MusicaL Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Alright, I think I want/need an Organ transplant. I've narrowed my choices down to the Vk-8m and the Electro rack --(I don't want another keyboard). What I like about the Vk8m is the drawbars. I also like the table top setting. I like the electro because it's red and has other sounds to offer as well, although I don't need these sounds half as much as I need a good B3. I'm really looking for the Whiter Shade of Pale sort of sound -- with a little more grunt... Of course I am thinking about waiting for the Stage, but that's a whole nother story.... In the meantime, what should I be looking for in each of these units? I want to be able to program presets and call them instantaneously during a gig, etc. I am also not a big tweaker. Which one is simpler to navigate? Which one has a better leslie sim? Which one's the more complete Organ package? aL Gear: Yamaha MODX8, Mojo 61, NS2 73, C. Bechstein baby grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 One of the keys to the Whiter Shade of Pale sound is the percussion. If I'm not mistaken, I THINK I read some negative comments on the Nord's percussion, but don't quote me on that. From the MP3's I've heard of the Electro, it sounds impressive and the Leslie SIM is outstanding. Whiter Shade of Pale should be no problem provided the percussion is good. I looked at the VK8m and thought is sounded a little "darker" than some of the clonewheels on the market right now. I kinda like the setup of it, and the drawbars are quick. You can pull out a whole bunch of drawbars on the fly with one clean swoop on the Roland. Nice unit. I don't know where in SoCal you are, but there's got to be places to try those out in the flesh where you live?? Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 I would go for a Voce V5 with a Motion Sound Pro3T. If you look hard on the used market, you can find both of these at significant savings. I think the Voce has a better core tone than any of the other clones (minus Leslie sim). The Voce is also the most compact solution. I am a big Electro enthusiast, but only for the keyboard version. Trying to "play" the Electro rack would be a huge pain, IMHO, unless you "set it and forget it" in a rack. If drawbar tweaking is important to you, you would need to position that behemoth 4-space monster right by your controller and then adapt to the drawbuttons. I absolutely love the Electro 61 that I've used for going on 3 years, but if I was in your shoes, I would grab a V5 and good Leslie sim in a heartbeat. I've actually owned 3 V5s and keep selling them to buy other stuff, but would like to own one again one day. It is the one to beat from an overall tone standpoint. The VK8m is fine, but it is pretty large and has some enormous wall-wart connections for power. It is an all-in-one solution, however, so if you were down to Electro Rack vs. VK8m, the VK8m is probably the way to go. Regards, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicaL Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 Mike, yeah, there are places I could try these units. I have actually played both the vk8 and the Electro, but I couldn't seem to get what I was looking for in terms of tone. I attribute that to user ignorance. I really haven't spent a lot of time on either board, but will take my headphones and head down to my local music store and try them both. Eric, I would have thought you'd recommend the Electro. I guess I am surprised (and appreciate the fact that) you didn't... As for the Voce V5 + motion sound Leslie Sim, it's a great solution but unfortunately it's out of the budget. It's just too bad the Voce doesn't come with built in leslie sim... aL Gear: Yamaha MODX8, Mojo 61, NS2 73, C. Bechstein baby grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daBowsa Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 I hear what Eric is saying about the VK8m being a more convenient rack unit when compared to the Electro Rack, but this guy, Kevin Anker doesn't seem to mind: http://www.kevinanker.net/images/hkslice.gif Be sure to check out his jukebox page - he uses the Electro to its fullest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Loving Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 The Voce V5+ has better percussion. It's the clone to go with if you don't want a Hammond XK3 IMHO. If I ever have to let go of my XK3 I'm going right back to Voce. "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Eric, I would have thought you'd recommend the Electro. I guess I am surprised (and appreciate the fact that) you didn't... As for the Voce V5 + motion sound Leslie Sim, it's a great solution but unfortunately it's out of the budget. It's just too bad the Voce doesn't come with built in leslie sim... Yes, it is out of budget if you buy new, but I suggest looking at the used market. In the past few months, I've seen V5s selling in the $450 range and Pro3Ts going for $300ish. Total investment in the $750-800 range. Regards, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicaL Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 Originally posted by eric: Yes, it is out of budget if you buy new, but I suggest looking at the used market. In the past few months, I've seen V5s selling in the $450 range and Pro3Ts going for $300ish. Total investment in the $750-800 range. Regards, Eric Thanks. I'll check it out. aL Gear: Yamaha MODX8, Mojo 61, NS2 73, C. Bechstein baby grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKeys Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Music* Al As a user of the Roland VK8M for over a year. I can honestly say it has been my best investment. I would have never learned to really play organ without it. Whiter shade is an easy one to get with the addition of distortion. I have in the past year bought the RD700 and a Motif and still love the VK8M most. I too didn't want to add another keyboard, yet I wanted draw bars and a decent leslie sound. Love it ================================================== Quote Eric The VK8m is fine, but it is pretty large and has some enormous wall-wart connections for power. It is an all-in-one solution, however, so if you were down to Electro Rack vs. VK8m, the VK8m is probably the way to go. -------------------------------------------------- Eric, My Vk8M doesn't have a wall-wart. All the the AC adapter stuff is inline like my laptop. As far as sitting on my controler, I velcro'd it to my old keyboard (ensonic ks32) but I just set it on the end of my RD700. no problems. Jimmy Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho NEW BAND CHECK THEM OUT www.steveowensandsummertime.com www.jimmyweaver.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 dream: Thanks for your post about the VK8m. When I played around with it in a music store, the sound seemed somewhat darker than some of the other clones that were running through the same systen. I checked the channel's bass/treble and they are set pretty much the same on the mixer everything was plugged in to. Any comments on the tone? Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisheye Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 I wasn't really impressed with the XK-3 when I tried it in store yesterday. The attack is much too hard, the sound should come up, not just be there instantly. Did I miss some setting? I also thought the tube distortion was very ugly. I actually liked the Viscount Db-3 (much to my own surprise). It's less than a third of the price of the XK-3, but sounded much friendlier to me. Very pure. It would need a real hammond-ish preamp to bark though, so I guess it's not what you are looking for (except if you happen to like the tube modeling in it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 The XK-3's attack is adjustable as well as the key click. The tubes were probably made in China (Shuguang?) and tend to roll off some of the highs and lows particularly when being overdriven. To me they produce what sounds like a guitar type overdrive. There are three choices of preamp, do you know which one it was set on? The single channel is very sharp with much of the low end taken out, kind of like a guitar distortion pedal. They can easily be replaced. Old GE's, Sylvania's or RCA's etc. really make a difference. I have heard that old Mullards sound very good as well. The old tubes don't roll the highs and lows off. Also, what amp was the XK-3 connected to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Loving Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Hi Fisheye - you can go into the menu of the xk3 and set the key switches to delay sound to your taste. Just about everything is adjustable, including the type of B3 - older/noisy, cleaner, etc. Don't be thrown off, the xk3 is the closest thing you'll get tp a B3 in one keyboard; and you can expand to upper and lower if you want. "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisheye Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Originally posted by daviel: Hi Fisheye - you can go into the menu of the xk3 and set the key switches to delay sound to your taste. Just about everything is adjustable, including the type of B3 - older/noisy, cleaner, etc. Don't be thrown off, the xk3 is the closest thing you'll get tp a B3 in one keyboard; and you can expand to upper and lower if you want. Ah, then I should go again. The shops personnel is rather stupid, so I can't ask them to help. But, I've just downloaded the xk-3 manual so I'll be armed with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konaboy Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Originally posted by dabowsa: Be sure to check out his jukebox page - he uses the Electro to its fullest! I have just listened to the first track, "jukebox" and there is no way that the organ is an Electro. Sounds like the real thing or another clone. The keyclick is the giveaway. Maybe the choice of amplification/speaker is what's making the difference...? And that Rhodes sound on "I Wish", doesn't sound anything like the Electro sounds either Anyway gear aside, that is some truly incredible playing hang out with me at woody piano shack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konaboy Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Originally posted by eric: I am a big Electro enthusiast, but only for the keyboard version. Trying to "play" the Electro rack would be a huge pain, IMHO, unless you "set it and forget it" in a rack. If drawbar tweaking is important to you, you would need to position that behemoth 4-space monster right by your controller and then adapt to the drawbuttons... Regards, Eric I have an Electro rack placed on top of my P80 piano. It is a joy to manipulate the controls, in fact it is easier than on the electro keyboard. Why? Because the front panel is quite steeply angled towards me (the keyboard version has a flat front panel). Plus it's rasied up a few inches making it easier to see. Furthermore I've got it all the way over to the left and that feels better than having the controls in the middle of the keyboard. So don't rule out the electro rack because of ergonomics! hang out with me at woody piano shack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 There are songs played by Tony Monaco on the XK-System available here: http://www.b3monaco.com/saw.htm You may request a copy of the CD here: http://www.hammondorganco.com/Freestuff_set.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 I'm really torn between getting a VK8, or getting a VK8m and connecting it to my MotifES6. I've been GASsing for a clone with waterfall keys for a few months, but I'm not sure it is worth the price difference. Robert This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Originally posted by konaboy: I have an Electro rack placed on top of my P80 piano. It is a joy to manipulate the controls, in fact it is easier than on the electro keyboard. Why? Because the front panel is quite steeply angled towards me (the keyboard version has a flat front panel). Plus it's rasied up a few inches making it easier to see. Furthermore I've got it all the way over to the left and that feels better than having the controls in the middle of the keyboard. I see your point and that sounds like a good way to leverage the Electro Rack. I wasn't really questioning the ergonomics as much as I was the challenge of where to put the thing in a live rig! If you have a nice big keyboard with some empty real estate (like your Yamaha piano example), then the Electro Rack is a good solution. But if you have keyboards that are cluttered (in a good way) with knobs, sliders, wheels, etc. then the only place you can put the Rack would be on a separate little stand - if you plan to control it in real time on the gig. For example, my S90 has the wheels above the keyboard and I could not fit an E Rack over there...same problem with my DSI PEK - if I wanted to use it as a controller for the E Rack, there's simply no room to perch it anywhere. Regards, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phred Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Originally posted by konaboy: Originally posted by dabowsa: Be sure to check out his jukebox page - he uses the Electro to its fullest! I have just listened to the first track, "jukebox" and there is no way that the organ is an Electro. Sounds like the real thing or another clone. The keyclick is the giveaway. Maybe the choice of amplification/speaker is what's making the difference...? And that Rhodes sound on "I Wish", doesn't sound anything like the Electro sounds either Anyway gear aside, that is some truly incredible playing Sounds like a real B3 to me - great sound... I imagine he records with a real one and gigs with an electro... I'm just saying', everyone that confuses correlation with causation eventually ends up dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phred Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 FWIW I play whiter shade with 3rd perc on and a registration like: 688600000. I forget if I use chorus, but I probably do. I'm just saying', everyone that confuses correlation with causation eventually ends up dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Ok, Phred asked me to let you in on what I was playing on some of those recordings. All of the organ tracks are a real B-3, albeit the crappiest B-3 I've ever had the horror to play. No voulume pedal, lots of buzzy junk coming out when you press a key. About the only thing I liked about it was the percussion - nice thunk to it. The Leslie was stuck on fast, and noisy as all get out. The Rhodes on I Wish was a real Rhodes, and again, one of the worst I've ever played. For examples of the Electro Rhodes in action check out this and this . The guy who I was working for booked the studio and told me they had all the keys I'd need, so I didn't bring mine - big mistake. I don't actually have any recordings of the Electro organ, and the only thing negative I can say about it is that the percussion doesn't have enough thunk, especially in the lower registers, but maybe that's something they can work out. I didn't own an Electro at the time of those recordings, but if I had, I would definitely have preferred to use it over the organ and Rhodes that were provided. I have both the Electro Rack and a 73, and I have a Stage on order. To my ears, and as a longtime Hammond A-101 w/122, Rhodes Mk I 88, Wurly 200a, Clavinet D-6, and Yamaha CP-70b owner, and lifelong piano player, there's nothing on the hardware market that can even come close to the Electro (and yes, I mean the acoustic pianos too). The ONLY thing missing on the non-Hammond side of the Electro is Clavinet damper modeling, everything else was nailed wonderfully. At this point, given the choice between the Electro and a real B-3 series organ on either a gig or a recording, it would really come down to the quality of the Hammond/Leslie combo. 50 years later there are still a ton of great Hammonds out there, but you're not going to find them as frequently on stage or in your average studio - if there is one chances are it will be OK at best. Same with Rhodes - I prefer a MkI with tight action and a fatter tone, not much of a dyno type fan outside of some particular applications. I guess what I'm saying is that in general at this point in time I would probably prefer to record with the Electro than the real deal instruments unless they're my own instruments, which are as close to my ideal concept of the sound of those particular instruments as any others I have played - I've been very lucky with the keyboards I've run across when it was time to buy. As far as the Electro Rack goes, the picture above is not entirely typical of my setup. I was using backline on that gig with my own Rack. The only space I had for my Rack was off to the left. My own controller for my Rack is a Roland XV-88 and I set the Rack near dead center so that either hand has equal access to the controls. It's very handy that way for playing the piano/EP sounds. For organ, the 73 is more functional for me as I can have both hands holding down keys and still manipulate the drawbuttons easily. When I use both the Rack and the 73, I put my XV-88 on the lower tier (Ultimate Apex) and the 73 as close to the top of the XV as possible so that I can approximate organ manuals as much as possible, not necessarily for organ work, but because i really prefer the setup of organ manuals for 2 keyboard playing of any type. I then set the Rack on top of the 73 on the left hand side which is just long enough to accommodate the Rack. It's a great setup, but I honestly can't wait for the Stage to get here and retire the Rack to studio stuff and gigs where backline is provided. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nu2Keys Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 WOW! Great info, sounds AND playing. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Kevank: Yep great playing. So you bought the Nord Stage sight unseen or did you get a chance to try one first? Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 I thought I'd post this. It's a quick mp3 I did with my S90. The patch and leslie sim emulation are my own creation--you won't get this out of a stock S90/Motif. I've owned nearly every hardware clone (or at least had them on extended trials). I guess I'm expecting more out of these dedicated units. I have been after a certain sound and as far as I'm concerned my lowly S90 gets pretty close to that sound. The S90 clearly has limitations in it's B3 emulation, but on the other hand it can do a hell of a lot more than the B3 clones. S90 B3 Emulation Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Bill, that is some killer Hammond playing and I think you have coaxed maximum B3 horsepower out of the S90. Excellent work! If I heard this without knowing it wasn't a real Hammond, I could be fooled. I'm especially impressed with the Leslie and swell simulations. Nice take on the Sinatra tune! Thank you for posting it!!! Regards, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by MikeT156: Kevank: Yep great playing. So you bought the Nord Stage sight unseen or did you get a chance to try one first? Mike T. Thanks man. Yeah, I just went ahead and ordered it simply based on my experience with the Electro for the last 2 1/2 years. I haven't used a sound from another hardware synth in about 2 years. About my only concern regarding the Stage is the availability of mono piano/EP sounds. I always run mono on gigs and there's nothing good about mono summed stereo sampled patches, particularly acoustic piano patches. I am excited about the synth in the Stage. The only time I use any non-Electro sounds at this point is if I need to play actual synth stuff, which I do with my 12" PowerBook running u-he\'s Zebra in either Logic Pro or Rax . (I provide the links for Zebra and Rax because those two are among the best plugs/hosts from independent developers out there, IMO). A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daBowsa Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by burningbusch: I thought I'd post this. It's a quick mp3 I did with my S90. The patch and leslie sim emulation are my own creation--you won't get this out of a stock S90/Motif.Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konaboy Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Thanks kevank for clarifying which boards u recorded with! I'm very relieved that you confirmed I was correct - I had my neck on the block there Even though that Hammond and Rhodes may have been rough, they still sounded far more pleasing than the Electro. In fact the roughness is exactly what the electro is lacking - a bit more clunk, grind & dirt The electro is rather too sweet and polite - depends on what sound you prefer i guess ! hang out with me at woody piano shack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicaL Posted August 6, 2005 Author Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by konaboy: Even though that Hammond and Rhodes may have been rough, they still sounded far more pleasing than the Electro. I agree. There's something lacking in the clone demos that I can't seem to put my finger on. So far, my favorite organ patch has been on my S80, and there's another very similar patch on my motif ES7 called Slow Jam that I just love... Need to get myself down to the music store to try out some of them clones... aL Gear: Yamaha MODX8, Mojo 61, NS2 73, C. Bechstein baby grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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