analogman1 Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Hey Chris, Congratulations! Enjoy your new 'board. Tom Nord Electro 5D, Modal Cobalt 8, Yamaha upright piano, numerous plug-ins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Chris, what changed your mind on the P250? You used rather negative adjectives to describe the sound on previous posts and now you go out and buy one. I believe you said the sound of the P250 was harsh. What changed in your thinking? No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 old Keyboard thread I personally dont like the p250. I think its piano sound is quite harsh. This is my preference. I just didnt find the p250 very musical. Regards, p120dUdE Yes, I will tell you why. IMO that the p250's sound is harsh. It is not that natural. With the p120, I get every single nuance of a grand piano, like sympathetic vibrations(string resonance), sustain resonance, soundboard resonance, and key off. I get every dynamic of a piano with the p120. It is warm and beatiful. p120dUdE I have tested both p250 and p120 through heaphones. When I tried out the p250, I didnt like it at all. I thought it was harsh. When I tried the p120, it was warm and beatiful. I fell in love with its sound, action, and features. This is all a matter of taste, people who say "If you buy this, you will be an idot, it is not the best, this is" then they are complete idiots. This is personal preference, and I dont like the p250 at all. It is crap to me. Regards, p120dUdE I will post my opinions, and that will be it. *I hate the Yamaha P250. I think its piano and action are crappy. To me it is a poor piece of gear. *I also hate Kurweil, they are very poor too. I dont like their pianos or action. This is all preference, so dont quote me. p120dUdE No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nih Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Now, now, Dave, Why don't you pick on someone your own size.. Maybe, just maybe, the kid realizes how to unleash the potential of the P-250 when its hooked up to a laptop.. -n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangsu Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Is Dave a big man? "........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrancedelicBlues Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 it's like deja vu all over again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niacin Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I will post my opinions, and that will be it. *I hate the Yamaha P250. I think its piano and action are crappy. To me it is a poor piece of gear. *I also hate Kurweil, they are very poor too. I dont like their pianos or action. This is all preference, so dont quote me. p120dUdE [/QB] And he went and bought not just a P250 but a Kurzweil PC88 too. That's hilarious. The dUdE should get into synths. Try a few and identify the one you hate the most, and start saving up for it. Gig keys: Hammond SKpro, Korg Vox Continental, Crumar Mojo 61, Crumar Mojo Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Originally posted by nih: Now, now, Dave, Why don't you pick on someone your own size.. Maybe, just maybe, the kid realizes how to unleash the potential of the P-250 when its hooked up to a laptop.. -n Yea, I know, easy target. I am still waiting to hear what brought on the change in his thinking. This same question was asked in another thread amd went unanswered. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Originally posted by gangsu: Is Dave a big man? No, one of my favorite pastimes is pointing out inconsistent thinking. This is a blatant case. I am curious to know what changed in his thinking. By the way, I would expect the same treatment from you if I started actually liking a Fatar action. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 A link to an article in Scientific American should clear this up once and for all. Scientific American Over and out. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Hey Dave, you have the right to throw some shots P120DuDe's way. AKA Blues+. The change of heart came in when he could afford a P250. Chris made mention of the fact that he was jealous of the fact that he really couldn't afford a P250 when he was throwing cheap shots at it. As they say "Money changes everything". I wish I had some so I could experience that first hand. Whats more, I wouldn't have to mortgage the ranch to get my hands on the DSI KB Evolver. Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trill Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Dave , I think I hear a A-Bb-F# Arpeggio repeating and the voice of Rod Sterling " You are now entering the.... I wonder if my alter ego is out playing country music in some dance hall somewhere or he maybe he would be a head bangin metalhead. Anyway Blues+, I think you made a good choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.T. Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 SPACE......The Final Frontier. These are the voyages of...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireking99 Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Like I say to my dog on about every walk we take... "Drop it!" Maybe Dave should adopt Animotion's one hit wonder as his theme song about p120dUdE/Blues+ entitled "Obsession". Pertinent lyrics: "You are an obsession. You're my obsession...My fantasy has turned to madness; All my goodness has turned to badness. My need to possess you has consumed my soul. My life is trembling I have no control". Ah, the 80's. Such thought provoking songs. Go that way...REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, turn! B.O.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangsu Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Originally posted by Dave Horne: Originally posted by gangsu: Is Dave a big man? No, one of my favorite pastimes is pointing out inconsistent thinking. This is a blatant case. I am curious to know what changed in his thinking. By the way, I would expect the same treatment from you if I started actually liking a Fatar action. I doubt i'd consider it a personal victory. Your disdain is very similar to my thing against graded action. My complaint is based on 3 or 4 specific instruments that make me crazy. But they're all about 3 years old. What's the saying, every man and machine has a license to mature? "........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudyS Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Originally posted by Dave Horne: A link to an article in Scientific American should clear this up once and for all. Scientific American Over and out. Rudy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 gangsu, what's your beef with a graded action? The 'hammers' at the lower end of the keyboard are heavier than the 'hammers' at the top and the change is graded ... a gradual change. In an acoustic piano you have the same effect and to be perfectly honest, I never gave it any thought. I assume, and a piano technician's professional input would be most welcome, to create a more evenly balanced sound, the upper end of a keyboard needs more effort (from the player, thus hammers with less mass) to create a balanced sound with the lower end of the piano (which need less effort from the player, thus hammers with more mass). That's just me thinking aloud why there might be a need for graded hammers. At any rate, the rate at which the mass of the hammers changes is never noticed by me in actual playing. If the mass change of the hammers were abrupt, it might be an annoyance and I would agree in that instance that something would need to be improved. So, what's the deal with you and graded hammers? No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangsu Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I love it when an obvious truth is pointed out. All these digital references to "balanced" vs "graded" action have nothing to do with sound, but simply the weight of the keys from one end of the board to the other. The lower the keys, the "bigger the hammer", the more force req'd to play them. It's just a stupid idea, and now with this insightful post of yours, it seems even twice as stupid. "........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 All these digital references to "balanced" vs "graded" action have nothing to do with sound, but simply the weight of the keys from one end of the board to the other. For those who want a digital piano to copy the physical characteristics of an acoustic piano, this would seem a logical approach, yes? The P250 has natural resonance (as does the Promega and probably the Roland as well) and I do _not_ detect its presence in actual playing. My everyday piano, my GranTouch does not have natural resonance and I never noticed its absence. I would put the graded hammer in the same category with natural resonance - wouldn't miss it and from the marketing point of view, a plus. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markyboard Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Parallel Markyboard is getting upset! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangsu Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Contrary to the reputation that preceeds me, I don't particularly like repeating myself. But for your sake (Dave Horne) I will say it one more time: There is no graded effect in the effort required to play the keys of a fine acoustic grand. Hi markyboard. It's ok. "........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Originally posted by gangsu: Contrary to the reputation that preceeds me, I don't particularly like repeating myself. But for your sake (Dave Horne) I will say it one more time: There is no graded effect in the effort required to play the keys of a fine acoustic grand. Hi markyboard. It's ok. I don't know about that. If the hammers have a greater mass at the lower end of the keyboard, I'm sure there are some of us who could consistantly tell the subtle difference between the amount of force needed to achieve the same hammer velocity. I believe the lower keys on an acoustic have more total mass as well - not just the hammers. It would be great for a piano technician to jump in here and set either or both us straight. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangsu Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Hammer velocity might be a different topic, I'm not sure. I'm talking about the initial force required to gently depress a key. Any key. To get it moving. To go from stationary, to on it's way down. The initial drop of the key before the hammer's even struck the string. Or, the effort req'd to depress a key soundlessly, that might be a "more balanced" demonstration. Are we talking about the same thing? "........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Originally posted by gangsu: Hammer velocity might be a different topic, I'm not sure. I'm talking about the initial force required to gently depress a key. Any key. To get it moving. To go from stationary, to on it's way down. The initial drop of the key before the hammer's even struck the string. Or, the effort req'd to depress a key soundlessly, that might be a "more balanced" demonstration. Are we talking about the same thing? Dynamics - loud, soft and everything in between is hammer velocity. All you have to do is measure the speed of the hammers and you can translate that into loudness. It's the speed of the hammer as it strikes the string that determines whether the sound is loud or soft. You can talk about force, but in the GranTouch piano, what is measured is the speed of the hammer. 'Balanced' or 'graded action or graded hammers' is the manufacturer's was to imitate the same quality that acoustic pianos have - hammers of different mass. For a digital piano this is more of a marketing ploy than a feature of any real value in my opinion. The action of all electric pianos is so light that making the upper keys even lighter than the lower makes no sense to me, but then I'm not in marketing, I just play. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangsu Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 It's a marketing ploy that actually diminishes the playability of the instrument -- I possibly wouldn't have noticed if it weren't for the fact that I'm often called upon to play very softly. The manufacturer has 2nd guessed the feel of a real grand, and got it wrong. Sorry, but I can't seem to reconcile it. "........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I remember one thing I was taught on how to play consistently soft - just let your hand drop from its own weight and you will have more control on the sound. (The fly-away-wrist idea in reverse.) I'm just guessing, but I would bet that a 'balanced' action from a marketing point of view refers to the 'hammer' mass idea where the action is 'heavier' at the lower end as compared to the higher end. In digital pianos (and someone will correct me if I'm wrong), the 'loudness' is a matter of velocity. The keyboard does not measure your 'downward force' per se, just the result of that force - the velocity of the 'hammer'. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangsu Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I'm just guessing, but I would bet that a 'balanced' action from a marketing point of view refers to the 'hammer' mass idea where the action is 'heavier' at the lower end as compared to the higher end. LOL. You're 0 for 2 on the balanced vs. graded test. "........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangsu Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Have you ever taken note as to whether the action on your p250 feels even "lighter" on the high end than it does on the low? That would be weighted, graded action. Tell me quick, you're pulling my leg.... "........! Try to make It..REAL! compared to what? ! ! ! " - BOPBEEPER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niacin Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I don't know about the P250 but when GEM released their pro2, which I think was the first piano with string resonance modelled, a demo model came round to my local store and we found that the effect was only noticeable on slow held chords, e.g. Satie's Gymnopedies (or the last chord of a piece). The Kawai MP9500 has sring resonance in the effects section and I have it turned it off because it doesn't sound natural to me. Probably just not such a good model. I'm sure if you play alot of Satie or George Winston type material string resonance is good if it's been well implemented. If you're playing Bach it's irrelevant. The MP9500 has a graded action. I haven't had the need to open it up but I suspect the hammers at the lower end are bigger/heavier. I think gangsu has a point about graded spring mechanisms doing it wrong. Rather like the free weights v.s. pullies argument around gym equipment. That is the action required to move a spring (regardless of the pivot point) is not a good imitation of a hammer action. I think the MP9500, which has real hammers, proves this. But as Chris pointed out in his early rants the release is noticeably slower than an acoustic and some people may be put off by it. Gig keys: Hammond SKpro, Korg Vox Continental, Crumar Mojo 61, Crumar Mojo Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisheye Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 If I may say something (oh well, I do it anyway); I think the problem with the graded effect and other modelled things is that it is sometimes just a bit exaggerated, maybe to prove to the more laymen customers that it is there. My Kawai MP9500 has modelled repedalling, meaning that when you quickly repress the sustain pedal after releasing it, the fading notes will get 'resustained'. In itself a nice effect of acoustic piano's. However, the effect is just a bit exaggerated, resulting in notes that still sound while I don't want them to, because I thought I released them with the sustain pedal. It's not unworkable, but I have to adjust my pedalling technique slightly so that I don't press the sustain pedal too soon after releasing it. BTW, I bought a Hammond organ with leslie today, so I'm really happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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