Anyone using Mackie hard disk recorders?

[Dan South]

Anyone using Mackie HDR's? Impressions?

[videoeditor1]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b]Anyone using Mackie HDR's? Impressions?[/b][/quote]In about 10 minutes, Where should be telling you how great his unit is - being able to do the Pro Tools thing etc etc. Never mind that the Alesis, Tascam and Radar units can use big drives, and his can't....

[Oiled]

I prefer Yamahamaha's HDR's.

[Wow]

Why did the SDR go from 2,000 to 1,300 in the sweetwater mag? Are the units not selling, and why?

[Anita Fix]

We've had a Mackie HDR since Sept. and it works great. More like a tape recorder than ProTools is but I'd say PT is faster for precise editing. Maybe it's cuz I have a lot more experience in PT. The HDR lacks a couple features of PT, like blowing up the waveform size at a given zoom and the available screen colors on the HDR are a bit dull. I prefer the Mackie for music recording and PT for voice-overs and narrative stuff. We tried out a Radar too, but it was too much $ for us at the time, the HDR was half as much. The D8B with the HDR is giving us a lot of capabilities and features at a price I can bear considering the market I work in.

[Chuck Surack]

[quote]Originally posted by C.M.: [b]Why did the SDR go from 2,000 to 1,300 in the sweetwater mag? Are the units not selling, and why?[/b][/quote]Basically, the price went down because Mackie lowered the price to us. They never told me specifically why they lowered the price, but it is pretty easy for me to speculate. Bottom line is that none of the self contained units are selling as well as all the manufacturers had hoped. The Roland VS stuff is still selling at a good clip, while all the others (Mackie, Tascam, Fostex, Alesis) are all great units, (and we do sell many of each every month ) they are just not "flying out the door". You can see it by the questions/discussions here...so many people want to have all the advantages a computer system brings. Saying that, clearly there are good applications for the self contained units, too. I own a Mackie MDR and it is great for portable work and quick, painless recording. I interface it with my Digital Performer rig and ProTools, too! I use them all. I think some customers get "too religious" about brands and formats. They are all tools...and fortunately we have lots of great, inexpensive choices. Why is it ok for guitarists and keyboardists to have multiple instruments, yet we are supposed to own only 1 recorder??? I'd also say get the technology out of the way and just "play the music". Chuck

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Chuck Surack: [b]Bottom line is that none of the self contained units are selling as well as all the manufacturers had hoped. [/b][/quote]I bought an MDR from your business about a year ago. Not knowing they would NEVER get around to updating the HD capacity. Presuming they would support it as well as one might expect when something costs that much. Not knowing they would soon come out with the SDR. The track renumbering I can deal with; I would think it would be an easy thing for them to implement the HDR track naming scheme from a programming standpoint, but it appears the Neo Guarde at Mackie feel it's not worth the effort. IN THE MEANTIME, you've got a lot of pissed off MDR owners. Basically, we were used to beta test a product. It works well enough; I'm now trying to figure out if I can use an OPT8 card with an Event EZbus as a pass-through front end for my DAW, because apparently no one at Mackie either understands what that means or they don't know if it will work or not. I wish I had half of my money so I could get a Motu 24I/O now, but of course it's not worth even that much at this point, thanks to the hard drive limitation (for those of you who don't know - you can't use drives larger than 20 gigs in them. Which is limiting - AND drives that work are getting harder to find) - so I can't really sell it. I'd get an OPT24 card, but by the time I spent money for that and some sort of lightpipe card for my computer I may as well buy a 24I/O. It works fine, the converters sound like the converters in a D8 buss (ok), the transport controls work as expected... but the track relabeling scheme (you get a new assortment of .wav files everytime you do any transport function) and the way you have to un-truncate the files after FTP'ing them in (which, again, could have been made ALOT easier with a simple little utility program... but apparently they saw planned obsolescence from the outset and didn't bother)... SO, PLUSES: Decent sound Straightforward self-contained operation MINUSES: Obsolescent after 1 year Hard drive size limitation Obfuscated FTP file-transfer (I've heard that's partly to blame for the SDR; the Firewire file transfer isn't as fast...?) Renames wav files anytime you stop the machine Truncates wav files every 15 minutes so you have to recombine them later; makes recording live shows a hassle. REALLY big hassle if you change track arming "Support" consists of other stranded users on their web page forum (and Mike Rivers) No manual! DB25 connectors don't accept all DB25 connectors "the "96" bit of the 24/96 label is misleading; you can't really record 24 tracks at 96k. Oops, actually it really should be called the "24/48 since that's all it will do out of the box. It was a cool thing when it debuted. It had a lot going for it over the Alesis IMO. However, had I known they were going to come out with the cheaper(at the time) SDR so quickly, while at the same time basically just letting the MDR languish from a support standpoint - I wouldn't have bought it. So basically I hardly use it since it's a lot easier on a day to day basis to record straight into my DAW with my 20 bit Event Gina. 2 channels. Meanwhile, I have 24 channels of "nicer" (yeah, I know, not Rosendahl or whatever) 24bit converters just sitting there. Great. Yeah, it works pretty much as expected, minus the obsolescence and the hard drive situation (and I didn't know about the track truncation bit either... oh well) I am not blaming Sweetwater, but it irks me none the less. [b]You can see it by the questions/discussions here...so many people want to have all the advantages a computer system brings. [/b] From *my* perspective - and I would imagine many routine users - I want the easiest path into my DAW. At the time the MDR with FTP was it, and it promised to be a little more straightforward; I have to reconfigure my TCP settings evreytime I use it, among other things - big hassle. All stand alone systems are going to drag sales wise until that concept is addressed; any new DAW Roland puts out, or whoever, better have a comprehensive real-time/simple I/O path to a computer. Frick. [b]MDR and it is great for portable work and quick, painless recording. I interface it with my Digital Performer rig and ProTools, too! I use them all.[/b] "Painless"? Surely you're not FTP'ing things, you're probably using the OPT24 I bet, right? I'd like to have something like the 24I/O - the notion of having dedicated ins for my preamps and "whatever" just sitting there waiting to go is very appealing; but I've already got a practically unused MDR24 sitting there. So maybe you can tell me - if I were to find an OPT8 card and some sort of lightpipe card for my computer, will it pass audio in rt or would I have to record it and then play it back into my DAW? Geez. When does the MOTU 24I/O ship? [b]keyboardists to have multiple instruments, yet we are supposed to own only 1 recorder??? [/b] I still use my VS at live gigs and for backing tracks at coffeehouse solo-"things". Still fairly useful, due to it's size and robust (although ridiculously arcane) OS.

[Valkyrie Sound]

I'm love my Alesis HD24.... it's gonna be even better when they get the direct computer firewire interface going for file transfers....nice for all my remote gigs. Valky

[Dan South]

C'mon Chip, tell us how you REALLY feel! ;)

[ernest828]

Chip, You have every reason to feel pissed. I would be too. I own a d8b and love it but I`ve been pissed too with Mackie for the last year over no response about certain issues and it doesn`t look like its been addressed yet either with V5. The stand alone units IMO are worthless. My DP3 setup rocks with the d8b and there is no use for a stand alone unit...they`ll end up in the same bin as the ADAT. EJB

[Valkyrie Sound]

[quote]Originally posted by ernest828@aol.com: [b]Chip, The stand alone units IMO are worthless. My DP3 setup rocks with the d8b and there is no use for a stand alone unit...they`ll end up in the same bin as the ADAT. EJB[/b][/quote]Worthless for YOUR application.... maybe... Worthless for remote live recording? Never... Valky

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b]C'mon Chip, tell us how you REALLY feel! ;) [/b][/quote] Actually, ok, why not? No, I'll refrain. I will say with reservations - it's good that someone like Surack has the gonads to actually put a face on his company in a public forum like this. Actually, it is sort of precedent setting, a good one; it would be nice to see other "larger" companies be willing to "risk" being a real person in a real setting. Yields a sense of responsibility. I haven't bought anything from Fletcher (yet, I will at some point), but I've watched him stand up for his business online from the start years and years ago, and it speaks highly of his business - he's willing to go to bat for it and doesn't seem to compromise his personal beliefs because of it. That alone makes me want to buy something from him, and I think it would be safe to say his online "Legendary" persona probably accounts for a considerable portion of his business success. I know if he reads this he's cringing from being in the same paragraph with the Evil Empire of Audio (sorry Mr. Surack), but it *could* be a nice trend to see develop: the re-personalization of mass-retail. On the other hand I'm not exactly sure I "appreciate" Nika being the Ambassador of Sweetwater by Proxy around here for Chuck Surack, deliberate or not - that has a slight off-color tinge to it, but he obviously handles it with an equisite delicacy (curiously I'm thinking "Pieter DeVries" (sorry Nika, if that means anything))- but I applaud Surack for his willingness to "risk all". Who is the "face" of Guitar Center? Who is the face of WalMart? McDonald's? Honda? Sony? The Achille's heel of all of the big box companies is that they can't put a personal identity on their service; Sam Walton managed to do that as a sole owner, and that built WalMart up quite a bit (am I the only person that remembers the big stickers on the floor at the entrances of Walmarts that said (para) "only U.S. made Products sold here - sam walton"?); but he's gone now. Greg Mackie sort of kinda sorta did it at first; others have sort of done similar things, but not online (outside of Fletcher, and to a degree Eveanna Manley and John Suhr). I like buying things from *people*. Interesting....

[where02190]

NYC Drew, sorry I was late.... We've been using a Mackie HDR 24/96 for over 2 yrs now with great success. The 32gb drive limit has yet to be an issue, as I prefer to use smaller drives rather than risk it all on one anyway, and keep separate drives for each client. The recent HDR PRO software/hardware packaqe is a great tool for those with clients coming in or wanting to go out with PT sessions. Mackie tech support is some of the best I've ever seen. FWIW, although Mackie had discontinued production of the MDR, they have clearly stated that they will continue to release upgrades, as well as continue support for the machine. They stated minimal net return as the reason for it's discontinuance. All the recently developed HD recorders will do the task at hand: record good quality audio at a very reasonable price. None of them are marketed as traditional DAWs, but as stand alone recorders. By themselves they do little more than record and playback, with some basic editing features. However, compared to the cost of a 2" machine (not to mention it's dificulty in portability) the quality of the previous generation of digital recorders (ADAT, DA-88) they are excellent technological advances for the money. Hope this is helpful

[Wow]

Chip's layin the smack down.

[Chuck Surack]

[/qb][/QUOTE]I bought an MDR from your business about a year ago. Thanks for the business Chip. Saying that, I am sorry you are disappointed with your MDR. I am not going to try and answer every point you brought up, because I agree with you on most of them. Remember, I said I personally own one, too! I am not sure about having a lot of pissed off customers because of the MDR. In fact, I know of many who love it. We sold quite a few of them. It will not make you (or me) feel any better, but to give you some perspective, here are my thoughts as to what went on with the Mackie stuff. When the MDR was brought out, it was really a quick way for Mackie to use many of the parts that were stockpiling due to slow HDR sales. (Take 1 HDR, remove the editing/change a couple of other things and voila, you have an MDR for WAY less money than the HDR) In the mean time they have purchased Sydec/Soundscape who is working separately on the SDR which is supposedly coming out quite a while later. Bottom line is that the HDR and the MDR are not selling too well, so Mackie rushes to get the SDR out (and it was crippled at first) and this creates the product MDR/SDR overlap. The lack of further development is surely a direct reflection on the common knowledge that Mackie is struggling for their very survival. Not a pretty sight.. Anyway, on to your setup specifically. First off, THANK GOODNESS it does work. Maybe, it does not have as many features as we had hoped for, but in fairness they never promised them either. (They were actually very coy about what to expect on the MDR) I am just glad it works, and it doesn't crash or have any "showstoppers". I checked our records and fortunately, you got your unit at the introductory price and with a discount, too. I know that doesn't make you feel better, but you didn't get hurt as bad as you could have. Again, I am not making light of what you spent, I am just reminding you to try and put it in perspective. 1 year later, and it does do what they promised. I am also sure you know there is a .pdf of the manual and other supporting stuff at [url=http://www.mackie.com/record/mdr2496/MDR2496_downloads.html]Mackie MDR download page[/url] . I have no idea if the opt-8 will pass audio in real time (I suspect it would). If you want to try it I'll be happy to send you a free card if you think you'd really use it. As for the 24i/o, MOTU has not given us a real ship date, but I am guessing late Jan or Feb. If you want to trade in your MDR I would be happy to trade it even up for 24i/o. I can move your MDR pretty easily if you are really that disappointed. Evil Empire of Audio...ouch! How did I get that title? Is that really fair? I do appreciate your other kind words, though. I don't really feel I am taking a "risk" at all. I am just doing the only thing I know how to do... Communicate and ALWAYS do the right thing for every person, in every situation.. whether it is a customer, a friend, a family member, it doesn't matter just [b]always[/b] do "the right thing". It is actually pretty easy and very obvious to me. It is not some marketing "ploy" I just made up, this is just the way I "am wired"... I have always have been this way. It is the ONLY way I know how to think. As for Nika being the Ambassador of Sweetwater by Proxy ...he really wasn't acting on my behalf. He was just doing what he enjoys doing, learning and teaching about gear/audio, etc. You said it really well, he has handled his posts with delicacy. (Great choice of words!) I think most members would agree he has "given" more than he has taken. Chip, thanks for the great dialog and I am serious about both of my offers...just let me know. Thanks Chuck

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Chuck Surack: [b]It will not make you (or me) feel any better, but to give you some perspective, here are my thoughts as to what went on with the Mackie stuff.[/b][/quote]Thanks for the info, although I had figured it was something exactly along those lines. I'm sure hurried positioning relative to Alesis' offering played a strong role behind the scenes, and countering their vaporware rep as well. One thing, though - as a "Mackie product", I didn't expect something "hurried". Dangerous waters to tread in, computer hardware... [b]etter, but you didn't get hurt as bad as you could have. Again, I am not making light of what [/b] No, as I said you gave me what was the best deal at the time. Those are the breaks I know. [b]I am also sure you know there is a .pdf of the manual and other supporting stuff at [/b] Yeah, it's just sort of tacky they couldn't have had it worked up in the box. Kudos to Mike Rivers for being there after the fact; he appears to be their best employee even though he really isn't one. [b]Evil Empire of Audio...ouch! How did I get that title? Is that really fair? I do appreciate your other kind words, though.[/b] It's not exactly derogatory as much as .... attribution of Market Dominance Exansion Characteristics. It's perhaps paradoxical from your viewpoint, but the things that have made your company quizzically engender traits traditionally associated with non-"rock and roll anti-establishment" philosophy: efficiency in company management (apparently), cohesive company structure and attitude, etc... - and I understand you have a dress code? But really, the reference is more to the fact it appears your company is a rolling juggernaut - your catalogs continue to become better gear-porn, you seem to be appearing in all the right places from an advertisement standpoint - as well as more often, and it also appears your company is doing very well financially in a time of "a great disturbance" in music retail. And I suppose Nika's pervasive presence here combines for a "Large Monolithic Force". Which is of course what you want, right? You are doing quite well to separate yourself from what I suppose is the True Evil Empire - Guitar Center. On that note, I would speculate that it's probably to your advantage to continue to solidify your dominant pro-audio identity and not get too leveraged in the other aspects of music retail as it looks like you're about to try to do (with the guitar lines)? An analog perhaps being Lotus relative to Microsoft circa about 1991 perhaps...? [b]delicacy. (Great choice of words!) I think most members would agree he has "given" more than he has taken.[/b] I'm not criticizing Nika or yourself, in fact I believe it's a good thing you're not reigning in employees or that your employees don't *feel* reigned in. I find it curious that outside of the people I previously mentioned, Tascam Jeff, and the guy from Blue Sky monitors (sorry I forget his name), you seldom see any of the "major" manufacturers here. I know they are lurking, but of course they don't participate. It's curious because I think to myself "if *I* owned such a company, I'd be all over making sure I wasn't missing anything because of a distorted perspective. It kills me Roland to this day makes the crappiest manuals on the planet - EVERYONE knows it, and what has been done about it? Nothing. Things like that, where if it was a friend you'd say "hey, uhm... you know, uhm... maybe you shouldn't wear uhm black socks with gym shorts and a belt?". It's easy to spot things like that around here since it's a pretty distilled bunch of people that post here (and the PSW forums). [b]Chip, thanks for the great dialog and I am serious about both of my offers...just let me know.[/b] It's interesting to see you posting here, you seem to have a facile grasp of the dynamic here. I appreciate your generosity; I think I intend on taking you up on the trade in offer on a 24I/O. I'll send you an email tomorrow (today) after work if that suits...?

[where02190]

Manual...a fiull one..in the box? That's funny, I can't remember the e I saw one of those. It's a production cost saving measure, either provide a CD manual or PDF online. Much cheaper. A total PITA as it is difficult at best to read a manual on your computer while tying to work on the same computer. FWIW, you can also get the OPT-24 card for your MDR or HDR, which allows simultanious lightpipe and analog in/out (provided you have AIO-8 cards installed) on all 24 channels. Hope this is helpful.

[RangerJay]

I use a Mackie HDR with a Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 analog mixer (which I did obtain from Sweetwater) on the front end. I use extra drive trays to offload material to my computer, where I can import the files into Cubase SX (where I can use my UAD-1 effects) or Pro Tools for final mixdown and "sweetening." I never even attempted to use the FTP capability. Sure, the hard-drive size limitation is a pain, but you can find 30-gig drives at a bargain, and 30 gigs is plenty of room for a removable drive. Overall, I am happy with my setup. Sounds excellent, and having a GUI to make things easy-to-use is a big plus. Add a Remote 24, and it makes for a very stable and efficient recording system. For me, it's close to perfect. Very "analog" sounding. Very "trouble-free" to boot.

[Chuck Surack]

Chip, Thanks again for the kind words/vote of confidence. Re> On that note, I would speculate that it's probably to your advantage to continue to solidify your dominant pro-audio identity and not get too leveraged in the other aspects of music retail as it looks like you're about to try to do (with the guitar lines)? Yes, I agree we do not want to lose our focus. I really didn't intend to do Guitar lines, but to be honest, we have had so many customers ask us to carry guitars that I finally gave in. I kept hearing over and over, "we buy most all of our stuff from you, why do you make us go to your competitors for guitars?" I don't think we will be selling Grand Pianos (hm, a studio grand could be cool ) or Band Instruments. I'm with you, Pro-Audio is where it is at for me. That is the business I love, and the business that I think we bring the most value to. re> I understand you have a dress code? I think this one is so funny. I watched the thread a couple of weeks ago and I was laughing out loud, it was so funny! We do not have a "suit rule" . In fact, I checked our employee handbook, and our "official policy" says..."appropriate dress depends to a great degree on the employee's responsibilities; however, casual clothing such as overalls, shorts or worn tattered blue jeans should not be considered proper attire.... Yes, there are a lot of ties in the building, but it is not required or even suggested by me. I do think the culture of our sales department, being so professional, coupled with the fact that so many of my people come from a variety of other backgrounds, it just becomes "kind of the standard". There are VERY few "suits" here, quite a few ties, sweaters, open collars, etc. I am just glad I don't have to see a bunch of slobs or "plumber cracks" (sorry plumbers). re>I think I intend on taking you up on the trade in offer on a 24I/O. I'll send you an email tomorrow (today) after work if that suits...? Email me, as I said though, I am not sure when they are really going to ship the 24i/o units. Hopefully, it will be soon. Chuck

[Yuri T.]

Mackie just wanted to beat the Alesis HD24 to market by stripping down the HDR to an MDR I was thinking one day that Mackie should sell an MDR to HDR upgrade kit. From what I can see it's just a couple pieces of hardware, software and probably a firmware upgrade. Sure they would rather sell new HDRs but hey, fill the nitch with an easy sell. The software is already written right? The little kick in the finacial pants would be worth it to them. No R & D cost just simple marketing and packaging. I think almost every MDR owner could be sold if the price was right.

[Dan South]

Are any of these boxes still in production? Discontinued? If still in production, have these issues been worked out?

[ernest828]

I`ve read this thread with great interest because I now see how laxed mackie has become in all of their products...The MDR is non existent and the d8b was on the back burner for over a year. Now they are trying to empty out the warehouse with their d8bonanza that will only lead to their new digital mixer. All this makes me very uncomfortable about Mackies future. Hearing Chips story about the MDR is truly an aweful example of how Mackie has slowly become part of the audio world and not apart from it as they once were when I first purchased their products in `97. EJB

[mikegrijak]

Actually, I think if Chuck does really well with the guitar lines, with his sense of MI as a whole, he should take sweetwater national and run right up against GC and offer an alternative nationwide MI chain. I really think MARS failure is not going to hurt national MI in the long run. You would think that there WILL be a national alternative to GC. There are just too many MI dollars to ignore! Don't you all agree that it is more than likely going to happen?

[Yuri T.]

[quote]Originally posted by mikegrijak: [b]Actually, I think if Chuck does really well with the guitar lines, with his sense of MI as a whole, he should take sweetwater national and run right up against GC and offer an alternative nationwide MI chain. I really think MARS failure is not going to hurt national MI in the long run. You would think that there WILL be a national alternative to GC. There are just too many MI dollars to ignore! Don't you all agree that it is more than likely going to happen?[/b][/quote]Personally I prefer local merchants to national chains and always have. I think Sweetwater holds a perfect niche in the industry but locally I want someone who knows the area and can tailor the business to it. That's where the Mars and GCs lose it.

[Chuck Surack]

Hi Mike (and others), re> Actually, I think if Chuck does really well with the guitar lines, with his sense of MI as a whole, he should take sweetwater national .. Wow, I appreciate the confidence, but I really like what we are doing now. I don't think I would really want to do a "slugfest" with GC. Saying that, this is a great and very interesting topic to me. Although I am not interested in competing with them head to head in local markets, if someone was going to do it , what would you do better? What would you do different? How would you pay for it? Chuck

[Chuck Surack]

Chip, Regarding my earlier statement "I have no idea if the opt-8 will pass audio in real time" I confirmed that it is [b]not[/b] possible to route analog inputs to optical outs, so you could [b]not[/b] use the MDR as an "A to D" in real time. Chuck

[where02190]

[quote]Originally posted by Chuck Surack: [b]Chip, Regarding my earlier statement "I have no idea if the opt-8 will pass audio in real time" I confirmed that it is [b]not[/b] possible to route analog inputs to optical outs, so you could [b]not[/b] use the MDR as an "A to D" in real time. Chuck[/b][/quote]I believe it is possible to pass analog inputs through to lightpipe outs using the AIO-8 and Opt-24 cards. Dan South, both the SDR and HDR are still very much in production. the drive limitation of the HDR (32gb) is a mb and bios issue, but as I noted, it is really not an issue. a 32gb drive will hold over 3 hrs of 24 track 24 bit 44.1k audio. Drives are cheap if you DYI (as most Mackie owners do) and having client dedicated drives is an easy way to keep files in order. MDR owners continue to receive full tech support from Mackie, available via an 800 number, and free to anyone with the products, no expirations. Mackie is continuing to develop upgrades to the MDR as well. The D8B has been around for a long time, and IMHO Mackie should be thinking of replacing it with newer technology. Hope this is helpful.

[Chuck Surack]

[quote]Originally posted by where02190: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Chuck Surack: [/b][/quote]I believe it is possible to pass analog inputs through to lightpipe outs using the AIO-8 and Opt-24 cards. .[/QB][/quote]That is correct. The Opt-24 behaves differently than the Opt-8's.  The Opt-24 "mirrors" the outputs of all the other cards.  So that should work. Chuck