COGIC Musicians

[revriley]

Anyone here play organ or keys in the COGIC or similar holiness churches?

[Immo]

I've been playing in one or two small Brooklyn Tabernacle affiliate churches. I wonder why they keep letting me come back since they play everything spontaneously and without music, and I'm probably nine months into learning how to play by ear (I'm faily competent when I have sheet music in front of me).

[revriley]

that's just my point. No music. everything by ear. At what point do you feel confident enough to play. I can play by ear but I do not feel sure about backing up a soloist who I haven't practiced with.

[Immo]

It depends from song to song. Some songs you immediately recognise have a fairly standard gospel structure and you can play never having heard before. If you know the piece that helps. Others that are more complicated or you just haven't heard, well, it's some tough going.

 

Fortunately most of the time in at least one of the churches I'm backing up someone else playing keys. However when I go solo, I have a little say on which pieces we play and the key, which definitely helps.

 

To be honest I don't always feel confident, but usually it's at least ok and sometimes very good. As long as they don't pick a song I don't know and start singing in F# Major before I play the root of the key I want to play it in, or some sort of intro.

[b3kys]

I grew up in the Apostolic Pentecostal Church but i've played for many COGIC churches in southern california.

[revriley]

Originally posted by b3kys:

I grew up in the Apostolic Pentecostal Church but i've played for many COGIC churches in southern california.

Do you play by ear? if so, how did you learn?

[Immo]

Believe it or not I think the Mark Levine Jazz Piano Book may have helped me to play by ear. It taught a progression or so, and what I learned there with the suggested tunes from the real book I think helped me recognize the color of certain chords. There are still some that confuse me, but nowadays I can usually pick out a ii 7 and that usually means a V7 and I are coming after.

 

However my use of Mark Levine's book happens to coincide with when I was thrown in the fire you might say, so I've been playing by ear in church about as long as I've been using his book. I think the two endeavors have helped each other though.

 

I'll say the first two times I played backing up the organ on the keyboard, I had the volume turned down so low (so the congregation couldn't hear me) that I couldn't hear myself, which made things more difficult. I think it was probably the third or fourth service I was beginning to hear what was going on. I'm still learning though.

[revriley]

sounds like my situation. I just don't have a lot of courage in just jumping in there. Where can I find the book that you mentioned? So it's all in the chord progressions huh?

[Immo]

Mark Levine's "Jazz Piano Book." I also got myself a Real Book (I got the Chuck Sher version called The New Real Book) as the "Jazz Piano Book" tells you go practice what you just learned on these songs in the Real Book.

 

I don't think it THE thing that made it happen, but I'm pretty sure it helped. It's not all in the chord progressions, but it can often help. Like I said above, if you can recognize a ii7 chord, you probably know a V7 and a I are coming after and that will save you a few measures of worrying. Many progressionis go up in fourths. So unless you're playing a I IV or V chord, (i.e. you're playing a ii, iii, or vi chord), you're probably going to cycle through the circle going in fourths until you get back to the root. You can also identify these progressions because they often occur at the end of a musical phrase (as they resolve to the root). Also listen carefully because some gospel music likes to change out the minor seventh chords that jazz uses for dominant seventh chords. Don't worry if you miss it though because the minor seventh chords will sound right to most people except for gospel connosours, it will just have a bit of a different color.

 

The first thing I was told by someone I know who plays by ear very well, is listen for the bass line. If you can follow the bass line, you have a pretty good idea what chord will go with it. Also, if for certain parts you can ONLY get the bass line when you're beggining, it can pass because at least you're keeping them in key and setting a tempo.

 

Mark Levine's book will teach you about good chord voicing, and I think it helped me recognize what chord to play with a particular bass note.

 

So how did you find yourself in this "perdicament" or opportunity to bless others (depending on how you look at it)? Was there a keyboard player before you? Is there an organist? Some churches work keyboard players up to the main service by giving them roles below the main meeting, like a smaller church gathering ("potluck," breakfast, etc.) or accompanying the kids.

[revriley]

Thanks for the help. Many churches here in need of a musician. At the church that I attend now the Minister of Music is often late for services so there are many oppertunities to jump in and start up a service. I really need to get fine tuned on shouts and worship music. I was originally a Baptist. arried into the COGIC and has since wanted to become a musician in the Church. I have taught myself to sound acceptable but I loose my confidence when I get into a large congregation. I don't think that these musicians are better than I am they have just put it all together over the yeas to get that good. They are not willing to share thier knoledge. If you know of any more good resources let me know.

[Immo]

If your church does some gospal type music along with whatever hymns or contemporary music, there were a couple decent threads on here with some links to some helpful looking sites. Those would probably be more helpful once you feel comfortable with the basics, as it's more about the details (playing the gospel style, what you might play while the pastor is speaking that sounds gospelly (if he wants that sort of thing).

 

If there's more than one keyboard, try jumping behing the lead guy, or if there's room and you don't think people will complain, bring your own board and play a strings in the background. Also you can get started practicing outside of church if you just get a list of songs you might play and start figuring them out on your own time, however long it takes and in a few keys. Nine months ago I had trouble doing that.

 

By the way I notice you're from Arkansas. What parts? I spent a summer in Conway once. Long story...

[b3kys]

You should check out www.shoemethat.com

They have really great instructional material. (eg. shouts, hyms, contemporary gospel, runs, licks, progressions, etc.)

 

Mark Levine's piano book is a great resource. It helped me out alot.

 

You might want to check out www.gospelkeyboard.com

 

I was born into the church and have been playing all of my life. Most of my family members are bishops, pastors, elders, etc. So naturally i was very active in church.The church atmosphere is one of the best places to learn because they "throw songs at you'. YOu have to be able to play any song at any time and in any key. That can be a bit intimidating at first but it makes you grow. It forces you to never stay in a comfort zone. If you look at many of the producers and players in today's music many of them came out ot the church.

 

Warren Cambel producer for Yolanda Adams, B2K, Mary Mary, Omarion, Whitney Houston, Lauren Hill. Was brought up in the COGIC

Nissan Stewart who's father is a Pastor in the PAW plays whith Destiny's child, Beyonce, Missy Elliot, Timbiland, Tweet, etc.

Michael Bereal, Jason White, The Neuble family (Michael, Jimmy, and Dion), Cassandra Oneal, Don Williams, PJ Morgan, Joe Flip Wilson, Valdez Brantley, LLanar Brantley, Juan Najera, IZ, Bobby Ross Avila, Andrew Gouche, Jeff Motley who've played with Mary J Blidge, Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, Boyz II Men, Black Street, Usher, Brian McKnight, LeeAnn Rhimes, etc.

 

The list goes on and on.

 

So i would say to practice, get experience (playing in church is excellent), and find someone to learn from.

[revriley]

Conway eh? I'm in Little Rock. I appreciate all the help. I pretty much have the basics down. I think I can be helped by just playing along with some somgs untill I get a little more experience. I feel like I'm just inches away from Getting It. I need to start playing around at some of these smaller churches who don't have a musician at all.

[midinut]

Originally posted by revriley:

I don't think that these musicians are better than I am they have just put it all together over the yeas to get that good. They are not willing to share thier knoledge.

That doesn't sound very "Christian-Like" to me. How can musicians have a gift of talent from God and not want to share that with others who thirst for the same knowledge. After all isn't it all about glorifying Him? Next time they express their lack of desire to share ... maybe the parable of the Good Samaritan might be in order. Just my thoughts! I'm done now.

[Tusker]

In your spare time, if you play to the spirit, and entertain him with your worship, he will give you all the technique you need. He did for David. He helped David write perhaps the most important songbook in history.

 

Best

 

Jerry

[revriley]

most of the church musicians in my area do not hold down 9-5 jobs. They are not going to show you anything. They will try to string you along on some lessons. I've taken lessons from two of the best gospel musicians in this are and did not learn much at all. I'm looking for somthing that will finally get me playing like I need to. Any media(books,video,DVD)or somthing that you experiencied playes know of that has really helped you understand play by ear and improve. I appreciate all of your help. If anyone else has anything to add please continue this thread or send me a pm. Thanks

[JeffLearman]

Originally posted by midinut:

Originally posted by revriley:

I don't think that these musicians are better than I am they have just put it all together over the yeas to get that good. They are not willing to share thier knoledge.

That doesn't sound very "Christian-Like" to me. How can musicians have a gift of talent from God and not want to share that with others who thirst for the same knowledge. After all isn't it all about glorifying Him? Next time they express their lack of desire to share ... maybe the parable of the Good Samaritan might be in order. Just my thoughts! I'm done now.

It certainly doesn't -- frankly, it doesn't even sound very "musician-like". Usually, folks have to use duck tape to keep us from "sharing".

 

I suspect that most musicians who don't help you to improve don't do so because they don't know how they play themselves. They're players, not thinkers about playing. Coaching and performing are very different skills, and there are some good players who don't have a clue what they're really doing and couldn't explain it if they tried.

[JeffLearman]

Would the Levine book also be good for someone who plays by ear and reads music slowly at best?

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Tusker:

In your spare time, if you play to the spirit, and entertain him with your worship, he will give you all the technique you need. He did for David. He helped David write perhaps the most important songbook in history.

 

Best

 

Jerry

If the spirit doesn't give you all the technique you need, you might want to try a piano teacher who performs for a living and who is affiliated with a music college. The odds of landing a bad teacher still exist but now the odds are more in your favor. There was a thread here which I started entitled Correct Piano Technique which gave concrete suggestions.

 

Actually, one of the most important songbooks in history was written by George. George Gershwin. I'm sure if George were alive he'd give down to earth, concrete advice.

[Immo]

Originally posted by learjeff:

Would the Levine book also be good for someone who plays by ear and reads music slowly at best?

Could be. There is minimal "sheet music." It's more lead sheet oriented, and will show a bar or so of "sheet music" to show a particular chord voicing. It's somewhat assumed that you then memorize the voicing in every key and use it when you see a chord name on the lead sheet.

 

There is the occasional song that it very speicifically voiced, with the notes written out, but the chords are usually also written as well.

 

So yeah I recommend it.

[midinut]

Originally posted by learjeff:

Originally posted by midinut:

Originally posted by revriley:

I don't think that these musicians are better than I am they have just put it all together over the yeas to get that good. They are not willing to share thier knoledge.

That doesn't sound very "Christian-Like" to me. How can musicians have a gift of talent from God and not want to share that with others who thirst for the same knowledge. After all isn't it all about glorifying Him? Next time they express their lack of desire to share ... maybe the parable of the Good Samaritan might be in order. Just my thoughts! I'm done now.

It certainly doesn't -- frankly, it doesn't even sound very "musician-like". Usually, folks have to use duck tape to keep us from "sharing".

 

I suspect that most musicians who don't help you to improve don't do so because they don't know how they play themselves. They're players, not thinkers about playing. Coaching and performing are very different skills, and there are some good players who don't have a clue what they're really doing and couldn't explain it if they tried.

That says alot Lear. I suppose my feelings come from the fact that I am a teacher (computer not music) and I live every day to give my students a great learning experience. Back to topic though:

 

I've gotten alot out of Chuck Leavell's DVD and Donald Fagen's. But I learned by ear. I can learn from watching and picking up (or stealing) licks from other players. If I could read and had a much better understanding of theory and composition, then Andy's book has always come highly recommended. There are several gospel piano and gospel organ DVD's out as well (look for ads in Keyboard Magazine) but I haven't seen them personally. Good luck to you and keep us posted on your progress.