Check out this killer Rick Wakeman Solo

[Steve in KS]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

LOL! I don't know that I'm arrogant; just realistic. In the above clip it's all mostly just argeggiated triads and not much else. Granted they're very deftly played at a ridiculous tempo; no question. But man does not live by technique alone. I'm sorry it offends your hero worship, but there's just not a lot musically going on there.

This statement reflects a legitimate point of view as does your first post.

But saying that Wakeman is "stealing the audience's money" because his solo composition is somehow not musically legitimate to you is just snobbery. Its as if you think he's pulling something over on them or ripping them off some way, which is a ridiculous notion.

And referring to the audience as "ignorant" is just insulting. What are they supposed to do? Stomp off in an intellectual huff and demand their money back because they find his composition amateurish?

It's not hero worship to recognize Wakeman's legitimate standing as a established and excellent performer.

[marino]

Originally posted by gangsu:

You caught me, Marino. I used "ignorant" in the slang sense of meaning "rude". That would be the height of ignorance on my part to suggest that any of you don't know who Rick Wakeman is. In either sense of the word!

 

With the benefit of hindsight, I think it really was him. Why not? I know of at least one guy on this forum he's personal friends with.

Oops. Sorry Sue - I misunderstood.

Anyway, if it really was Rick, it would be amusing. On the net, you find plenty of people who use famous people's names as their nick; when the real one decides to show, no one believes it's him/her! Can you imagine - Rick Wakeman registers at the Keyboard Corner and nobody cares!!

 

I seem to recall another episode too, from an even earlier time; somebody from Rick's entourage came to the forum, asking for a MiniMoog on loan for a few days. IIRC, the only compensation he offered for the loan was Rick's signature on the instrument. He was treated rather rudely as well.

[Immo]

Maybe he was posting during their set. It seems I heard a story about the Tormato tour perhaps where he went out and got a beer and a burger in the middle of the show either that, or just ate one by his keyboard rig during the show.

 

I used to have a napkin where he wrote down the Promega 3 and Korg Triton as his recommended keyboards for my circumstances when I met him at an album signing. I threw it away because it was used. I wonder how much that would've gotten on eBay though.

[gangsu]

and on one of his posts he recommends an S80? Had to be an impostor.

 

That's ok, Marino. Glad we got that sorted out.

[Prague]

Odd, though, that I'm supposed to fall to my knees at the I-IV-V black blues players. Why? Everyone is afraid to say anything other than they have a lot of "soul" or something. The typical sacred cows.

 

Watch what happens if I say:

 

Ray Charles never really impressed me with much with his piano playing.

[ITGITC]

OK, I'll admit, I'm a little crazy. But, I think about you guys and the posts you write all during the day.

 

Today, coming back from lunch, while looking for a place to park, I was thinking about cnegrad and the remarks he has made here. And I have to agree that Rick Wakeman played a lot of notes in a very short amount of time (impressive indeed!). And I agree that musically, well... perhaps he could have played something even more musical. Is Keith Emerson more melodic and/or interesing? I dunno. Perhaps.

 

But, the clip inspired me. And what I want to know is - Just how does someone come up with a riff, or series of riffs such as this? Where do you start and, besides lots of practice, how do you pull it off?

 

It's a question that I doubt anyone can answer, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

 

Tom

[MidLifeCrisis]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

how do you pull it off?

If you can get an answer to that question I'll buy you lots of beers

 

I could probably learn to play each of the segments he does individually. It's having the creative ability to piece the compositions together in an interesting fashion combined with the technical prowess to pull it off with amzing accuracy and speed.

 

Once you find the magic incantation to chant to make it happen it should be easy.

[marino]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

Is Keith Emerson more melodic and/or interesing? I dunno. Perhaps.

More melodic, not always; Rick is usually very melodic.

More rich and interesting harmonically and compositionally, no doubt.

But, the clip inspired me. And what I want to know is - Just how does someone come up with a riff, or series of riffs such as this? Where do you start and, besides lots of practice, how do you pull it off?

There's a somewhat wrong part in your question, and it's "besides lots of practice". Practice is what it is, mostly. Compositionally, that solo hasn't a lot of depth, or complexity. The repeated notes are played on arpeggiated triads for the most part, so that doesn't require a lot of imagination. Also, I'm sure the solo is wholly planned in advance. What's impressive is the speed and precision, and that's mostly practice. Fast repeated notes, or single-trilling as he likes to call it, is a kind of Wakeman's speciality - a bit like Billy Cobham's single-strike rolls.

[bloodyMary]

I'd say his (Wakeman's)technique is superb for a synth player, I'd kill a man to have one. but compared to, say, classically trained pianist, this solo wasn't impressive at all.

 

This's true - most of keyboard heroes of present time (especially the metal/prog people - Rudess, Warman, Johanson, Staropoli) - are quite so-so players compared to classically trained pianists.

 

Overall, synth players have a lower technique standarts compared to classical crowd - but it's not about the technique, it's about being creative.

 

I consider myself a so-so synth player, and a ZERO pianist.

[Synthguy]

Rick isn't my favorite keyboardist, but then again, I don't have one. But I would love to have one tenth of his skill, speed and compositional ability.

 

One thing I am glad of is that as much of a smart alec as I am, I still manage to have one tenth of some people's arrogance.

[marino]

Originally posted by bloodyMary:

I'd say his (Wakeman's)technique is superb for a synth player, I'd kill a man to have one. but compared to, say, classically trained pianist, this solo wasn't impressive at all.

 

This's true - most of keyboard heroes of present time (especially the metal/prog people - Rudess, Warman, Johanson, Staropoli) - are quite so-so players compared to classically trained pianists.

 

Overall, synth players have a lower technique standarts compared to classical crowd - but it's not about the technique, it's about being creative.

 

I consider myself a so-so synth player, and a ZERO pianist.

Um.

 

It's true that generally speaking, *good* classical players have higher technique standards (emphasis on "good"). There's no "Gaspard de la Nuit" equivalent in the electronic keyboardist's repertoire.

However, as one who has spent time in both fields, let me add a few considerations in defense of keyboard players:

 

- Synth keybeds, both weighted and unweighted, require more precision in performance than pianos. After 30 or 35 years of playing both, I'm quite sure of this. This varies according to the sound you're playing, but basically, it depends on two things:

 

1) The nature of dynamics of synth sounds is generally narrower than on a piano, so if you hit a wrong note, even very lightly, it's going to stand out quite unpleasantly.

It's interesting that classical performances have been captured on the computer (from a MIDIed grand, I suppose) and they discovered that the excellent player had played a quantity of wrong notes, but those notes weren't noticeable from the audio recording. So as regard to mistakes, a piano is quite more forgiving.

2) The physical design of the synth keyboard is still far away from achieving the control that a piano gives you. Progresses have been made, especially with weighted keyboards, but the quality of unweighted, synth-style keyboards, for example, has been lowered in the last 10 years, in my opinion.

 

These two causes force the synth player to a more 'clinical' approach to performance, preventing him to achieve the same degree of virtuosity than a classical pianist, either in speed, complexity, or dynamic control.

 

- Many keyboard players in the rock field have a classical background. Unfortunately, a few of them have chosen to use just the showy side of this - Emerson being the exception in my opinion.

 

- Playing with a rock rhythm section forces the player to follow a certain rhythmic grid - he can't afford the elasticity a pianist have. Not that a great classical player doesn't have rhythm skills, of course; but they are of a different kind. Playing complex parts with heavy hand independence in a rock group is hard! Every part is going to be heard clearly, and it needs to be in the pocket. No sustain pedal to hide staggering notes in moments of panic...

 

- Pianists are dealing with one type of sound, and familiarize themselves with that family of sounds for their entire life. Yes, pianos can differ hugely from one another; but keyboardists have to deal with thousands of different sound *types*. This makes it more difficult for them to achieve that special level of control that is expected from classical pianists.

 

- Pianists have one fixed playing position, perfected during a lifetime. Keyboardists have to deal with different setups, different keybeds, different distance with the instruments, etc.

 

- Generally, classical players are allowed to prepare their music in advance, often for weeks or months if the piece is difficult. Rock players, on the other hand, are often required to come up with parts, arrangements, programming atc., pratically on the spot.

 

- Don't get me started about the relationship (or lack of it) that some classical pianist have with improvisation... that's another thread.

 

- That said - of course, as teenagers, we all switched to rock because of the girls... right?

[LithoJazzoSphere]

- That said - of course, as teenagers, we all switched to rock because of the girls... right?

If that was your goal, you picked the wrong instrument. The one you're looking for involves either 6 strings or just a small hand-held device.

[marino]

Originally posted by LithoJazzoSphere:

- That said - of course, as teenagers, we all switched to rock because of the girls... right?

If that was your goal, you picked the wrong instrument. The one you're looking for involves either 6-strings or just a small hand-held device.

Yes, but - mmm, how can I... see, I was...

All right, I just *can't* answer this without getting into some detail... let's leave it at this, OK?!

 

[MidLifeCrisis]

Thanks Marino,

 

Due to recent threads about Emerson and Wakeman and Al's thread about Valentina I have been going back and reviewing a lot of what I consider to be classic (not to be confused with classical) material to look for opportunities where I could improve. I began regretting that I did not seek out more classical training as these people clearly seemed to have the better chops and technique.

But I feel so much better after reading your post. Guess I should be proud of my rock heritage

[gangsu]

Marino, yes yes and yes! An acoustic piano is a million times more forgiving and on your side, than a digital.

 

Down with the old "try playing a grand for an evening if you think your digital is giving you a hard time" argument. It's a myth.

 

Thankyou once again for your excellent observations.

[iLaw]

While I agree with much of what Marino has said, come on folks, the reason why classical players tend to have more technical ability that rock players isn't because Steinways are easier to play than Tritons. I'm more inclined to say that it's because, as a group, classical players:

 

1. start earlier in life,

2. practicing longer and harder, on

3. music that is more technically demanding, under the tutelage of

4. teachers with far more technical skills and the teaching ability to pass those skills on to their students.

 

It ain't the keyboards.

 

Larry.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by iLaw:

It ain't the keyboards.

well if you're gonna put it that way, then level the playing field. Start with a Promega.

 

sorry couldn't resist. Just ask Rick.

[JeffLearman]

Good points, Marino.

 

My first two synths weren't velocity sensitive, and I could play them OK, while also playing my CP70. My third synth (Roland JX10) had an unweighted dynamic keyboard, and I was hopeless at it! As soon as I started trying to play with any kind of dynamics, my lazy ring fingers would brush keys and play real honkers. I hated the feel of that keyboard. Especially when also playing the CP70.

 

I get the impression that great synth players must have really good finger retraction muscles!

[Justin-n-case]

gangsu,

 

Just ask Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson, Herbie Hancock.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Justin-n-case:

gangsu,

 

Just ask Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson, Herbie Hancock.

Holy &*%^ dare I hope to believe that the forum has a new member who is "not from Missouri"?!

 

You might find this little anecdote interesting:

 

"When Herbie Hancock first saw [the Promega 3], he said "Yeah, right" and I said, no, you're actually a REAL piano player, and this isn't the standard issue thing", put the headphones on him, dialed in something I knew he could use, and told him to push it, to make it behave like a piano, not a computer. He was under there about 20 minutes and came out and said [something that cannot be repeated in a forum] and asked how soon he could get one".

 

Welcome, J-in-case!

[K K]

Originally posted by gangsu:

Start with a Promega.

Hey, I thought you liked my Kurzweil piano sound better.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Cydonia:

Hey, I thought you liked my Kurzweil piano sound better.

Oh I don't think so. I believe I said you play Chopin better on your Kurzweil than I do on any instrument!

 

It's been over a year since I played a Kurzweil. I was subbing for the keyboardist in a big band and it was his instrument. Sorry I can't give you an impression other than the recollection that I had a blast. At least it didn't spoil my fun.

[cnegrad]

Originally posted by Steve in KS:

Originally posted by cnegrad:

[qb] LOL! I don't know that I'm arrogant; just realistic. In the above clip it's all mostly just argeggiated triads and not much else. Granted they're very deftly played at a ridiculous tempo; no question. But man does not live by technique alone. I'm sorry it offends your hero worship, but there's just not a lot musically going on there.

First, an apology for my absence. Due to technical difficulties with both Roadrunner and Musicplayer, I was accidentally blocked from accessing any musicplayer websites for several days. During that time, I've had a chance to think this through. My response follows:

 

 

Steve in KS said...saying that Wakeman is "stealing the audience's money" because his solo composition is somehow not musically legitimate to you is just snobbery.

Steve, let's slow down for a minute. Yes, Wakeman is a groundbreaking prog rocker and yes, he's got ridiculous chops, and I'll take your word for it that other compositions of his have more "meat" on them. Understand that my initial responses were strictly due to the lack of musical content on that one video clip, and the seemingly disproportionate resulting amounts of oohs and ahhs from some in this discussion. I'm sorry, but given *only this clip* as a point of reference, I can't get excited about Wakeman's playing. They were only triadic arpeggios, after all.

 

But tempers flared, and I went too far.

 

 

Its as if you think he's pulling something over on them or ripping them off some way, which is a ridiculous notion.And referring to the audience as "ignorant" is just insulting.

Your right; I have absolutely no right insulting other's tastes in music. I was over the line and I apologize. I just should have said, "Sorry, but it's just not my taste", and moved on. I'll endeavor to think a bit more before I speak in the future. Maybe a bit less caffiene too. Once again, I apologize...

[Tusker]

I love Rick's stuff, but I think Cnegrad's original post woke up some brain cells for me. I like to see a different point of view. I agree, we need to be careful to not step on each other...

 

I think Rick does a few technical things very well. Almost perfect. The arpeggio's and onenote trlls are examples. He had done a lot of woodshedding before this ABWH tour. I think this is kind of close to the height of the Rock/Synth/Keyboardist iin some respects. However ...

 

Note the absence of custom programming, the lack of timbral variation within a patch, and the absence of any controlled vibrato/pitch bending. These aspects are part of a synthesists paradigm, and are missing here. Rick represents a period in rock history and is one of my heros but rock synthesis is broader than any one of the prog rock artists.

 

Jerry

[Gulliver]

http://www.hot.ee/spgulliver/offtopic.gif

 

Tusker, did you pass my "best regards!" to Michael Harris? I asked you to do this a while ago in another thread, but I think you missed my post...

(Sorry for OT)

[Tusker]

[OT]

 

Sure did. He was happy that you enjoyed his albums. Since he released Words Collide, we only met a few times, but it's been fun each time. Now that I've moved to the NE, we'll have to find some other ways of connecting. [end of OT]

 

So, um ... I just wanted to say that I think Marino's posts are on the mark as always. It's a lot harder to pull off a perfect sounding lead on a synth action keyboard ... especially especially playing monophonically on a polyphonic voice as Rick appears to be doing here.

 

Jerry

[Steve in KS]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

Originally posted by Steve in KS:

Originally posted by cnegrad:

[qb] LOL! I don't know that I'm arrogant; just realistic. In the above clip it's all mostly just argeggiated triads and not much else. Granted they're very deftly played at a ridiculous tempo; no question. But man does not live by technique alone. I'm sorry it offends your hero worship, but there's just not a lot musically going on there.

First, an apology for my absence. Due to technical difficulties with both Roadrunner and Musicplayer, I was accidentally blocked from accessing any musicplayer websites for several days. During that time, I've had a chance to think this through. My response follows:

 

 

Steve in KS said...saying that Wakeman is "stealing the audience's money" because his solo composition is somehow not musically legitimate to you is just snobbery.

Steve, let's slow down for a minute. Yes, Wakeman is a groundbreaking prog rocker and yes, he's got ridiculous chops, and I'll take your word for it that other compositions of his have more "meat" on them. Understand that my initial responses were strictly due to the lack of musical content on that one video clip, and the seemingly disproportionate resulting amounts of oohs and ahhs from some in this discussion. I'm sorry, but given *only this clip* as a point of reference, I can't get excited about Wakeman's playing. They were only triadic arpeggios, after all.

 

But tempers flared, and I went too far.

 

 

Its as if you think he's pulling something over on them or ripping them off some way, which is a ridiculous notion.And referring to the audience as "ignorant" is just insulting.

Your right; I have absolutely no right insulting other's tastes in music. I was over the line and I apologize. I just should have said, "Sorry, but it's just not my taste", and moved on. I'll endeavor to think a bit more before I speak in the future. Maybe a bit less caffiene too. Once again, I apologize...

Thanks. Your points are all valid ones. I'm no stranger to quick cynical comments off the top of my head. I have my own opinions on what musical acts would be a waste of money . .. I just wouldn't accuse any legitimate musicians of "stealing" the audiences money unless they're lip-syncing or something else that is faked or misrepresented.