Sonic Foundry: On the chopping block?

[DJDM]

[url=http://www.abcdv.com/article/articleview/47/1/71]Short article here[/url] This was news to me... anyone else hear about this? Perhaps sending me and thousands of others glossy catalogs 12 times a year was not financially viable after all?

[Alndln]

[quote]Originally posted by DJDM: [b] anyone else hear about this? [/b][/quote]Found it here about 6 pages back. [url=http://www.musicgearnetwork.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009743]www.musicgearnetwork.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009743[/url] They should have combined Acid/Vegas/Vegas Video with Sound Forge editing capbilities with VSTi and either Asio or WDM support a long time instead of doing none of those things.Instead they stood idely by and watched Sonar take their market.

[Nawledge]

there not going out very nobily either, on their website they still charge like $300 bucks, and their ugrade version is 149.00, thing is that musicians friend is selling full version for 149.00, since i bought acid pro 3.0 they should let me upgrade for less than $149.00 me thinks!!!

[Mats Olsson.]

Why is this happening? Bad products or are they yet another victim of piracy? /Mats

[Nawor]

I'm just glad I bought my Acoustic Mirror as a stand alone DX plugin BEFORE it was incorporated into Soundeforge 6.0 and dropped from their product range. In fact I think SF was about the first company to bring out a functional convolution based impulse modelling plugin... am I wrong? :confused:

[Erik Nygaard]

[quote]Originally posted by Mats_Olsson: [b]Why is this happening? Bad products or are they yet another victim of piracy? /Mats[/b][/quote]I think the SF standalone products are very good with one of the best interfaces in the business Also SF have been a bit whimsical re the focus of their products. Vegas Video is actually my favourite audio multitracker/mixer, but it lacks any midi and the CD-burning abilities are only almost there. CD-Architect is a great mastering/CD-burner, but its capabilities should be incorporated in Sound Forge (their audio editor). Acid Pro-4 is the best looping app IMO, but it was released too early with too many bugs. Erik

[Philip OKeefe]

Bummer. :( [b]IF[/b] they sell off the audio / video editing stuff (and the articles say they're in negotiations with someone... hmmm, I wonder who?) and IF the new owners don't support current owners... and / or IF they just go out of business, all I can say is I'm glad I know where I can get ahold of CRACKED versions of the stuff I've already PAID FOR... because their SOFTWARE COPY PROTECTION (the concept of which is a joke - see my comment above pertaining to the availability of CRACKED VERSIONS of these supposedly "copy protected" software titles) requires a challenge / response! Sure, you can do it online now, or via an email or phone call to Sonic Foundry, but every time you reformat your HDD, you have to reinstall AND reauthorize... and I've had to do that more than a few times. CLASSIC example of how copy protection does NOT help prevent piracy or help protect the company's assets while simultaneously being a fat royal PITA for the legitimate users who pay good money and are the ONLY onesw inconvienienced by the "protection". Sorry for the rant - I feel sorry for Sonic Foundry, I really do. I love their software (especially Acoustic Mirror and Sound Forge, although I also own Vegas and Acid), but the challenge / response copy protection method SUX if the company goes under - the end user is the one who REALLY gets shafted.

[Alndln]

Challenge/response,bandwidth stealing USB dongles,registry screwing pace,take your pick,they all don't work and all have negative aspects.As I posted above,Sonic Foundry dropped the ball by letting Sonar claim their market.They had all the tools and more but they just didn't combine them.Although Vegas is a fine app,who's going to use a multitracking app in this day and age with no Asio or WDM support for low latencey?Throw in no direct support for Virtual Instruments as well,although Acid 3.0 did incorperate those very things they did so way too late,and on the wrong app,should of been Vegas.Warez/Cracks hurt everyone across the board,but when you hurt yourself(drag your feet on technology)) and your customers(challenge/response)that's a recipe for doom.

[BP3]

I smell Microsoft. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Nawledge]

I forgot all about that PhiL, thats why I don't have my legitemate copy of acid pro 3.0 loaded on my machine now, not only do you have to go through that calling them on the phone mess, but every time I did I got the third degree from whom ever was on the other end of the line, I've even had to reinerate the fact that I bought the software from them so they should talk nice. oh well, I hope Ableton buys them out although I don't think they have the money.

[Alndln]

[quote]Originally posted by TinderArts: [b]I smell Microsoft. [/b][/quote]As long as were making no sense............I smell Bralalalalala :eek:

[Jotown]

I like the Sonic Foundry stuff and I hope that they make it.

[Philip OKeefe]

Me too Jotown, but while piracy has probably hurt them (and many people will blame their troubles exclusively on that), IMO, they've made some incredibly BAD business decisions. Instead of offering the apps that people WANT, they slice and dice and offer all sorts of products, none of which have most (yet alone anywhere near ALL) of the features users have come to expect. A few examples of things they've done that had me scratching my head: 1. Adding features from one (formerly seperate purchase) product to another. The Efx bundles being added to Sound Forge and Vegas are examples of this, as is the addition of Acoustic Mirror (formerly "Acoustic Modeller") to SF 5. It is a nice "value added" thing, but OTOH, it ticked a few people off who had just bought the program (Acoustic Modeller) only to find out that it was "free" with the next upgrade of the main stereo editor (SF 5). Yeah, I was in that group. :rolleyes: 2. No MIDI sequencing. Come on folks, Vegas is cool, but without MIDI, you're not going to be competitive. Okay, they added MIDI playback to Acid (cool), but it's NOT a sequencer. They flat out don't HAVE a sequencer. Vegas could never compete as a true DAW without this capability. 3. CD Architect. Let's say you went out and bought it around the time of SF 4 or 4.5. It's a killer app, and you dig it. Then you buy the upgrade to 5.0, only to find it no longer works with the new version. Sonic Foundry tells all of us that there were technical reasons why they couldn't make it compatable with SF 5. At the time, I recall many people thinking / saying "BS". Then they ADD CD-A to Vegas Video 3. Whaaa ? :confused: Oh yeah, RIGHT! The multitrack program is the one that should have the mastering type CD burning capabilities (PQ editing, etc). :rolleyes: They suggested that everyone buy Vegas Video to get the CD-A capabilities with support for newer CD-R drives. Some did, but many said "BS" a few more times and didn't. 4. Speaking of Vegas, the Vegas Audio purchasers had to upgrade to Vegas Video, since the "Audio" version was dumped after 2.0. What if you don't NEED more video capabilities? Vegas SHOULD be a audio app, and there should be something else for audio / video... okay, two versions of Vegas made sense (at least to me), but then they drop "Vegas Audio" and a lot of people see "Video" in the title and assume it's NOT what they need when it may indeed may have fit their needs very well (lack of MIDI features notwithstanding). Confuse the customer - yeah, THAT'S a good business pratice. 5. Then we have CD Architect 5. After dumping all the original CD-A users, and trying to convince as many people as possible they needed to buy the MULTITRACK app just to burn some CD's with edited PQ's, they come out with a NEW version of CD-A. I guess they figured out how to support newer drives all of the sudden - the inability to do so being one of their main stated reasons for dropping the first version and not adding it to SF 5 in the first place. Is it just me or shouldn't the CD burning app be in the 2 track editor and not the multitrack app? 6. The company's image and focus started veering away from the pro audio world and into many other areas. Heck, you can get some of their software at Best Buy or Circuit City... Which is kind of cool, but OTOH, they lost sight of what had once been their core customer group and IMO, became too fragmented and unfocused and invested too many of their corporate resources in too many areas at once. The impression a lot of users ended up getting was the Sonic Foundry wanted to sell us stuff piecemeal, and to sell us the same stuff more than once. And that they were not all that interested in the needs of the pro audio community and in giving us what we wanted as opposed to what they 1) "thought" we wanted / needed or 2) could get away with selling to us twice (or three times). Yes, I know this may seem harsh. I am not trying to kick 'em when they're down, but IMO, some of their troubles are definitely self inflicted. I like some of their software, and their user interfaces and general "look" is great, and I do indeed hope they pull through - remember, I've BOUGHT a lot of their stuff - but I don't think piracy can be blamed [i]exclusively[/i] for all their woes. Maybe they'll sell the audio division off to someone who can use it. Digidesign could certainly use the Acid style looping in PT, but like, fer sure dude, THAT'S going to happen. Steinberg? I don't see where it benefits them. Besides, weren't they just purchased by someone else? Apple? HA! They've just bought Emagic, and besides, SF's a Wintel company - Apple wouldn't know what to do with it except kill off Windows support. Oh well. :rolleyes:

[Dylan]

Wow, Phil. I could not have said it better. That summarized just about *everything* that I've felt about SF over the past few years. I've actually been shot down by SF employees when I suggested that they shouldn't have killed CDA or could have lowered the price to be more competitive with other CD apps (around $100) to help keep the prodcut alive. I can't tell you how steamed I was to see them bring back CDA only after they had justed pimped out the same features with Vegas Video 3 months before. Had I known that CDA 5 was coming out I would have waited and upgraded to it instead. Also, when VV3 first came out many of the audio-savvy users felt like they were getting left behind and as the company was obviously focusing a lot more on video than it had in the past. I remember hearing from a SF rep that they intended on adding new audio features with updates, but I've yet to see anything. Anything usefull at least, like low latency monitoring, ASIO or WDM support. Don't even get me started on ACID 4.0. Why do they put their best audio features (ASIO, Surround, etc) in a friggin' loop program where most people are working with nothing more than 16-bit/stereo material :mad: ? And in the meantime Vegas is going...nowhere??? It would take some big changes at SF for me to consider ever spending another dime on their products. If they bundled the features of SF, ACID, Vegas, and CDA into one well-laid out program I might consider it. -Dylan

[Jotown]

[quote]Me too Jotown, but while piracy has probably hurt them (and many people will blame their troubles exclusively on that), IMO, they've made some incredibly BAD business decisions. [/quote]Great post Phil. I wasn't saying that they haven't made some real blunders, but with Alesis last year, Mackie having trouble, Stienberg being bought, now Sonic Foundry floundering, (Sonic Floundery?) things are looking rough in the pro-audio world. I have been saying for awhile that the economy is alot worse than people realize. Just more evidence of that I suppose. I just don't want to see anyone else fall.

[Philip OKeefe]

I know [b]Jotown[/b]... I wasn't specifically addressing all that to you per se, because I know you weren't saying they have not made any mistakes. I was just pointing out that while I share your opinion that it will be nice if they DO pull through (or someone purchases their audio division and "runs with it"), I think (independent of any of your comments) that if the company DOES fail, they are largely to blame for it. The more competition and options that are available to us, the end users, the better. I totally agree with that, and I see an alarming decrease in said options. Fortunately, there's still the "big three" left on the PC side - Digidesign PT, Cakewalk Sonar and Steinberg Cuebase SX / Nuendo - and they have enough features and differences to represent real choices and options to the end users. But that may not hold true for long if piracy makes it unprofitable for these companies to continue to spend the development bucks and not have a reasonable expectation of seeing a return on that investment. I'm sure that has ben part of the problem for Sonic Foundry, but as I tried to point out in my last couple of posts, that's only a small part of their current problems IMO. [b]Dr. Flaven[/b], I totally forgot to mention the VV3 fiasco where they promised the Vegas Audio users that "more audio features would be added to VV3 with future updates". EXCELLENT point - Thanks for mentioning it! Yeah, they really followed up on THAT promise, didn't they? Your comments regarding Acid 4.0 were also on the mark AFAIC - while I can see the reasoning behind adding those features to Acid, I can't see why they WOULDN'T add them to Vegas - unless they wanted to try to get more people into buying yet another program from them. IMO, if they DID make a program with the Acid, Vegas and Sound Forge features all included, they'd have to call it "Sonar". Oops, I guess Cakewalk beat them to it. :p :D Seriously, THAT's what they should have done a long time ago IMO - at least combine Vegas and Acid, with a REAL MIDI sequencer built in. [b]Sonic Foundry[/b]: It's probably too late for this advice (and you've heard it all before), but IMO you should sell SF seperately with CD-A included (or as an extra cost optional plug in), sell a seperate version of Acid for the "loop crowd", a videocentric version of Vegas for the A/V crowd, and combine Acid and Vegas and add a REAL sequencer to the bundle for everyone else in the audio world (ie, make a "real" DAW), and quit playing shell games with the products and features. Best of luck guys, I hope you pull through. IMO, you'd have a better chance of it if you listened a bit more to what your customers are asking for and if you weren't so unfocused in your products and services. Oh, I guess you're TRYING to focus - too bad (for us audio folks) it's going to be by dumping all the audio stuff in favor of your other business interests.

[Nawledge]

every single mag review said that when acid pro 3.0 came out that it was a big dissapointment, from computer music to recording all of them said that it was not enough to warrant an upgrade. but... I still bought it and outside of the beatmapper i could have stayed with version 2.0, Acid 3.0 should have actualy been everything that 4.0 is minus all the bugs. what is the diff between vegas and Acid besides the video stuff?

[spokenward]

I use and pay for SF software. I share Jotown's sense of dread. I want good products to survive whether they come from SF or Mackie or Steinberg. And this is a perilous economy. SF is a sort of B-school casestudy. They picked the wrong targets. They believed that there would be no Macintosh based solutions in the long run. They believed that digidesign was vulnerable in that transfer. They hated Steinberg because they had a competitive product - Wavelab. They did not understand urgently that the real competition was Macintosh. I switched from Macintosh to PC because of SoundForge. It worked better than SDII or Peak. It was a no brainer. Cheap hardware made it easy. Because Steinberg was the competition they probably couldn't bring themselves to license ASIO. Because they couldn't believe that digidesign was the competition they bundled SF with AudioMedia. They were early in the "multimedia" market. Early enough to not realize that there would be no "multimedia" market. It didn't exist. They never captured the higher end of the production environment. Wavelab supported higher bit resolutions before Forge did. There were problems of scale - Distribution is a critical missing element in software publishing. They were too small to market themselves. The box merchants dumped out their products and quickly returned it. And then they applied themselves to video. They have a product that is hugely better than Premiere and compares credibly with FCP and they can't reach a market. They are neither high nor low. (honestly just buy this thing - it's swell and Premiere is a porker) Along the way they dealt with limited resources. Only so many coders. Only so many marketing dollars. They went public which placed demands for growth. They grew by acquisition which probably further stretched resources. So somebody should probably acquire these software products and their attendant user base. So perhaps a few suggestions to get this party started. Maybe Roland should buy Vegas and build their edirol business. Maybe Tascam should buy SF and put a real editor on Giga. Maybe Sony should buy the lot and brand Screenblast with great media creation tools and bundle Vegas with miniDV camcorders. Maybe Yamaha should buy it because Roland really should want it. Come on, let's draw out some bidders! Pat