Is this an unhealthy attitude towards other musicians?

[phaeton]

/** this is long, but when am i ever brief? **/ Ok. here it is. I'm gonna say it. I'm rather apprehensive about sharing my music with other musicians unless i know they won't rip it off. My music and my songs are my little treasure. MINE. I want to send my music out into the world, and i want to share it. And i can't do it alone. But i fear nothing more in my musical life, than to get into some band, lay out all these songs, and then for whatever reason sometime down the road to no longer be part of said band. It's happened once or twice already. Yes i want other people to feel my music like i do. Yes i want them to add to it. Yes I want US to create something wonderful and TOGETHER travel the land and give it away to the masses. But i don't want MY songs to be wielded when i'm not there, being part of it. It isn't about the potential money that my songs may or may not be able to produce. My songs might be total crap in the grand scheme. I realise that in the whole world of music, my collection of songs amount to barely a drop in the ocean. But they're mine, and they are special to me. It is a matter of trust. It is a matter of knowing that someday I won't begin one of my songs and hear someone else say "hey man, you ripped that off from ". To this day, i don't know if i might just flip on the radio and hear some `new' Southern Oregon band eeking out some bastardized version of something i wrote in the early 90's. Or a band from Phoenix Arizona doing a sick cover of something i wrote in the 80s. I can also name a number of times where i've met some musicans that appear extremely talented and i'm awestruck in how diverse thier scope of styles are. We decide to collaborate on things, and agree to swap tapes/cds. I show up with a tape, he/she forgot the CD. I hand him/her the tape and he/she never produces a CD. I never hear from this person/these people again. It could mean that i totally suck and they don't want to work with me at all. But they heard *some* of my stuff and thought it was super-great, couldn't wait to get together and throw some chords around,all that rot. I've been down this road FAR too many times. I don't give out tapes anymore. I've got some stuff in a certain style that could potentially become its own genre. How do i know that if i share it with another group of musicians, they won't "beat me to it"? To be later considered "Another Me Too Bandwagoneer" of something i possibly started myself? But then, [b]HOW AM I GOING TO EVER MAKE SOMETHING OF MYSELF[/b] if i keep it all hidden from the world? Why must i obsess about things in this manner? Who am i to arrogantly assume my material is so great and that it must be `protected' from others who might nefariously duplicate it and call it thier own? To cast an accusing eye at those who i should instead befriend and develop a musical relationship with? I realise this is but a chance one must take. How many of you can or used to be able to relate? How did you overcome them? Are my feelings justified? Or am i placing too much value on my creativity? I also understand that it is hard for you folks to make any judgement upon my musicianship when you haven't heard a damn thing i've ever done. But whether my music is any good or not is not the discussion, it's about trust and sharing. Thoughts? Feelings? Flames?

[Lee Flier]

Dude, it's pretty simple: if you're that paranoid, register your songs with the copyright office. I think there's something deeper going on than being afraid you'll be ripped off. Probably more like, afraid to trust other people with your baby. That's understandable. It's tough to play an unfinished song or a song in its rough state to other musicians and asking them to "give it life." So I think you're right, it's a matter of trust, finding people you trust. So long as they are not taking credit for having written it (in which case you can sue them if you can prove you wrote the song), I should think you'd be fine with your former bands continuing to perform your songs. After all, it keeps them in the public, possibly turning a whole new audience on to them. I sometimes do songs written by friends of mine that my usual audience hasn't heard. It's all cool.

[phaeton]

Damn Lee! I thought you dissapeared! LTNC! Maybe it's also that i don't understand the whole copyrighting thing. Maybe you can copyright lyrics, but how do you copyright riffs and ideas? Some of these songs aren't particularly incomplete, either. I've probably got a whole studio album's worth (maybe even a little more than that) of full-blown turn-key cuts. I *could* do it all myself, but it would lack the depth and atmosphere that a whole band of gypsies could do. Otherwise, i've got TONS of incomplete stuff that's waiting for That Perfect Band to come along and fill in the blanks.

[eh steve]

smoke and a pancake? :D

[Lee Flier]

Hi Phaeton, no, I haven't disappeared, just haven't had much time to be on here lately. Legally, a song is copyrighted as soon as you write it. The only burden on you is that if someone were to steal your song you'd have to prove you were the author. Registering the song with the Copyright Office makes it easy and official. You can just send in a recording along with the completed copyright form and your registration fee. It can get expensive if you copyright every song, though lots of people copyright a whole album's worth of stuff as a single work. You can find out everything you need to know and download the application forms at http://www.copyright.gov . I wouldn't be too worried about sharing incomplete songs with a band. Once you finish the song you can copyright it - it's not very likely that a bandmate is going to steal your idea, finish the song before you do and release it! And even if they did, the chances are pretty good that the other musicians would testify against him in court. MOST musicians are not looking to steal songs. A certain amount of paranoia is good, you want to protect yourself. But the creative price of keeping your work to yourself and not collaborating with others is far greater than the relatively small risk that you might be ripped off. There's always risk involved with anything worthwhile, no?

[Dwarf]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]Probably more like, afraid to trust other people with your baby. That's understandable. [/b][/quote]Hey Lee, you ever hear what Richard Thompson said about letting outher people do your songs? He says it's kinda like letting your child sleep over at someone elses house. Usually they come back OK but sometimes they've learned some dirty words in the process. -- Rob

[Brakka]

[quote]Originally posted by phaeton: [b]...i don't know if i might just flip on the radio and hear some `new' Southern Oregon band eeking out some bastardized version of something i wrote in the early 90's.[/b][/quote]There are bands in southern Oregon? I'm sure there are freaks out there troll around for stuff to appropriate, but not most people. And not me. If I find out that I even accidentally subconsciously somehow stole a lick or chord changes, I completely trash whatever it was. I'll try to figure out what it is that I liked about it first, though. If you share music with musicians, you can't get opinions without at the same time sharing your ideas. If someone likes something you did, it may settle into their musical knowledge. Not an exact riff maybe, but whatever they liked about what you did. Like a phrasing or a voicing. Lyrics are another thing entirely, and I don't write lyrics so I can't help there. Copyright.

[Dan South]

Be sure to use Form PA (Performing Arts). You can also use From SR (Sound Recording) to copyright a SPECIFIC recorded performance of a song, but (a) that doesn't copyright the song itself, and (b) it's not really necessary. When you're ready to release your CD, file a Form SR for the whole thing, but don't do it for individual songs or demos. Riffs can NEVER be copyrighted. Can you imagine copyrighting a Chuck Berry guitar riff, a Jerry Lee Lewis piano riff, or a doo wop or country bass line? No one would ever be able to play those riffs on any other song. It would be a disaster. You song doesn't have to be ready for shrink wrap before you copyright it. If you have the chords, melody and most of the lyrics, esp. the hook, just write a quick lead sheet and send it in. If you change the lyrics drastically or change the title, you'll want to submit another form later indicating the changes (or another one altogether if the title changes). Realistically, though, the idea that someone is going to steal your song and make a fortune is a little bit paranoid. It takes a lot of work and promotion to make a hit out of any given song, even a really GOOD one, so you probably don't have anything to worry about.

[ECBRules]

I am a strong advocate of "who gives a hoot" I have a never ending source of material and can always make more. On the other hand think about being a drummer for a minute: You can play with bands, help write the songs, play all the gigs etc, but if things dont work out? You have nothing. absolutely nothing. All the promotion you did? out the window. All the songs? what are you gonna do play the songs in your new band? I don't think so. I have had three major bands and at least 50 other bands. After all is said and done? I don't have squat. Physically and legally. I started playing other instruments because I felt that way. I wrote about thirty songs, and now I know what it feels like to have something I made that is all mine. So I know my position in the scheme of things as a drummer. But I found that if you find people you trust it is not like that at all. My instrumental trio would not exist without me. I never get the feeling like I'm gonna quit, because there's really nobody I'd be happier playing with. It's really frustrating, because we are always looking for a bassist, but the sound of my band comes from the guitarist and I and for the first time ever, I can say that these are my songs. And I can say that because I am confident that even if I left town, the group and the songs would be mine and the guitarists, because neither of our personalities can be duplicated. Anybody can interpret the songs with their own voice, but I was there to make it and that's all that matters.

[the people of Earth]

The term "riffs" is a bit vague... a boogie piano lick doesn't qualify for copyright but the melodic head of a jazz tune would. Basically anything that can be [i]melodically[/i] identified can be copyrighted (chord progressions? nope; drumbeats/patterns? nope). Lyrically, anything except titles. We're with Lee; you just need to produce & promote your work. [i]Then[/i] put all that vigilance to use.

[Albert]

The thing is, sometimes people *will* rip off your musical ideas. I do not play my music for certain composers, because I know they will "appropriate" melodies or musical ideas for their own works. Copyrighting the music will not stop them, and unless the infringers are making *tons* of money off the copyrighted material it wouldn't be worth pursuing legal action anyway. Also, unless it is totally clean cut there can be some wiggle room where you know they took the idea but a note here or there was changed. The bottomline is that you have to work with people you trust. As far as collaborating with others, what you should do is establish in advance who will own what, how it will be shared. Perhaps on songs that are primarily your stuff you will own more, and likewise on songs that are mostly someone else they will own more. Having that worked out in advance will keep things on more of an even keel perhaps. Put it in writing, if even just a letter of agreement sort of thing. This is just my opinion, as I'm not an attorney or anything.

[DWBass]

1 word.........COPYRIGHT!!!!! :idea:

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by the people of Earth: [b] Basically anything that can be [i]melodically[/i] identified can be copyrighted (chord progressions? nope; drumbeats/patterns? nope). [/b][/quote]That's not correct. A songs is copyrighted as Words and Music. Words is self-explanatory, except that it has to be the full set of words. You can't copyright a single word ("rock") or phrase ("let's boogie!"). Music is defined, for the purpose of copyright, as a combination of melody and chord changes. Drum beats, fills, bass lines, solos (even though they're essentially a second melody), etc. cannot be copyrighted. But, yes, your chord changes will be copyrighted, not in and of themselves, but in association with your melody.

[MattC]

On the surface, copyright is the answer. I think that this issue goes a little deeper than that, though. The law isn't your concern then you are considering your music as art rather than a product. What makes it a difficult issue is the lack of distinction between what can be called inspiration and what is stealing an artist's work.

[Lee Flier]

KENY, glad to hear you're getting some respect as a drummer. What you say is really true, and a lot of drummers actually stop playing drums or don't play as much, in favor of songwriting or learning another instrument. This is one reason why a lot of creative and ambitious people don't become drummers or stop being drummers, even though they could be great drummers and/or really enjoy being drummers. This is sad. Our drummer doesn't strictly contribute to songwriting in the traditional sense, but he does in the sense that a lot of our songs wouldn't exist without him or sound the same. He inspires us to flesh out songs by being there playing during their development, and often contributes to the arrangements and "feel" of the song. Therefore, he will get writing credit for those songs and if we make songwriting royalties, he'd get his share. Strictly speaking we don't HAVE to do this, but why not? I'd rather err on the side of showing respect for the drummer and having him feel he has a real stake in things. Maybe if more people thought like that, we'd have more great drummers, and less drummers who become guitar players and songwriters out of frustration.

[Wewus432]

Of course it would be really cool if all guys were drummers, wouldn't it Lee? :D

[Master Zap]

[quote]I am a strong advocate of "who gives a hoot" I have a never ending source of material and can always make more.[/quote]That's my position too. My quality is NOT in my songs... MY quality is in MY ABILITY TO MAKE THEM. [quote]Music is defined, for the purpose of copyright, as a combination of melody and chord changes. Drum beats, fills, bass lines, solos (even though they're essentially a second melody), etc. cannot be copyrighted. But, yes, your chord changes will be copyrighted, not in and of themselves, but in association with your melody. [/quote]Unless this changed recently - this is wrong. From a copyright perspective (the COMPOSITION now, not the RECORDING) its words and top line melody - NOTHING else. Of course there is a SECOND copyright for the ACTUAL RECORDING. Nobody may copy that (or sample it). NOBODY can be stopped from duplicating your ENTIRE music bed, note by note, and making up a whole new top melody over it with new lyrics. Scary, but true, in music law. /Z

[Jotown]

[quote]Of course there is a SECOND copyright for the ACTUAL RECORDING. Nobody may copy that (or sample it). NOBODY can be stopped from duplicating your ENTIRE music bed, note by note, and making up a whole new top melody over it with new lyrics. Scary, but true, in music law. [/quote]You can fill out the SR copyright form at the very begining, that way you are copyrighting the words, music, and the arrangement. As long as the SR form is the first filed for that particular work, it covers everything in the sound recording of your song.

[Super 8]

Don't obsess too much about protecting your songs. It's understandable that you don't want to be screwed over by an opportunistic bandmate, but music was mean't to be shared. Consider the odds of your worst fears coming true verses the odds of having something really cool come from working on your tunes with other musicians. My gift thus far doesn't seem to be in writing songs or lyrics, but rather in developing other people's songs and lyrics. I can't seem to come up with too many ideas on my own. But I always seem to have a creative surge when I hear other peoples work. It might just be a very simple thing, but it often has a very positive affect on the song, and a number of song writers I've played with really liked it. It benefits them because it develops their songs in ways they wouldn't have considered. It benefits me by giving me an outlet for that side of my creativity. If you are too guarded about your music you won't have those kinds of opportunities. Of course, there are also those who (for better or worse) have their tunes set in stone and don't want anything added, changed, or interpreted differently from the way they originally conceived it. I always give the songwriter the right of veto on my suggestions. Sometimes I find myself understanding better why my ideas didn't work as I become more intimate with the song. But there are also those who just don't feel like sharing, and unless I really like their work it starts be less enjoyable for me. There are also songwriters who just want to take advantage of what other people can contribute in the development of their songs, and then want to dump them and go off claiming exclusive copyright. So there are leeches on both sides. In the end, just remember why you started doing music in the first place. Choose your musical friends well. Get to know them a little bit before you share your music. I think everything will workout alright.

[the people of Earth]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b]Music is defined, for the purpose of copyright, as a combination of melody and chord changes. Drum beats, fills, bass lines, solos (even though they're essentially a second melody), etc. cannot be copyrighted. But, yes, your chord changes will be copyrighted, not in and of themselves, but in association with your melody.[/b][/quote]The phrase "in & of themselves" is vital here. You could write a piece that was entirely chordal---no single notes---& that could be copyrighted because it would be viewed as a (top note) melody with accompaniment. Someone else could take those same chords, invert them, & [i]that could be a new composition[/i]. The [i]progression[/i] is, like the percussive accompaniment to a song, not the song.