Jazz Harmony Question

[b3kys]

How much did Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, and Satie have to do with influencing jazz?

 

I have met people who refuse to admit that classical composers have anything to do with jazz.

 

Any comments.

[J_tour]

I suspect that the Stravinsky, Satie, Bartok references you hear sometimes are red herrings -- composers who were personally beloved by some of the major engines of jazz. Debussy and Ravel deserve some credit for developing systematic uses of extensions beyond the major seventh -- which is already present in Chopin, however. There just isn't a great deal of harmony in most jazz that is particularly difficult or advanced, beyond what, say, Chopin was already up to, despite the claims of some that jazz harmony is a distinct discipline and black art, available to only the deepest thinkers. At least according the middling number of harmonic analyses of classical works I've performed myself. I could, of course, be wrong.

[iLaw]

I don't have a copy of Duke Ellington's autobiograpy handy ("Music Is My Mistress"), but I seem to recall that in it he gives credit to his piano/theory/harmony teacher, Henry Grant, for having exposed him early on to European classical composers, particularly Ravel. Someone with the book handy could probably pull down a quote or two.

 

I suspect it would be easy to find occasional credit being given to European classical composers by many classically-schooled jazz musicians and composers (Anthony Braxton and Billy Taylor come to mind here). I'm not talking about some so-and-so claiming that Ellington's use of 13th chords is Ravel- or Debussy-like, I'm talking about the actual composers/performers themselves giving the credit. Anyone got time for a research project? I think it would be an easy one.

 

Larry.

[J_tour]

I just reread my post; by "black art" I meant "mysterious witchery," and nothing else.

 

I agree, iLaw, that would be an interesting project. Even though it's a bit out-of-fashion among academics, I think biographical source- or influence-studies are due for a comeback, in addition to being interesting in their own right.

[b3kys]

Charlie Parker once said that he listened to stravinsky. I read an interview where dizzy gillespie said that he would sight read classical music with charlie parker before their gigs and charlie would incorporate phrases into his solos.

[JimmyJimJim]

Denying that classical composers have anything to do with jazz is ridiculous, because so much of jazz harmony has its origins in classical music. I mean, it's come a long way since... but when you boil it down (and i'm strictly talking about harmony here), the basics are pretty similar. I was just playing some Diz tune the other day - Bebop? - where he just outlines the V and I and it sounds frankly baroque! I dunno if he was taking the piss, but it just shows that the building blocks are similar.

 

I know that this is a whole different topic to the more modern 'classical' composers you mention above who were exploring newer harmony just like the jazz dudes did, but to write off any classical influence seems a little silly!

[b3kys]

Good Point.

As Brad Meldau once said it all comes down to a V-I cadence which is came around the time of montiverdi i think. Equal Temperment was created during the baroque period, triads, progressions, sequences, cadences, ornaments, are classical.

[Dave Horne]

[in major]

 

V - I

 

ii - V - I

 

vi - ii - V - I

 

iii - vi - ii - V - I

 

vii° - iii - vi - ii - V - I

 

IV - vii° - iii - vi - ii - V - I

 

and finally

 

I - IV - vii° - iii - vi - ii - V - I

 

Sorry, got carried away.

[Nick Ponti]

You cannot deny the influence of the 'classic' composers. Take a look at Ravel's Gaspard, particularly Le Gibet (2nd piece of the set). This is way beyond what was happening in the jazz/pop music of the same period but, later became common jazz vocabulary.

[zephonic]

I'd say the main difference is not in how they get there, but the fact that they arrive at two entirely different places.

[David R]

A friend of mine did his Master's Composition thesis on the influence of 20th-century classical music on jazz. Strayhorn was particularly influenced by Debussy ("Chelsea Bridge," with all its 7(#11) chords, follows the same movement as a Debussy orchestral piece, I forget which one). Bob Brookmeyer has been outspoken about his admiration for Webern and Lutoslawski (especially the 12-note chords - my friend compared Webern and Lutoslawski to Brookmeyer's arrangement of My Funny Valentine), and went over to Europe in the '80s to study composition and conducting.

 

Don Byron has recorded a fair amount of classical music, and has often spoke of Stravinsky's influence on his writing and playing. I'm not sure what Kenny Wheeler's influences are but there must be some classical study in there somewhere.

 

Chick Corea is an avowed practitioner of Bartok and Scriabin (he often plays Scriabin preludes in his solo concerts). Herbie gets a lot of stuff from Debussy and Ravel (and even a Ravel piece on Gershwin's World). Keith Jarrett's done many classical records for ECM in the 1980s and '90s. And of course Mehldau's into all sorts of classical piano repertoire, from Brahms, Schumann, Schubert and Chopin to Berg and Schoenberg.

 

The influence is there, across all generations of jazz. For if players haven't checked the music out themselves, they've undoubtedly checked out other jazz musicians who DO have classical music in their lineage.

 

David