slide guitar technique on a keyboard ?

[sudo]

Hi all,

 

i was wondering if there's any way of emulating a slide guitar 'technique/sound' on a keyboard ...

 

here's my attempt at describing how is this diferent from a glissando or pitch bend (assuming sampled instrument):

 

While playing a note, change the pitch+sample to another note while passing through (sounding) all intermediate semitones pitch+samples (think of guitar frets) in a very smooth/connected way (i.e. without the attack part of the sound).

 

I'm sure someone can re-phrase the above in a more accurate way - but can this pitch 'sliding' be done with a keyboard ?

 

Thanks.

[Tusker]

Funny you should mention that. Jordan Rudess put up a video clip of him improvising that sort of thing on a Continuum, a "keyboard-like" instrument. The pitch movement reminds of the slide guitar work of Steve Howe and the tonal control sound like the Fripp/Belew combination from King Crimson:

 

http://www.jordanrudess.com/wizlog/

 

He is controlling pitch with the sideways (X) dimension, volume with pressure and harmonic spectra with the vertical (Y) dimension.

 

On a regular keyboard, you can get close with portamento, the trouble is that portamento speed is not easily manipulatable in a musical manner. There are settings (constant time portamento) that will generally help, but there still a few cludgy moments.

 

A good long ribbon controller (available with some modular synths, the Alesis Andromeda and the Kurzweil K2600) will also help accomplish your objectives. Best,

 

Jerry

[Prague]

It's best done with a poly aftertouch keyboard. You can set the bend range to whatever (usually 1/2 step) and then assign Bend to poly aftertouch. When you hold down a chord, just press harder on the key that you want to bend.

 

Even on an older poly keyboard, 128 bit resolution for a 1/2 step range is fine.

 

It's THE reason I keep my Ensoniq VFX... for a controller, if nothing else.

[Faruk]

Well, I do it by asigning pitch change to the knob. For me it is much easier then doing it on the wheel. I think you get more realistic feel by doing slide with something that dont have dead spots (spring on the pitch wheel). Yes, you can do it with after touch but that is a little bit limited for me (if you want to play longer slids and want longer ranges between values). You can also asign modulation wheel, but I dont need it since I need it for well, modulation. . Modulation wheel would be my second choice if I dont have asignable knobs.

 

That is my experience on the matter.

 

Faruk

[aeon]

sudo:

 

There is an excellent example of just what you are describing for the recent E-mu Proteus2K-based instruments, described in the Yahoo Group for the XL-7 Command Station.

 

That said, it is an insanely complex programming example, and makes entensive use of the modulation matrix to control the slide speed, timbre, "fret" influence (pitch bumps), etc.

 

 

cheers,

aeon

[jay da cop]

The old DX7II used to brag about using the 2nd mod wheel for exactly this effect. There was supposed to be some way to bend specific notes (whether hand held, or pedal held). I think it also would bend highest or lowest value notes. I never tried it when I had mine, it just wasn't in our repertoire. Just a thought.

 

I keep my Ensoniq SQ80 for exactly the same reason as Prague, the poly aftertouch, plus it will change sounds on the fly. Why can't more manufacturers do this? It is such a cool feature.

 

Jay

[DafDuc]

I just bend down 1/2 step to the note - seems to fit the Duane Allman style pretty well.

 

Daf

[Bill H.]

I copy pedal steel parts a lot live. What works for me is to modulate T1 of Roland's Time Variant Amplifier with velocity. That way I can move one note of a slide with a soft touch without triggering it's attack, while moving the whole chord with the paddle. In a live setting (and with practice) it's pretty convincing. Roland's SRX-09 has some great pedal steels btw.

[BluesKeys]

I did it on a CD with the last band I was in.The Lap Steel player came in a laid down the original and his timing was off. He never made an effort to get back in the studio so I tried it on my Ensonic KS32 Steel Guitar patch and it worked. I just copied what he had done IN TIME.

 

Using the mod wheel I just set it at 1 full step and went after it. Of course the Steel Player quit after that CD was made. Never knew if he figured out I did one his part on that song.

 

Jim

www.slowhand.us

www.trickbag.net

[burningbusch]

I think some here are missing a subtle aspect of the original poster's question. He's not looking for a portamento (pedal steel guitar) effect. I think it's really the effect of sliding your finger up/down a string on a fretted instrument--smooth transitions to the next semitone.

 

The softsynth Real Guitar from Musiclab allows you to choose whether your pitch bend slides are traditional pitch bend (pitch) or, as the poster described, smooth connection between semitones without re-triggering the attack (slide).

 

BTW, most other aspects of the program are remarkably well done. For example, it will automatically change finger postions and play different samples based on those finger positions. You can set pitch bend to be 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 a semitone for much more realistic acoustic guitar bends and vibrato. True guitar chord voicing from simple keyboard chords. Up/down strums, etc., etc.

 

Busch.

[Phred]

That Continuum thing looks pretty cool... Note sure if I could play it well or not... Would be fun to try though

[coyote]

Yeah, looking at the original post I see your point.

 

And I think the answer is legato, at least in a monovoice context. If I set my JP8000 to a mono patch and gliss up the keys, each key has an attack analogous to picking a note. But if I use the legato switch, then only the first note has that attack; all subsequent notes have an identifiable beginning but NOT an original attack as they stay within the envelope of the first note.

Originally posted by burningbusch:

I think some here are missing a subtle aspect of the original poster's question. He's not looking for a portamento (pedal steel guitar) effect. I think it's really the effect of sliding your finger up/down a string on a fretted instrument--smooth transitions to the next semitone.

Busch.

But if you DID want to emulate bottle-slide, the way would be to understand how guitar slide works. You'd have to set up a filter/volume envelope that comes close to the envelope of an actual guitar note, then adjust it to reflect the changes that happen with slide as opposed to fretted playing (hint: tone gets thinner as slide notes decay). After that I'd think you'd want to assign it to your standard pitchbend control (wheel, paddle, or whatever) unless you have a long ribbon (as per Tusker's suggestion). AND you'd want the bend range to be extensive - slide is often used over a range of an octave or more.

From a note choice perspective, don't play only mono lines. Throw in some double-stops - thirds, perfect fourths, sixths - as harmonically appropriate. But don't slide whole chords, since guitarists really don't do this.

 

EDIT: On thinking a bit more, it's possible to slightly thicken the tone of a decaying slide note via added pressure - so if your keyboard has aftertouch you might want to assign your filter envelope shape to aftertouch. Just out of curiousity I might try making a slide patch this weekend.

[frostbyte]

A friend of mine used to get a really nice pedal steel guitar out of - of all things - the Casio VZ-1.

 

Basically, he was layering two identical patches on top of each other. One was set to receive the latch pedal, and one was not he would "strum" the notes of a chord, latch them with the hold pedal, and then use the top layer (in the mono mode) using a touch of portamento and pitch bend to "slide" the top note away from the held chord.

 

It took some practice, but it worked fairly well.

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by Phred:

That Continuum thing looks pretty cool... Note sure if I could play it well or not... Would be fun to try though

I would absolutely LOVE to have one of these... unfortunately, they're priced way out of my range ($5290 for the full-size model, $3390 for the half-size).

 

http://www.hakenaudio.com/Continuum/

 

Cheers,

SG

[sudo]

Wow that's a lot of stuff to check out - i'll take a look at the Emu P2K and Real Guitar for more details... and it looks like there are many techniques/programming tricks that might emulate what i'm looking for... definitely worth looking into as well.

 

Of course, the Coninuum looks pretty awesome but it's way too expensive and probably over the top for my needs - but I do prefer the ribbon for control, rather than a wheel or knob... - just feels more natural to slide up and down (which makes me wonder why not more keyboards/controllers support it)

 

Thanks for all the answers !

[Ricochet]

Originally posted by coyote:

But if you DID want to emulate bottle-slide, the way would be to understand how guitar slide works. You'd have to set up a filter/volume envelope that comes close to the envelope of an actual guitar note, then adjust it to reflect the changes that happen with slide as opposed to fretted playing (hint: tone gets thinner as slide notes decay).

Slide notes have an attack when the string's picked, much like "percussion" on an organ, but don't necessarily decay after that. Bottleneck slide's normally played with pretty much continuous vibrato, and the slide's friction keeps the strings singing. I can keep a note going till my arm tires out.

[coyote]

Guess it depends on the guitar, the pups, the effects, etc. I use a Strat with some overdrive, and the note definitely decays! True you can keep it going via constant movement, but the character of a note a few milliseconds after initial attack and its charcter after such a vibrato-induced sustain very widely.

Originally posted by Ricochet:

Slide notes have an attack when the string's picked, much like "percussion" on an organ, but don't necessarily decay after that.

 

Bottleneck slide's normally played with pretty much continuous vibrato, and the slide's friction keeps the strings singing. I can keep a note going till my arm tires out.