Help! - Band Recording With Click Tracks

[StillFightingIt]

Hi,

my band are recording our first EP this weekend and I have an issue. I'm really happy with how we play live etc. nothing is sequenced so we don't play to clicks or anything else. (Just the drummers ability to stay in time)

 

I want us to be recording to a click track on the weekend (as does the studio engineer) for a few reasons, 1 staying in time, 2 the ability to quantise midi parts perfectly (and vst instruments), 3 apply effects that are tempo syncronised etc. Now my band do see these points. But the last few rehearsals we've been practicing with a click track and although my drummer can play in time fine, he looses all energy, feel and groove because he's constantly thinking about the click track. What would you do in my situation? record with a click and get the benefits with potentially a sub-par drum performance or record to a click and get a messier result and lose the above benefits?

 

It's a tough situation.

My guitarist would prefer a less tight but energetic recording. But i'm leaning towards the click track.

Thanks in advance for any help or insight you can offer.

[linwood]

Try giving the drummer a perc track that's hard quantized to listen to. Something like a shaker and conga track.

[ITGITC]

Screw the click. If your band is recording this weekend and the drummer can't play to a click, you're hosed. Forget the click.

 

The groove IS the music. Without the groove, you're lost.

 

It's much better to keep the groove and forgo those other items you mentioned: 1 staying in time, 2 the ability to quantise midi parts perfectly (and vst instruments), 3 apply effects that are tempo syncronised etc.

 

 

If your drummer can't stay in time without a click, you're in trouble.

 

If you're quantizing a part that doesn't need to be, you're apt to kill the groove. Unless you're playing marches or some electronica stuff, don't screw up your rhythm by quantizing parts.

 

Applying effects that are synchronized to the tempo doesn't mean that there has to be a click.

 

Dooooood, if your band is going into the recording studio this weekend and you're just now bringing up the topic of playing to a click and quantizing parts - you're screwed. Get the band in the studio. Keep the energy up and the spirits high. Capture that energy within the first few takes - don't take all day trying for pure perfection.

 

There have been session after session of what would have been great takes that have been RUINED by an engineer or producer who wants to screw with success by adding something at the last minute - like playing to a click and quantizing parts.

 

Let the band play and do what they do best. Otherwise you'll not be happy with the results.

 

Trust me. This is coming from experience.

 

Tom

[JeffLearman]

Playing well to a click isn't something you do overnight. It's a skill that has to be mastered, like any other. It isn't just the drummer, either -- it's the whole band -- individually and as a group. The drummer is central and key, of course. But he may be used to unconsciously taking timing cues from other instruments.

 

If your drummer is generally pretty solid and your band is tight, and if you're just doing a quick recording weekend, I suggest you record without the click. With a good DAW program it is possible (though tedious) to create a MIDI tempo map after the fact that matches the song. I do this using n-Track, when adding keys to tracks others have recorded without a click. Or, for fun, when duplicating classics like Beatles tunes (something I do for fun and to help learn how bands achieve their sounds).

 

I have a step-by-step procedure written up on how to do this on n-Track (a low cost but excellent DAW program, find it at http://ntrack.com ). You'd be on your own for any other DAW, but if it's any good it should provide a means to do this.

 

Meanwhile, make it a long-term goal to learn to play to the click. Sometimes play to a click at practice (it's HARD if you're not very used to doing it -- much harder than when playing alone).

 

BTW, I assumed you're going to record the rhythm section in one pass, rather than recording songs one instrument at a time. If it's just a weekend recording session, you wouldn't have enough time to do many tracks using the one-at-a-time method.

 

If you are planning to just do a couple of tunes using the one-at-a-time method, try laying down a good click track or basic MIDI drum track and having a few key instruments record to that, and see if the drummer can then record against this bed track. This is a lot easier than playing a whole tune cold to nothing but a click.

 

BTW, if the drummer is interested in recording these days, being able to record to nothing but a click is a very important skill to develop.

[Dave Horne]

Since the recording is this weekend, it's a bit late to ask for advice.

 

A sax player friend of mine got me to practice with a metronome many years ago where the 'clicks' represented just beats two and four (in 4/4). My overall time improved greatly after practicing that way; I still practice that way on occasion.

 

I'm afraid there's no short term solution for playing accurately in time. If your drummer had practiced with a click track for some time you might have been in a better position now.

 

At the very least this session will be a learning experience.

[daBowsa]

Yeah, and if this is your first EP and you're doing it in one weekend, you need to KEEP IT SIMPLE.

 

Screw the tempo based effects and vst's and MIDI. Just play it and record it. Done. There's no way you'll have time to do anything fancy in a weekend, believe me.

 

As I'm sure Gas will agree (because Donald Fagan preaches it), make sure everyone is exactly in tune to whatever synths you're using.

[iLaw]

I presume you only fed the click to the drummer, and most likely through headphones. This may sound like a strange idea, but try rehearsing a bit with the click fed through speakers (not headphones) so everyone can hear it and sync to it. And use a relevant instrumental percussion sound, like a high hat, rather than a click. You'll probably immediately discover that everybody's time is a little loose. You'll probably also discover that it takes a while to get the sound you want as a band with the tempo locked in. Anyway, once the entire band (not just the drummer) gets the feel of the song with a tighter groove, it may take some of the time-regulating pressure off the drummer and he can put back some of the same energy he had before.

[Michelle ggurl]

As others have stated here, it takes a really good drummer who is adept at playing to a click to sound like he's (or she's) not playing to one.

 

Last year we recorded a whole album to click. It came out very well, if I must say, but with a lesser drummer it would've been ... well ... lesser.

 

Your other option is to play live without click, then import the drum tracks (or some of them) into Ableton Live (or Pro Tools if you have a TDM system, more on that below). Ableton lets you "find" the beat and then you can implement whatever MIDI thing you want based on this. But this becomes a major production situation, and how much time (and money) are you going to spend on this?

 

A word of caution too: if you drummer veers in tempo considerably, this could be a very challenging process.

 

Regarding Pro Tools, there is a plug-in called Beat Detective that "finds" the tempo for you, but it's only available on systems that are higher end than LE. So you'd have to have a TDM or HD rig at your disposal. Other recording software may be able to use a VST plug-in that does this, but I am unfamiliar with that. My world ends at Pro Tools and Ableton, so maybe someone else here who knows more can add info. Learjeff gave some good info above on this.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by dabowsa:

As I'm sure Gas will agree (because Donald Fagan preaches it), make sure everyone is exactly in tune to whatever synths you're using.

 

I didn't mean to sound harsh in my first post. It's not my style.

 

However, I think we're all in agreement that learning to play to a click is a good thing, but it does take practice.

 

I also agree that, to my ears, it's easier to synchronize to a hi-hat sound or something more musical than a standard click.

 

And finally, I must agree that this is very beneficial. However, don't let the click be your master. Music is full of retards and tacets and other tempo-adjusting beasties that make it emotional. You don't want to strip the emotion from the music by having the computer be your master. As Jeff said, you can write your own tempo map.

 

Also, many folks swear that the tempo increases just a bit when you're entering a chorus and decreases a little when you're leaving the chorus and going back to the verse. The jury is still out on that one. Perhaps it's true for some songs and not for others. What do you folks think about this?

 

But, as I mentioned before, don't let anything kill the groove. Get the tracks laid down early - before your energy level falls.

 

Thank you. And may your beer always be cold.

 

Tom

 

 

EDIT: This post has been edited for eagle-eye Michelle (GeekGurl). I'll admit that I am in love with Michelle and without her I would be lost.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

Music is full of ritards ...

Heh. you said ritard ...

 

Hi Gas!

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

Music is full of ritards ...

Heh. you said ritard ...

 

Hi Gas!

Where would I be without you Michelle - love of my life?

 

I spelled it wrong, but you know what I meant.

 

I'm going back to change it now.

 

Thanks for catching that.

 

I hope all is well with you.

 

Tom

[Michelle ggurl]

Hey Tom, I'm doing well, thank you. Actually, I wasn't trying to catch a typo, I just thought it was a funny statement to isolate. Maybe that's just me being too sick or something ...

 

So you flatter me way too much. Not that I mind ...

[linwood]

I got a gig once where I had to replace a drum track that was recorded to two inch. The "live" drummer wasn't playing to a click and it was a bitch of a job. His track didn't sound bad to me, but the guy who wrote to tune felt that it wasn't quite tight enough. The client was probably right.. he has ears for days.. great musician. It's times like that when you wish they had used a click.

[burningbusch]

What software will you be using for the MIDI sequencing and FX? A program like Protools has Beat Detective which can be used two ways.

 

a) If the track was recorded without click you can have it create a tempo map based some aspect of the drum rhythm, i.e. kick, snare, hat. The tempo map will look a little weird in that measure #1 might be 98.77, meas #2 99.01, etc. It's just picking the slight variations of a real drummer hitting at slightly different times. Using it in this manner, the original drum track is not affected in any way, you are just creating a tempo map for MIDI and tempo based FXs.

 

b)Use Beat Detective in the same manner, but this time you're going to quantize the drums so that they match an exact tempo. In the above example you might choose 98.80. Beat Detective chops up (slices) the drums into whatever sub beat you determine and then quantizes them to the tempo. It uses crossfades to smooth out the slices.

 

Other sequencing programs do this, at least to some extent. I just happen to know Protools and Beat Detective and have used both ways with good results. It can be tricky and expect to spend some time figuring it out, but if the click isn't working it certainly is an alterantive and is used in studios daily.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

Regarding Pro Tools, there is a plug-in called Beat Detective that "finds" the tempo for you, but it's only available on systems that are higher end than LE.

GG, Protools LE now comes with a version of Beat Detecitve. I don't when they started including it or in what way it differs from the TDM version.

 

Busch.

[Manhunter]

I recall reading an article in Sound on Sound I think where they were showing you how to write groove templates for a sequencer. The guy writing the article had analysed some James Brown recordings and measured out the tempos for different sections. The rhythm section speeded up for the bridge sections then slowed down again for the verses - this was something the casual listener may not pick up on as the variations can be quite subtle but this is what gives the band the energy and drive you hear.

 

This is different to speeding up or dragging through a song - many's the time I've played with a drummer (always blame the drummer!!) who rushed; when the sax player comes back in with the melody it can almost be unplayable if the tempo has speeded up that much!!

 

Never recorded with a click track but agree that practising with one is very beneficial and definitely not something you pick up over night.

 

Good luck with the recording - I vote don't use the click this time.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

GG, Protools LE now comes with a version of Beat Detecitve. I don't when they started including it or in what way it differs from the TDM version.

 

Busch.

Cool, good to know! What's the earliest version of LE that can run it, do you know?

[BluesKeys]

I think most here agree, that to work with a click track now is a recipe for disaster. Play it like you play it live, let it groove, don't worry be happy. Have fun don't stess.

 

If you have done your songs live for some time and people respond to them then they will work out in the studio. It becomes a disaster when you start to change things up because your recording it. Just find the pocket and let her rip.

 

I had an engineer tell me once that it's always better with a little hair on it. Don't try to make it sterile, or there won't be any life in it.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

Originally posted by burningbusch:

GG, Protools LE now comes with a version of Beat Detecitve. I don't when they started including it or in what way it differs from the TDM version.

 

Busch.

Cool, good to know! What's the earliest version of LE that can run it, do you know?

Beat Detective LE came out with 6.7

 

7.0 is around the corner with lots of new MIDI stuff.

 

Busch.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by dream:

Have fun don't stess.

 

...it's always better with a little hair on it.

My goodness... Such wonderful fodder for future signature lines.

 

Thanks Jim.

[StillFightingIt]

Thank you so much for your wonderful pieces of advice seriously, I was confused about what was best to do and I think you're right. We play damn well live without a click so that's how we record it. As for the drummer, he stays within 3-5bpm either side of the tempo during the song which I don't think is too bad. I'm using Cubase SX 3 but I'm 90% sure you can create an odd tempo map in it also so I'll be looking into that.

 

The thing was, I asked our drummer whether he could play to a click or not, and he told me yes. Only yesterday did we try it before recording (to actually decide on the bpm per song) and yeh he could play in time etc.

 

Now the other thing is, we are putting parts down one at a time (except we will all be playing with the drummer during his recording) and for the sections with no drum lines he'll be clicking sticks or tapping the hi-hat which we can remove later with a volume envelope.

 

I'm feeling a lot better about this now.

Thanks

[eric]

Yes, playing to a click is a challenge for all, as lots of people have stated. A band I was in for many years did actually record a couple of original albums with click (and a couple without). One of them was an elaborate multi-month project that was quite expensive (partially subsidized by a label). We spent WEEKS getting the basic drum and bass tracks down with the click (very perfectionist approach and only working a few days a week). Before this, we laid down "scratch tracks" as a live band to get the right energy going for the purpose of the drums and bass, with intention of nitpicking the keys, guitar, horns and vocals later.

 

Once the rhythm tracks were right, we tracked the other instruments, so I had a couple of weeknights to make a roadtrip to the studio and do grand piano, Hammond and synth tracks. A couple of the band guys were around, but it was basically ME in the studio playing along to the drums and bass that were tracked earlier. It was a rather disconcerting experience. When you isolate things with a click track, every little nuance is exposed and repeating the parts until you get it perfect is nerve-racking! Made me have a whole lot of respect for full-time studio musicians that are still playing live and not relying on sequencers. My playing was more inhibited, though I'm happy to report a few "happy accidents" in which cool new stuff made it to tape.

 

That experience built character and made it easier the next time. But I relished the earlier items that were less precise and more "live." For your purposes, turn off that click track and do it live. Forget about quantizing parts for sure!

 

Regards,

Eric

[Mr. Nightime]

I did an album with a drummer that had a hard time playing to a click. In fact, he had a hard time getting a shuffle feel right. (I shudder to think about it even now.)

The way we got around it was to run a basic drum groove with bass drum, hi hat & snare from my M1 through the headphones for everyone. This gave him something to match up to, and it was more obvious when the tempo varied too much. Not only did it help us to get the tracks down, it cured his shuffle deficiency.

[StillFightingIt]

Okay so i've learnt how to adjust an audio track to make it fit the tempo map in Cubase SX. Can anyone here tell me how I can do this to multiple tracks at once. The drums will be recorded on 10 tracks and instead of having to go through each of the 10 for each song and adjust the timing I'd like to be able to adjust it all at once but still retain seperate tracks for mixing. Any suggestions?

[Michelle ggurl]

I don't understand what you mean. Use the same session for all 10 songs? Use the same drum tracks for all 10 songs??

 

I would think the tempo is going to vary by song and performance. BTW, if you're not using a click, best to make sure at least the bass player is playing along with the drummer so those two performances are as tight and together as possible.

 

EDIT: If you mean, you don't want to have to adjust the tempo map for each take, don't. wait till you have the "keeper" take, then do your tempo map adjustments just for that take. Do that for each song. I hope this helps ...

[iLaw]

I think what he means is that the drums on a single take will be spread out over 10 channels (tracks), e.g. one or two tracks for the bass drum, one or two tracks for snare, etc. He then wants to adjust (and/or tempo map?) all ten drum channels (tracks) in one pass in Cubase rather than doing it channel by channel. I have no Cubase experience so I can't answer the question, but I think that is the question.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by StillFightingIt:

Okay so i've learnt how to adjust an audio track to make it fit the tempo map in Cubase SX. Can anyone here tell me how I can do this to multiple tracks at once. The drums will be recorded on 10 tracks and instead of having to go through each of the 10 for each song and adjust the timing I'd like to be able to adjust it all at once but still retain seperate tracks for mixing. Any suggestions?

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. In my post above I described two methods. If you're trying to do method a, then you're not adjusting the audio to the tempo map but rather creating a tempo map based on the audio. The original drum tracks will not change in any way, you just now have a tempo map which can be used if you're adding additional MIDI keyboard parts and/or tempo based FXs. If you're trying to do method b, you will be adjusting all of the drum tracks to fit a rigid tempo. This might affect the groove. I don't know how this is done in Cubase, sorry.

 

Based on your conclusion that restricting the drummer to the click wasn't working, I don't know that method b is going to work for you either.

 

Busch.

[JeffLearman]

Buschman is right -- do NOT adjust the audio to fit a fixed tempo -- adjust the tempo map so that the bars fall on the beat in the audio tracks.

 

If you can FIND the beat ...

 

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by learjeff:

Buschman is right -- do NOT adjust the audio to fit a fixed tempo -- adjust the tempo map so that the bars fall on the beat in the audio tracks.

 

If you can FIND the beat ...

 

Been there... Done that.

 

Sometimes music + technology = disaster. In my band this is called a TRAIN WRECK.

 

Matter of fact, I just about KILLED my best friend regarding MIDI matters of this type.

 

It was when Cakewalk was an application that ran under PC-DOS.

 

This is why I am so adamantly opposed to quantizing most ANYTHING.

 

You're going along splendidly with your music, then someone wants to throw in a little experimentation with MIDI. "Oh, you're timing's not perfect. Here, let's let Cakewalk QUANTIZE it to perfection." Bull-oney.

 

or...

 

"Your bass line doesn't seem to line up with the kick drum. Let's isolate those parts and quantize them both - but leave everything else alone." MORE BULL-ONEY.

 

Syncing to a click is a wonderful thing when it's done correctly. But when technology takes over a recording session and decisions are made with more weight to technical matters than musical ones, you might as well just throw the whole thing in the trash.

 

I'm referring to pop/rock/jazz/blues - not marches or electronic music.

 

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Yeah, my band Cursed Eternity went into studio last March, and we tried, once, to play to a click. We quickly realized that if the drummer wasn't used to it, it wasn't going to happen. Studio time is not the time you want to waste learning how to play to a click. We went ahead and did it without, and after a few takes, we were satisfied with it. If it sounds good the way you're doing it, why change it?

 

It took us a full weekend to do Drums, Guitars, and Bass. Vocal scratch tracks got in, but we had to go back for vocals and keyboards a few weeks later. Time flys fast in the studio, make the most of it, don't dick around too much:p

 

(oh and yeah, I'm not big on quantize for most parts. Kinda takes the life out of it)