Sorry about the possibly unpopular question, but...

[Boggs]

... Why is it such an unpopular thing on discussion boards for people to announce their own CDs or personal gear projects and such? I always thought these boards were here to support each others' musical endeavors. Please understand that I am not trying to solicit arguement here as I am interested in peoples' views on this subject. Do you think there should be a separate forum on the board for such things? It just seems kindof silly to me that a musician can't get up on a soapbox with his or her excitement about a completed project without being labelled a SPAM artist or something... I am not just saying it about this forum. It is a general thing, so please do not take personal offense. None is intended. Just food for thought and hopefully constructive conversation. Boggs

[Yuri T.]

Basically no one wants to see any kind of advertising. Once you open the door everyone with something to sell, show off, link to MP3s etc. will totally flood the board.

[miroslav]

There is a thread for promoting your music. There is nothing wrong with discussing your projects, interests...etc. But there is a SPAM line that is sometimes crossed by certain threads/posts. What/where is that line? Well, it kinda' shifts from day to day...but you will know for sure when you've crossed it. :p So...post away...but if you get a lot of SPAM notices from other members...then take a hint...and also a couple of steps back over that line! :D

[Tedster]

Hah, fuhrrrreind, bo-yyy, have ah got a soweeet deal for yew! Go ahead, kick th' tahrs, check out the CHROME...it's got your name written all over it!!!

[Jeff Leites]

I can understand not wanting "outsiders" to come in here trying to sell something, but it just seems unfriendly to me to come down on a long time member who comes out with something he's proud of. I have nothing to sell or gain from this, but there are some nice sound samples at http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/boggs.com/boggspage9.html ;)

[KHAN]

Jeff. I think that people who have contributed in the past generally get some slack when it comes to posting links to their music. But if Craig allowed it, Whenever people wanted criticism on a new mix, they would start a new topic for it, and the board would be littered with [b]"check out my new mix"[/b] threads. I don't think that most SSS members would be in favor of this. I think it would be great if they would start a mp3 mixing forum for this purpose. What do you think Craig???

[Boggs]

Thanks, Jeff, but I was honestly trying to avoid that because I do understand there's a sensitivity here and I had no intentions of bringing it up. I made that mistake before... :o ;) Just for the record (if you'll pardon the pun), I don't gain a dime from the CDs either. They are a charity work. That's all I will say on it... Still very interested in opinions on the subject topic though. How do you define that line, for example? Boggs

[Albert]

The problem is, once you open up a message board for ads/promotions/spam, then that's all you get. everyone is forced to slog through endless promotions to find something of value. The noise ratio goes way up and the value of the message board goes way down, as does it's usefulness for the purpose it was created. I've seen this happen before. In theory, what you are saying makes a sort of emotional sense, but in reality what you end up with is a lot of people spamming who don't contribute to the intellectual life of the board.

[Jeff Leites]

[quote]Originally posted by Boggs: [b]Thanks, Jeff, but I was honestly trying to avoid that because I do understand there's a sensitivity here and I had no intentions of bringing it up. I made that mistake before... :o ;) [/b][/quote]Sorry Boggs, I think I was feeling a little rebellious. ;) I've met some of the members at NAMM and AES dinners, and they are really a bunch of great guys, and I am looking forward to seeing them again in a couple weeks, but I guess overall the board doesn't have that same feeling of family as our beloved Carvin Lounge :( guess we'd have to find a support forum for that :D

[Calfee Jones]

[quote]Originally posted by Albert: [b]In theory, what you are saying makes a sort of emotional sense, but in reality what you end up with is a lot of people spamming who don't contribute to the intellectual life of the board.[/b][/quote]Right. The problem happens when new posters come here and think that by posting their stuff they will somehow get a free ride from the industry people here. The better approach is to contribute to a forum CD (several have been put out from these boards), post to the "Is my Music any good" topic, or get some good advice and make your mark outside of these boards. It's just alot nicer here when we treat one another as peers and not as customers... :wave:

[MattC]

[b]It's just alot nicer here when we treat one another as peers and not as customers... [/b] darn tootin'! Besides, you can always add your project name and URL in your quote space without fear of spamicidal castigation. If people want to listen, they will, but there's no need to suck up more precious bandwidth with seperate posts for every project.

[Boggs]

[quote]Originally posted by matt C: [b][b]It's just alot nicer here when we treat one another as peers and not as customers... [/b] darn tootin'! Besides, you can always add your project name and URL in your quote space without fear of spamicidal castigation. If people want to listen, they will, but there's no need to suck up more precious bandwidth with seperate posts for every project.[/b][/quote]That's not a bad suggestion, except I think we may be sort of visually immune to our signatures these days... ;) Does anyone really read them again to look for new information in others' signatures? I see what you are generally saying about bandwidth, but you do have the option to ignore such threads... I generally look FOR them because I am interested most in what others are doing musically. I recognize that's just me though... The ones that would be affected most by added bandwidth would be those with dial-up or low speed modems. How many folks are in that boat? Just curious... Boggs

[MattC]

That'd be me, in with the 56K crowd. That is, until my new recording computer comes into being. Bandwidth does affect how fast up low-speed users can upload pages, but the more important concern is how much data is transferred from musicplayers' servers.

[Sylver]

[quote]Originally posted by KHAN: [b]Jeff. I think that people who have contributed in the past generally get some slack when it comes to posting links to their music. But if Craig allowed it, Whenever people wanted criticism on a new mix, they would start a new topic for it, and the board would be littered with [b]"check out my new mix"[/b] threads. I don't think that most SSS members would be in favor of this. I think it would be great if they would start a mp3 mixing forum for this purpose. What do you think Craig???[/b][/quote]I've thought we should have a forum like that for a while. I thought the songwriter's forum might have turned out to be like that. Maybe we could convert it. BTW, I think any member who has over 1000 posts should be able to spam whenever they want. Anybody wanna buy a CD?

[Deathtoallwhoopposeme]

I'll tell you what, I have been wondering about the attitude and the apparent hyper-sensitivity of some people on this board of late...Especailly since the treatment ot Zachary Vex for trying to give us a heads up on something he's rolling out at NAMM....I thought it was WAY uncool and could have been handled in a much more subtle way...It was apparent, that some people are so out of touch that they didn't even know who he was and I didn't think he deserved to be HAMMERED for what he did by what seemd to me self rightious, self appointed policemen of the net...Some people around here are just that, and this place has become clicky, laden with little substance, attitude and void of a friendly vibe..Espeially to "outsiders"..Anyway, this is just how I have been vibing things around here lately....

[fantasticsound]

I think the use of the signature line for links to your own music is a wonderful idea. Many members have taken advantage of this area to promote their music, website, etc. The music thread provides a single place for members to find references and links to other members' music, as well. I AM a 56k modem user, and have no plans to upgrade. I don't get cable (I watch way too much TV with the broadcast channels) and don't see the value in a $50+/month bill for internet service. I should point out we have another year, prepaid, on a Ford Motor Company/People PC deal which charged us a whopping $5/month for a 3 year deal, plus they hacked another $15 off for prepaying. My connection ain't goin' nowhere. Let's not forget our venerable moderator, who claims to be connecting via a [i]28.8k[/i] modem. Bandwidth does matter. I've seen plenty of gray-area posts that could be misconstrued as spam, but aren't because the member has a long standing relationship with the community here. Seniority does have it's intangible benefits, even here. ;)

[Brakka]

[quote]Originally posted by Sylver Bleeds Green: [b]...I think any member who has over 1000 posts should be able to spam whenever they want. [/b][/quote]Holy sh*t- I think that's a [i]very bad[/i] idea. Do you know how easy it is to get 1000 posts? That certain recent troll had quite a few aliases with high post counts, and we've all seen people get to 1000 in seemingly no time at all. Don't give anyone a reason to up their post count (other than the 35 to get an avatar). I still think post count should be removed from our posts. : :)

[Duhduh]

[quote]Originally posted by Yuri T.: [b]Basically no one wants to see any kind of advertising. Once you open the door everyone with something to sell, show off, link to MP3s etc. will totally flood the board.[/b][/quote]Yeah.

[KHAN]

[quote]Originally posted by sventvkg: [b]I'll tell you what, I have been wondering about the attitude and the apparent hyper-sensitivity of some people on this board of late...Especailly since the treatment ot Zachary Vex for trying to give us a heads up on something he's rolling out at NAMM....I thought it was WAY uncool and could have been handled in a much more subtle way...It was apparent, that some people are so out of touch that they didn't even know who he was and I didn't think he deserved to be HAMMERED for what he did by what seemd to me self rightious, self appointed policemen of the net...Some people around here are just that, and this place has become clicky, laden with little substance, attitude and void of a friendly vibe..Espeially to "outsiders"..Anyway, this is just how I have been vibing things around here lately....[/b][/quote]I believe the overwhelming consensus here is that when someone provides a link to a product or service that they are [b]selling[/b] on their first post, it is they that are out of line. 99.9% of these people never intend on being productive members of the community and are treated as such. I don't feel that I am 'out of touch' because I am unfamiliar with the guy who makes a teeny weeny guitar amp. But maybe that is the new criteria.

[Alndln]

[quote]Originally posted by Boggs: [b] I always thought these boards were here to support each others' musical endeavors. [/b][/quote]I never saw it that way,at least on a personal level.This board is more of a discussion board to my way of seeing it which I like.The accent seems to be a blend on gear/tools and everyday life topics which is why I come here.I think a link as part of your signature is the perfect solution,and if someone is eventually interested in hearing your stuff,it's because they are genuinley interested rather than being asked,or put on the spot to listen to it.Whenever someone announces "Hey listen to me",I usually run the other way.

[Wewus432]

Posted by Bastard Khan: [quote] I believe the overwhelming consensus here is that when someone provides a link to a product or service that they are selling on their first post, it is they that are out of line. 99.9% of these people never intend on being productive members of the community and are treated as such. I don't feel that I am 'out of touch' because I am unfamiliar with the guy who makes a teeny weeny guitar amp. But maybe that is the new criteria. [/quote]That's exactly the way I feel Khan. I never heard of the guy. Zachary Vex shows up and didn't even introduce himself, he just says here's my product, check it out. THAT IS SPAM! Why should he get special consideration? Why? Are you guys star struck or something? I've know and worked for famous people before and they put their pants on just like you or me, and some of them are great people, and some of them are jerks. I really would like confirmation that, that was z. vex, because I have a hard time believing someone in his position would have an attitude like that. I knew for sure that, that was Chuck S. because I sent an e-mail to his personal address and he responded to it. Some of you guys are like, oh he's z. vex we have to kiss his butt. If he's a decent guy and he wants to hang out here and contribute, cool, if he just wants to post links to his gear, screw him, that's not what this place is for. What do you want to do, turn this into a manufacturer's forum where we all wait with bated breath to see who will post, and then kiss their butt so they'll come back. Rules are rules and they apply to everybody. The rule when I came here is NO SPAM, and I support that, but of course that rule is bent sometimes in consideration of seniority. Vex has no seniority. Did you notice he has his own personal troll, Chest Rockwell? What's up with that? Someone should e-mail vex and confirm that he posted here because I thought that whole episode was very troll-like on his part.

[Philip OKeefe]

I think people with a LOT of posts should be given some OCCASIONAL lieniency with regards to the "spam" policy. It's really a case by case basis thing. For example, Lee Flyer, one of our most beloved forum members, has a thread where she's trying to sell a couple of mic preamps. I say "you go girl". I see no problem with her doing something like that. She's been a valuable contributor here for years now, and if she wants to do this occasionally, where's the harm? Sure, she could have (and may have, I didn't bother to check) placed the ad on the MP classifieds section, but how many of you ever bother to look over there? I placed something into the "Is your music any good - find out here" thread once, and I think I got a grand total of about three responses. :rolleyes: But another time I started a thread called "Is my KID'S music any good - find out here", apologised for the break in ettiqute, and must have had about 70 responses. Do I do that all the time? No... and if I did, I would fully expect to get hammered with anti-spam posts, my 4K + post count notwithstanding. But occasional spam, or for sale, or I'm playing at such and such a place or check out this tune type threads from established members with a history of contributing in a positive manner to the forum? I personally see nothing wrong with that. Just my .02 centavos.

[Boggs]

Thanks, everyone, for your insights and the entirely civil discussion on what is a very sensitive topic with very diverse opinions... I will bear them all in mind. Boggs ;)

[KHAN]

[quote]Originally posted by Boggs: [b]Thanks, everyone, for your insights and the entirely civil discussion on what is a very sensitive topic with very diverse opinions... I will bear them all in mind. Boggs ;) [/b][/quote]Man. What a bastard. ;) :D

[BP3]

A simple understated link in your sig is unobtrusive enough to avoid offending the forum members.

[Anderton]

<> Exactly. The problem is that some of the "spam" is actually useful, or links to good music. But once you let it in, then the place starts looking like the classifieds section of the paper. I delete A LOT of spam stuff even before others see it. However, it's true that if people contribute a lot to the forum, I give 'em some slack. This is because they deserve some credit for the work they've put into making SSS a successful, credible board. What REALLY bothers people here is when someone has one or two posts and posts only to promote something. Those are the people who suffer the Wrath of Khan, and the Delete button. Public service spam has been left up. In several cases, people have asked me first if it was okay to post something. If I say yes, I also post a reply saying that the thread was approved so leave the dude alone. The one instance of spam I do is whenever there's a change of tunes on my personal web site. This is done as a convenience because quite a few people here like to follow my music, and by announcing it here, they don't have to keep checking back to see if there's anything new (although I guess this would give me more hits...hmmm). So that's it in a nutshell. Remember, we have a LOT of people who visit this board. If it became known as "the place to promote your stuff for free," the s/n ratio would become unbearable.

[nursers]

Can I also emphasise that anyone wanting to talk about their music and perhaps collaborating are always welcome at the Track Exchange forum - that's what it was set up for. I am still continually amazed at the lack of musical collaboration on a musician's website :)

[KHAN]

[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]Those are the people who suffer the Wrath of Khan, [/b][/quote]Yeah. I can be a real bastard sometimes. :D

[zachary vex]

hey craig. thanks for visiting my namm booth in '01. 8^) and thanks for your informative magazine columns over the years. formative stuff for pedalmakers everywhere. woohoo!

[Anderton]

I made it by your booth this year but maybe you were going to the bathroom or something... Since the spam thing got brought up again, here's something that might put things in perspective. We have 37,000 unique visitors last month, and I bet almost all of them are working on some kind of cool project. So doing the math, if they all decided to open one thread a month on what they're into, that would be over 1,000 new threads EVERY DAY. And you think the S/N ratio is bad now! As to where the line gets crossed, that's my call and one of my few chances to play benevolent dictator :) Generally, the more contributions someone has made to the board, the more slack they get (referred to in textbooks as "The Lee Flier effect"). Then again, I can also tell that some people stumble on to the board, think it's cool, and open up their "Hey check out my new tune!" folder in a flush of enthusiasm. I try to be nice to those folks and just inform them of how things work around here. The idea of putting a link under your signature is what I've done, although as noted, I do spam sometimes. Speaking of which: * Buy my Technoid Guitars sample CD! * Buy my Turbulent Filth Monsters sample CD! * Buy my Quick Start books from Music Sales (Sonar, Cakewalk Home Recording, Reason, Audio Mastering) * Subscribe to EQ! * Go to my web site! * Come to my seminars! * Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam! There, got it out of my system :)