybody who is having either of those problems has a gain structure problem somewhere.

 

The only problem I have found is that the phantom output is useless - its way down on voltage. The other issue is that on mine the knobs are tiny and its hard to see at a gig what your settings are.

 

BTW, the nice thing about the Rolls is its only about 5 inches deep. So it lies on top of my VK8 with a piece of non-slip cloth a friend gave me under it (it really works - I can hammer away all night and it won't move) Even the smallest conventional mixers tend to be too deep to sit there conveniently, so you end up with yet another stand for your mixer. Before I came up with this arrangement I used to put my mixer on a music stand laid far back.

 

If it did not sit there I would probably go with a conventional mixer. The VU on the rolls is only 5 segment (ie, close to useless) and the eq is bass and treble only. The one thing I would insist on is balanced outs.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/7/8/4/282784.jpg

 

C'mon... this purchase is a no-brainer.

 

The only issue with this kind of low end board is that the ranges of the eq are fixed. A parametric mid range makes a huge difference to what you can do for vocals especially if you need to remove nasality from someones voice. Also there's typically either only one pre-fader send or none which makes running monitors from the board harder but, realistically, that's not what you are planning to use it for.

 

For keys, I think size is the most important question. For running PA, on the other hand, I don't think one can sacrifice functionality for size. This particular size of unit for me kind of falls between stools.