ITGITC Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Originally posted by StillFightingIt: Hey Sven, ...You're a top guy Hey StillFightingIt, I'm a top guy too. In my post, my intention was to quickly lay out my points in order to snap you back to reality. Sven simply went into further explanation. And an excellent explanation it is. Carbon fiber and magnesium are being used in more and more products to make them lighter while keeping them strong. If there was a market for a portable piano with strings and hammers, I am certain that these materials would be considered. In the meantime, you'll just have to compromise like the rest of us and use a controller. That is unless you've got the wherewithall to purchase an acoustic piano and have it carted and maintained like the larlger touring acts. So please understand, my intention was not to offend you... But c'mon back down to earth. Tom PS Sven... you're a top guy. "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resigned Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Carbon fiber is slowly making it's way into consumer products - my Acer Ferrari 4000 laptop has a carbon fiber case that makes it both strong and light and it looks great too. But we have yet to see a carbon fiber controller much less a CP70/80 knockoff. I'd be the first to buy a carbon fiber controller with David Horne's beloved Yamaha GranTouch action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Originally posted by fisheye: Originally posted by Sven Golly: Originally posted by Dave Horne: Who's going to go first ....? Sometimes it's just not worth it, Dave... as tempting as it is. Much like the idea of mic'ing an acoustic piano with a single SM57. Cheers, SG Mic'ing an acoustic piano with a single sm57 still gives a better playing experience than a digital. Not if you need to run any volume it doesn't. If you put the mic in the middle of the soundboard it will feed back and if you put it down in the bottom right corner (the best compromise in my experience) it gets very trebly. Indeed I think (but have not attempted to prove) this was a significant controlling factor in the development of the Chicago Blues Piano style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Has it ever been determined why the CP70/80 sounded so bad? The pickups? The hammers/strings? No soundboard? Too small of a scale? All of the above? Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Originally posted by burningbusch: Has it ever been determined why the CP70/80 sounded so bad? The pickups? The hammers/strings? No soundboard? Too small of a scale? All of the above? Busch. I'll choose "All of the above?" for $2,000, Busch. No soundboard, fewer strings per note, shorter strings in the bass region... so many things contribute to the sound of an acoustic grand piano that aren't there in the design of the CP80. Like I keep saying, nobody in 2005 is going to design and build a piano like the CP80 when we've got digital emulations that sound so good and cost so little. The CP80 was built because this stuff wasn't around back then. If we need more tactile feedback in the controllers, then so be it. But going back to strings and hammers and soundboards is not going to happen. Ummmmmmmmmmm... I don't mean to sound rude. I'm just trying to make a point. I'm a Top Guy, y'know. Tom "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humannoyed Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Most of the complexity/cost of a grand piano is in the action section. If someone was going to go to the trouble to build a true grand piano action into a digital piano (Grantouch) then it seems a no brainer to be able add a harp/string section to turn it into a real piano when desired. A controller with true grand piano action is the ideal practice keyboard for a pianist who doesn't have access to a grand to practice for space/noise reasons. If you could buy just the controller section for midi and add the string section later when affordable (or had the space) then you could at least be practicing on real grand action. When ready to add strings there could be choices harps of different lengths and perhaps soundboard qualities depending upon budget. You possibly could have choices of a few different variations (brands) of grand actions/hammers and then choose the harp section to go with it. You could practice the real piano when possible and disable the hammers hitting the strings when disturbing others if noise becomes an issue Okay why do we dream up this crazy stuff that some will say will never happen? It is simply trying to solve a problem of holding on to an instrument that no longer fits into our modern mobile, space and noise challenged environments. I believe there are solutions, and considering how many of these have already been implemented in on way or another: two piece grand (CP80) real grand action in a controller (Grantouch) silent real/hybrid piano (Quiet keys), others do too. Would I gig with a 2 piece real grand? Yes If I have a regular piano gig where I didn't have to move it weekly, or... if I did but had a road crew Day "It is a danger to create something and risk rejection. It is a greater danger to create nothing and allow mediocrity to rule." "You owe it to us all to get on with what you're good at." W.H. Auden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamer Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 There's only one Top Guy... http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6305127689.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg Korg PA3X Pro 76 and Kronos 61, Roland G-70, Integra 7 and BK7-m, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, 1965 Gibson SG Standard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Originally posted by Dreamer: There's only one Top Guy... http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6305127689.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg Ummmmmm, that's Top GUN, Dr. Dreamer. Nice try though. Tom PS Many, many thanks for the picture I am now using as background for my desktop. I use it at work and at home. No kidding. "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamer Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?: Many, many thanks for the picture I am now using as background for my desktop. Korg PA3X Pro 76 and Kronos 61, Roland G-70, Integra 7 and BK7-m, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, 1965 Gibson SG Standard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillFightingIt Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Gas you're a top guy too! You didn't offend me in anyway. And yeah maybe I was being unrealistic, but basically I'm a dreamer, but I don't think that's a bad thing. If people weren't dreamers and everyone settled for what we had where would we be now??? I do think the carbon fibre controller with real grnad action is on to something. I certainly would be into that. And another thing, why don't they make ipod size harddrives for romplers and install ivory sized samples? (ie. Have like a 20gb harddrive instead of compromising sound, or don't the drive's spin fast enough?) instead of compromising? My Band: www.myspace.com/fergusband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 StillFightingIt, Thanks man. And I certainly don't blame you for dreaming. Nope. Not at all. Stick around. Between my bad humor and Sven Golly's secret affair with sheep, there's always something going on around here. Tom "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Originally posted by StillFightingIt: If people weren't dreamers and everyone settled for what we had where would we be now???Ummm.... drum solo? I do think the carbon fibre controller with real grnad action is on to something. I certainly would be into that.Provided the frame was stiff enough to ensure no twisting/torquing, that would be ideal. Now, do we make it a MIDI controller, or a digital piano? And another thing, why don't they make ipod size harddrives for romplers and install ivory sized samples? (ie. Have like a 20gb harddrive instead of compromising sound, or don't the drive's spin fast enough?) instead of compromising? Sounds in ROM means nothing to break down. HD means a part that has a finite lifespan, is subject to shock, etc., etc. That isn't to say such a configuration doesn't exist: Alesis Fusion Korg OASYS Cheers, SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?: Stick around. Between my bad humor and Sven Golly's secret affair with sheep, there's always something going on around here. Guess it's a formerly secret affair... I'm just a shepherd... that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Cheers, SG (eddited to currect a spellink meestake... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhunter Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Hmmmmm.....I Googled "Google is your friend..." "Shephard" and it came back with "don't you mean Shepherd"? Shephard means something totally different!! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillFightingIt Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Provided the frame was stiff enough to ensure no twisting/torquing, that would be ideal. Now, do we make it a MIDI controller, or a digital piano? Well, I'm pretty certain carbon fibre is strong enough. My brother is a cyclist, in the last 5 years or so all the bikes are now being made out of carbon fibre now as opposed to alluminium (which isn't strong) and steel (which is too heavy). A full carbon fibre bike can weigh 5kg for the whole bike, I don't think there'd be any question about the strength of the Piano frame. So you have a real grand mechanism in it that triggers midi. For hopefully not much more weight then 30kg (and probably about the size of the promega 3 depending on the digital piano aspect of it.) I don't know whether it'd be better as a controller or digital piano. This would still be an expensive item, so it'd probably be best to be self-contained and make it a digital piano and you can always use it as a controller if needed. I think it would certainly be possible to make this happen, I would be very interested to see one of the manufacturers give it a go. As for attatchable harps/soundboard etc. although I think it would be awesome. I think it's a step further again. Now what action (upright or grand) would be more appropriate in this Carbon fibre case? My Band: www.myspace.com/fergusband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Originally posted by Manhunter: Hmmmmm.....I Googled "Google is your friend..." "Shephard" and it came back with "don't you mean Shepherd"? Shephard means something totally different!! Dave Doh! Damn, I hate typos. Thanks for pointing it out, Dave. Cheers, SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Originally posted by StillFightingIt: Provided the frame was stiff enough to ensure no twisting/torquing, that would be ideal. Now, do we make it a MIDI controller, or a digital piano? Well, I'm pretty certain carbon fibre is strong enough. My brother is a cyclist, in the last 5 years or so all the bikes are now being made out of carbon fibre now as opposed to alluminium (which isn't strong) and steel (which is too heavy). A full carbon fibre bike can weigh 5kg for the whole bike, I don't think there'd be any question about the strength of the Piano frame. So you have a real grand mechanism in it that triggers midi. For hopefully not much more weight then 30kg (and probably about the size of the promega 3 depending on the digital piano aspect of it.) I don't know whether it'd be better as a controller or digital piano. This would still be an expensive item, so it'd probably be best to be self-contained and make it a digital piano and you can always use it as a controller if needed. I think it would certainly be possible to make this happen, I would be very interested to see one of the manufacturers give it a go. As for attatchable harps/soundboard etc. although I think it would be awesome. I think it's a step further again. Now what action (upright or grand) would be more appropriate in this Carbon fibre case? The tension on a 5' 7" Steinway is greater than 33,000 lbs. On a Steinway D it's over 45,000 lbs. I don't know whether carbon fiber is strong enough as I'm not an engineer. Certainly it could be used in digital keyboard to replace steel and wood, but it would undoubtedly be more expensive. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue and white Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 What about a midi "string box?" They could design it like that of a baby grand or small upright piano so to save weight, have the midi actuators found in all the modern player pianos, and fit it with (I know this has already been said) guitar strings. It's like a combination of most things mentioned here so far. They've already done it with hammond tonewheels (there was a thread about this a while back.) It could even be a part of a line of products that had a midi controller that it could mount on to and act as a piano, like a reversed grantouch. Heck, my old spinet piano isn't too heavy so maybe it wouldnt even need to have a guitar string design. With some weight reduction designing on that it could be a complete piano soundboard. Just my $.02 + 5%(sales taxes...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue and white Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 What about a midi "string box?" They could design it like that of a baby grand or small upright piano so to save weight, have the midi actuators found in all the modern player pianos, and fit it with (I know this has already been said) guitar strings. It's like a combination of most things mentioned here so far. They've already done it with hammond tonewheels (there was a thread about this a while back.) It could even be a part of a line of products that had a midi controller that it could mount on to and act as a piano, like a reversed grantouch. Heck, my old spinet piano isn't too heavy so maybe it wouldnt even need to have a guitar string design. With some weight reduction designing on that it could be a complete piano soundboard. Just my $.02 + 5%(sales taxes...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondsofdoubt Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 So after I've read all the qualms here (that I agree with most assuredly...) I've recently stumbled upon something on eBay that I unfortunately missed that went up for auction: a Helpinstill Portable Grand piano. Some say the Helpinstills are horrendous, but this one in particular had Kimball internals. http://i18.ebayimg.com/04/i/06/9b/d5/36_1_b.JPG http://i23.ebayimg.com/04/i/06/bd/fa/d7_1.JPG http://i5.ebayimg.com/02/i/06/c3/eb/df_1.JPG Now, why are there not more pianos being made in that fashion? To me, I'd rather deal with moving a 200 lb. instrument that sounds decent (as decent as Kimball's can get) than a lightweight piano that sounds like shit. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Maberry Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Get these hideous monstrosities out of this sacred hall of music! But seriously. For anyone whos serious about playing a grand piano, nine times out of ten, wherever you are going will have at least a decent one there for you to play. Even the theater here, the only one on the island, has a Steinway model D. And as for those of us who use digital for most things, well, were doing just fine, wouldnt you say? "Stimulate the phagocytes." -George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondsofdoubt Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Well, I have played at quite a few concert halls that don't have acoustic pianos - of any kind! Let alone Steinway D's. And there are concert halls that do not allow rock bands to play them. (Perhaps they think I'm going to start jumping on the keys and setting fire to it...) Besides. I'm a poor high school student. I don't have $17,000 for a nice Yamaha C3. A $500 Helpinstill, however... I think I can swing that for writing songs in my basement. It would appear we're out of ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobsk8 Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 Not to mention, that if this light acoustic is to be realistic compared to the average acoustic piano in a club, it would have to be out of tune with an uneven action, and a couple of sticking notes and a damper pedal that doesn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Maberry Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 Yeah, i guess you guys win... "Stimulate the phagocytes." -George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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