SM57 or cheap condenser?

[bloodsample]

Hi all,

 

ok, I know this is the wrong forum but I tried posting in the EQ forums and my question remained near the top and unreplied for a good month now so I'm losing my faith in those people.

 

That said, just a quick question:

For a 100$ budget, should I get the ever-popular SM-57 dynamic or go for one of them 100$ condensers? (ie M-Audio nova, Samson S03, AT2020, etc..)

 

I don't want ultra pro quality (obviously) but I do want something that will be beat my broken 20$ sony dynamic

 

I just want to lay down some vocal, acoustic guitar, melodica recordings. (most of you will probably say condenser cause of guitar, but I just want to know if a cheap condenser will do better than a fairly good dynamic.)

 

If you say condenser, then which do you recommend? (I know about the AKG, Shure and Neumann, so let's keep the suggestions in my price range please )

 

Thank you in advance and I appologize for bringing this to the keyboard forum, but you guys are just so quick to reply that I couldn't resist

 

(If you think about it, this is sortof a keyboard related question as I am recording a melodica which has a keyboard! )

[ITGITC]

condenser.

 

I don't know which one.

[Prague]

You can check the 2nd hand market and get a 57 (instruments) AND a 58 (vocals, etc) for less than $100. They're built like tanks, sound good, and don't require batteries or phantom power (like condensors).

[MidLifeCrisis]

I am not a condenser fan myself. Each brand tends to bring its own coloration to the sound.

The Shures give you faithful reproduction all the time.

Why are you not considering the 58?

It's the old workhorse. They go for $99 new.

[David Loving]

I'd get a 57, no question. I use them for vocals and like them. They are quite reliable, durable, and are pro-quality. My favorite mic. Plus, it looks cool. You get a cheap condenser you got another cheap mic. Get a 57 and you have a quality Shure classic that will make you sound good.

[ITGITC]

Folks, the 57 or the 58, either one will impart coloration on the voice/instrument that's being recorded. That's simply a fact of life. You may like it, you may not. I think the 58 is great for vocals - particularly when used in a live setting with a PA. The 57 is certainly a classic for use with a snare or micing a guitar amp. Would I use a 57 to record piano, for instance? Nope. It doesn't have the range and, in my opinion, the coloration is objectionable.

 

Although I don't own one of the (fairly) new, inexpensive large diaphram condenser microphones, I have read reviews and talked with folks who have them. The word on the street is that many of these mics do, in fact, sound pretty good. They're certainly worth a try in recording various instruments.

 

And that is the bottom line: each particular instrument and/or voice requires a match with a certain microphone. It usually takes trial and error to find the one that's going to sound best. You can't get around it.

 

If I were building a mic collection for recording today I certainly would have a pair of 58 and 57 models. However, I would beg, borrow, or well, I wouldn't steal a mic, but that's just me.

 

The point is that at less than $100 a 58 or 57 is a good microphone for PA use and some recording applications. However, for recording exclusively, large and small diaphram microphones - and some ribbon designs - are the choices that need your consideration.

 

Mix Magazine, www.mixonline.com , is one of the best resources for information on this subject. To help substantiate my claims, I refer you to just one of the excellent articles I found when I did a search for 'condenser' at their site. CLONK HERE

 

Have a good weekend.

 

Tom

[DirtyRubberDuck]

If you just starting buying mics, which it sounds like you are, I would go for the Shure dynamics. You can always use an SM57 and/or SM58 in pretty much any situation and you will always want to have one around. They are rugged, easy to use (no batteries/phantom power req'd), and give you a middle-of-the-road sound. I keep one in my gig bag at all times. The low end condensers are a riskier proposition. They may or may not be adequate for any given situation. Of course, I'm just conservative by nature . . .

 

DRD

[DafDuc]

I'd get a 57. I've got a locker of 12 mics or so, but the 57 is by far the most versatile. If I could only have one mic, that'd be it.

 

If you decide to get a condensor, the Studio Projects B-1 is a great LD condensor at $99.

 

Best,

 

Daf

[Hammodel AV]

Definitely the 57, at about $89 at Musicians Friend. I also recommend the MXL990, at $59, a cheap and servicable condensor mic.

 

Brian

[Garrafon]

Its my understanding that the Beta 57s are an excellent, diverse mic. They have been appearing on stage with some of music's best. I would look into that.

[DafDuc]

But over $100 last I checked...

[Garrafon]

Yeah, its about another $40. But, come on, who are we kidding? When was the last time any of us were able to stay within budget!

[DafDuc]

Point taken...

[ITGITC]

Well, if you're not going to stay within budget, get both.

 

I've got a 57. Should have bought two. I like it. I use it to mic percussion in the band.

 

But I tried it for recording piano in my living room and was disappointed.

 

The 57 is a versatile mic. It can be used for many applications - probably many more than a large diaphram condenser mic. However, for recording anything with lots of complex harmonics in the higher frequencies - such as acoustic guitar (especially 12-string), violins, ride cymbals, piano, harpsichord, melodica, etc., my go-to mic would probably be a condenser - not necesarily a large diaphram condenser.

 

The trick is, as I said earlier, to try many mics and choose the one that sounds best to YOUR ears for that particular application.

 

So, don't get me wrong. A first purchase, best bang for the buck mic, would be the Shure SM57 and Shure SM58. But for all the varied recording applications that one is faced with, it would be wise to get educated on the sound of all the choices available - particularly the new, inexpensive condenser mics.

 

Which one is best? I don't know.

 

I DO know is that I didn't like the recording I made of my piano with a SM57. And, yes, I tried it on a boom stand in many varied positions around the piano. For a snare or guitar amp - yes. For a piano - no.

 

For acoustic guitar - try both the 57 and a condenser mic and choose which one sounds best to your ears...within the mix. Be sure to try many positions and many different distances from the guitar. I'll bet that you'll end up using a condenser for micing the acoustic guitar.

 

And if I'm wrong, well, I'll pay Sven Golly's sheep rental fee for a WEEK! That's big bucks too.

 

Tom

[Garrafon]

Good points Tom, but the Betas are supposed to be more versatile. I have the Beta 58 I use for my vocals. I like it very much. Some tech heads I run with are in love with the Beta 57s for vocals and micing equipment. Personally, I haven't tested them out, but that's the word on the street.

 

Of course Northeastern streets are different than Southern streets!

[MidLifeCrisis]

And if I'm wrong, well, I'll pay Sven Golly's sheep rental fee for a WEEK!

The perfect gift for Tom and Sven

 

http://www.rock-xtreme.com/sheep.jpg

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

And if I'm wrong, well, I'll pay Sven Golly's sheep rental fee for a WEEK! That's big bucks too.

You're absolutely not wrong, Tom... which is a shame, because these bills are killing me!!

 

 

Cheers,

SG

[ITGITC]

 

If you guys were here, the next round would be mine!

 

Happy Friday!

[Byrdman]

I wouldn't use an SM57 for vocals as it tends to pop - but you can always add a cheap pop filter.

 

As a first mic that is otherwise a good choice.

 

For vocals, I like Audix's OM2. Its about 100 bucks. Other people I know recommend the OM6 so try both.

 

I would not start with a condensor mic. A dynamic is much more general purpose and also more rugged. Singing into a condensor that is not designed for vocals can be a problem as moisture can accumulate on the diaphram.

[bloodsample]

I think I'm gonna go for the SM57 because of the popularity.

 

I would go for condensor but there are just too many choices at the 100$ level and none of them really seemed to stick out in this thread.

 

The keyboard corner rocks!

Thanks all

[ITGITC]

OK... Pick a reply:

 

1. Great. Don't take my advice. I'm taking my toys and going home.

 

2. You'll be sowwwwwwy.

 

3. I liked the SM57 from the get-go and told ya so. I told ya so.

 

4. Something about sheep, I dunno yet what it's gonna be. But when I figure it out, you'll really like it.

 

5. Wait until December. That's when, every year, Shure runs a rebate when you buy a SM57 or SM58. (umm, that's true.)

 

(I'm having mixed emotions about this thread.)

 

 

Tom

[bloodsample]

Tom: (Can I call you Tom? too late I guess )

Thanks for the replies, the thing is, I was looking for a mic that the majority would recommend, and seen as I'm in a hurry to make a purchase and there isn't one condenser mic at 100$ that seems to stick out, I should stick with the SM57 which most people seem to recommend... *inhales deeply*

 

Hope that makes sense,

Once again, thanks for your replies.

[JimmyJimJim]

The good thing about the 57 is it will always come in handy, no matter how many other mic's you get. HOWEVER i would argue that it colours the sound MORE than a simple condenser... the colouration actually quite suits vocals in general, and is a fine all-round mic for live use, but recording an acoustic guitar, horn etc. i would way prefer a reasonable but cheap condenser. Hey it depends on your setup too though, what sound card u using?

 

You sound pretty convinced, but if you wanna try another option check out an AKG S1000 - i use them for drum overheads and acoustic instruments. The Audix equivalents of 57's are also worth checking out if you want a comparison.

 

Happy recording! You'll be happy either way methinks

[JeffLearman]

I recorded nearly all the acoustic guitar and all the vocals on my CD [click here to listen] using an SM57. That includes my dreadnaught and some great Dobro work by the inimitable John Currie (track 2, for example).

 

I now also have a Studio Projects B3 (same as B1 but with multiple patterns), and I'd probably use that for recording the guitar today but not the vocals.

 

My suggestion is start with the SM58 or SM57. (Get the SM58 if you're not really good at working a mike to avoid pops on vocals.)

 

Regardless which mike you get, the next thing you'll need is a decent mike preamp. For my CD, I just used built-in preamps on my old TASCAM mixer or else my MOTU 828, and I have to say that they tend to make the two mikes sound rather similar. Sure, there are differences -- the SP has more highs, the SM57 has a midrange boost, and the SM57 has a warmish tone when when blasted a bit. But I think I need a better preamp to make either of these mikes sound like they really do. (I see a Studio Projects preamp in my future ...)

 

If you like really "crystal" bright, crisp acoustic guitar, the SM57 won't quite do it and a mike like the SP would be much better (like Tom said, especially for 12-string). For a full-bodied acoustic guitar sound, though, I think it's great. On the other hand, I don't like the sound of the SP on my vocals, it makes my voice sound thinner and I can't seem to compensate using EQ.

 

So, for mike #1, I recommend the SM57 or SM58. If you have $200 to spend, I might be tempted to go with a Rode NT1-A, which is an excellent all-purpose mike. But I'd probably go with an SM57 and an SP B1 for more variety, and save the Rode (or possibly SP C1) for later.

 

Tom is right that a piano sucks through an SM57. It's very hard to mike a piano (especially with only one mike). But the SM57/SM58 is NOT the mike for the job.

 

Another thing is that, while an SM57/58 is colored, it's a color that's present in so many hit recordings, it's a tone we're all used to hearing. An industry workhorse.

 

Since SM57/58 mikes are robust, you can risk buying a used one. I'd be less comfortable with a used LDC -- one drop and it's a different mike.

(The Shure dynamics can also change a bit after a drop, but they're usually still quite good sounding. Just a slightly different color. I have two and they sound different, but both good. On a colored mike to begin with, a little color change is tolerable. On a flat mike like SP B1, it's a bad thing.)

 

Finally, there are some pretty good SM57/58 knockoffs, such as Shure's own low-cost versions for about half the price, and some Chinese copies in the $30 range I've heard good things about. It's not rocket science, and after over 40 years, the patents have expired and I don't even consider it ripping off Shure (nor does US law).

 

Maybe someone here knows a particular brand -- having not heard them myself I can't say.

 

And yes, everyone loves the Beta 58. I've never heard anyone say they prefer a 58 to a beta 58. never had a chance to A/B them myself, though.

[bloodsample]

dilemma...

 

I've changed my mind again.. but I haven't really made it up yet

 

Why I'm considering...

 

..a condenser: You guys said SM57s are bad for piano recording. Well I don't plan on recording my upright anytime soon because it's upstairs in the living room and my "studio" is in the basement, but I'd still like to know that I could. Also, learjeff: I do want that bright guitar recording, so I'll look more closely into condensers.

 

..a dynamic: The SM57 is so damn popular that I don't think I can go wrong.. that's about it Oh, and also that there isn't a condenser for 100$ that is as well regarded as the SM57.

 

I know I shouldn't base my choice on popularity but I just want basic recordings that I will use for myself (ie not recording demos or anything) so as long as it gives me relatively noiseless recordings, I'm fine. My friend brought his SM58 and the vocal recordings we did were surprisingly noiseless but I didn't really like the guitar recordings. Pretty good though, considering my basement is not soundproofed.

 

JimmyJimJim: I'm using an audiophile 2496 and running mics through a small 12 chan behringer mixer.

 

Learjeff: Thanks for the advice, your recordings sound good, I'm guessing you recorded in a soundproof room? I really like chords to lori's song, I think it would sound even better with some nice lyrics on top. If you ever decide to add lyrics to it, and record it, let me know

 

I'm sorry to have to push this thread further.

I'll put into consideration all your suggestions, thank you.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by bloodsample:

dilemma...

 

 

I know I shouldn't base my choice on popularity but...

bloodsample - yes you should.

 

Let other people spend their money experimenting. Then you can read about what THEY use and buy that. Mix Magazine has been a great resource for me for years and years. I have found that if I read up on what the guys in the big studios are using - and their techniques - I won't make HUGE mistakes.

 

The Shure SM57 and SM58 have been around forever. Really. Since before LearJeff was born - and that's a long, long time. You cannot go wrong with either of these microphones.

 

The beta versions I have not tried, so I'm not going to comment. However, I have heard many people speak highly of their tonal quality.

 

By all means, get the 57 first. You won't go wrong using it to record most instruments. It's also great for live work. When you can afford a 2nd mic, consider the 58 or maybe the Beta 58.

 

But when you've got a little more money and are ready to try something different from a dynamic microphone, get a condenser that you've read good reviews about. They're different for sure. I will also say that they may not be quite as versatile as a 57, but that's OK. Because before you're really, really old - like MikeT156, you'll have a SLEW of microphones. And I guarantee you'll find that some are good for some things, others are good for, well... other things.

 

Now stop reading this bullshit and go to Guitar Center (or someplace you like to spend money) and buy a 57 with a nice long cable. Come back and tell us how right we were, 'cause that's what we LIVE FOR!!

 

No kidding.

 

Tom

 

PS You can call me Tom, Gas, ITGITC, or Tommy (like my friends in the Eastern part of the state do). Just don't call me to supper if it's cold... (or something).

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by bloodsample:

dilemma...

 

I've changed my mind again.. but I haven't really made it up yet

 

Just remember, this won't be your last mic. Mics are like candy - you can't buy just one.

 

I have 9. That's two more than I have stands for (got to fix that :-) ) A couple of those are just cheap utility mics I don't mind putting out for a jam. The rest cover various bases - large diagphram condensor, small diagphram condenser (2 each). Close proximity vocal (the OM2 and a Sennheiser) and the SM57.

 

Would really like a ribbon and bound to get a RodeNT at some point.

[JeffLearman]

Right, and right, to both posts above.

 

I recorded all that in the studio nook of my family room. It's an old house (1920), with wood floors and still some plaster walls that haven't been wallboarded over (and others that have been). So, some of that ambience is natural, but a lot of it is just simple stereo reverb (n-Track's FASoft Reverb, a great little DX plugin).

 

For both vocals and acoustic guitar, I highly recommend stereo reverb, with emphasis on early reflections rather than tails to create a nice stereo image without adding too much mud. I'm sure that with a lot of investigation, I could find a impulse-based reverb to give me the image and a more clear and open sounding mix.

 

The SP B1 with a decent preamp (like SP's VTB-1 for $130), along with plenty of experimentation with mike placement and room treatment, should be able to give you that crisp acoustic tone. With the SM57 you can boost the treble a bunch and that helps (listen to my cut "Survive" for nice crisp tone especially on low notes). But it's not the "buns of steel" sound popular for acoustic guitar in heavy metal intros (a way cool sound -- I can live without the rest of those songs, though!)

 

BTW, Tom -- I didn't know that SM57 was actually older than dirt.

[DafDuc]

Luvvvv the VTB-1...

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by learjeff:

BTW, Tom -- I didn't know that SM57 was actually older than dirt.

Well, I dunno. The SM58 was introduced in 1966, according to their website. I think the SM57 came out before that.

 

I have an email out to the good folks at Shure. I'm sure they'll respond before the end of the day.

 

Tom

 

 

EDIT: I found it! 1965 was when the 57 was introduced. It's right there on their web page and I simply overlooked it.

 

HERE IS THE LINK.

 

When I was just a weeee lad, my brother booked bands and held huge parties in tobacco warehouses in Eastern NC. (Long story. Ask me if you want to know the details.)

 

Anyway, he booked The Showmen (39-21-46) one night and they all used SM57 mics. That was back in the late sixties.

 

Yes. They call me Dirt. TomDirt.