High-end Alesis workstation synth at NAMM?

[Jake Johnson]

I'm not sure, but there seems to be an odd limitation for creating an instrument. (Or am I confused?):

 

The Specs page says it has a 40 gig hard drive, but strangely, on down the page, under the Sampler heading, it says you can only have 128 samples per multisample. You can certainly create a good piano (or several) with a lot fewer samples than that, but 128 samples, given the 40 gig hard drive, seems like a strange limitation.

 

Or are these separate things: you can only create 128 samples by actually sampling, but the same limitation doesn't apply if you load wave files directly onto the hard drive with a CDRW or flashdrive?

[clusterchord]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Originally posted by clusterchord:

dunno, i like the idea a lot. it has VA with lot of poly, ...

I didn't see any VA polyphony specs, only the sample playback (180).

 

Busch.

well neither have i. its just a guess, considering how much dsp power this thing obviously has - if you would run only VA parts, meaning dedicating the horsepower to VA plus some FX - i'm pretty sure you can get more than ION's eight, and i'm willing to bet it'll go way past twenty. maybe 24 or 32 ?!?

 

we'll find out day after tommorow..

 

but something else is really bugging me - can you really use IONs engine in a modular way - having your own mod matrix.

 

and second, if you have a part that uses FM or Sample-Playback, can you route those oscillators to VA filter, even if it means using extra dsp/poly, or you're limited to using standard sample-playback engine filters (lp/hp variety). i havent seen what filtering is available on FM engine..

 

who knows, maybe its all combinable and interchangeable - a six osc FM going into ION-style multimode filter would mean some serious synthesis power. a first actually.. i mean, you had FM go into a plain LP digital filter on FS1R already, but this is a whole different ball game..

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by clusterchord:

but something else is really bugging me - can you really use IONs engine in a modular way - having your own mod matrix.

 

and second, if you have a part that uses FM or Sample-Playback, can you route those oscillators to VA filter, even if it means using extra dsp/poly, or you're limited to using standard sample-playback engine filters (lp/hp variety). i havent seen what filtering is available on FM engine..

 

who knows, maybe its all combinable and interchangeable - a six osc FM going into ION-style multimode filter would mean some serious synthesis power. a first actually.. i mean, you had FM go into a plain LP digital filter on FS1R already, but this is a whole different ball game..

I don't see anything in the marketing info that would lead me to believe this is modular. In fact I'm wondering how much different it will be than the Yamaha Motif/S90 where you can add VA, FM and VL. True the Yamaha is not as tightly integrated, but you certainly CAN create patches that include different synthsis types. All the Alesis info states is that the different synthesis types are combined into a single workstation.

 

Basic flow diagram but it doesn't answer the question.

 

http://www.fusionsynth.com/images/gallery/Resize%20of%20Synthesis%20type%20screen.jpg

 

You're right. Time will tell.

 

Busch.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Jake Johnson:

I'm not sure, but there seems to be an odd limitation for creating an instrument. (Or am I confused?):

 

The Specs page says it has a 40 gig hard drive, but strangely, on down the page, under the Sampler heading, it says you can only have 128 samples per multisample. You can certainly create a good piano (or several) with a lot fewer samples than that, but 128 samples, given the 40 gig hard drive, seems like a strange limitation.

 

Or are these separate things: you can only create 128 samples by actually sampling, but the same limitation doesn't apply if you load wave files directly onto the hard drive with a CDRW or flashdrive?

128 samples means, in effect 128 samples per voice - strictly speaking "digital oscilator" since a program patch will no doubt be able to contain several of these (the QS8 allows 4, for example)

 

So you can sample every note of a piano and still have room to spare.

 

The thing I find odd given the size of the drive is that the max memory is not nearer a gig than the 192M I saw in the spec.

[Sergievsky]

The memory capacity was a disappointment, as well as the Holy Grail piano. But the package seems attractive enough for me to seriously consider picking it up. Will check it out when I fly there in April. Hopefully it'll be in the stores by then.

[Tusker]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Basic flow diagram but it doesn't answer the question.

...

You're right. Time will tell.

Busch, I agree, we cannot know right now, but for the sheer joy of speculation....

 

I notice some absences. No dedicated envelope for pitch at the oscillator stage. Or at least it's not mentioned.

 

The term "analog" for this architecture, suggests the kind of "chinese wall" that is in the S90. A term like "analog1" would have suggested a semi-modular synth. The term analog suggests a variable architecture synth. To me the difference is having 4-5 choices of architecture versus 20-30. Let's hope fm with a nice filter is one of them. I like that combination very much also.

 

It's probably still a very nice package even if it's not quite reaktor.

 

Jerry

[Carlito]

By Bush:

I don't see anything in the marketing info that would lead me to believe this is modular. In fact I'm wondering how much different it will be than the Yamaha Motif/S90 where you can add VA, FM and VL. True the Yamaha is not as tightly integrated, but you certainly CAN create patches that include different synthsis types. All the Alesis info states is that the different synthesis types are combined into a single workstation.

That was the impression I had when I first read the specs.I think "Price" will be the big factor.

[clusterchord]

yes, but on Yamaha you can't drive a FM structure thru an AN filter, or PH for that matter. and this is IONs 15 mode filter were talking here.

 

and then there's dynamic allocation of power. i like this approach instead of having to deal with cards, and options. one integrated machine.

 

not to forget that IONs VA code is miles ahead of AN's pretty old VA code.

 

that it won't compete with Yamaha on the ROMpler Piano and EP front - that is pretty obvious. (altough no one stops you to load any PNO/EP in flash RAM that you find usable).

 

otoh, what it might do is leave ES, X and Xtreme series in the dust in synthesis dept (with or without their respective hw expansions)

[Carlito]

Agreed, Clusterchord. All that you said, plus Alesis's attractive prices will make this a winner.

[bax]

cluster - you are right on the money... Everyone can do a good rompler (and they've been re-doing their good romplers for years now, ad nauseum). What we really could use is a board that can do "synthesis" in as many flavors as possible, mix & match, salt to taste. VAST was the closest thing I have found so far to that, and then you have either the Korg or Yamaha offerings with the add-in boards. Somehow though, those seemed still a little "segregated" in terms of having multiple forms of synthesis but they weren't fully integrated with each other.

 

With fusion (from what I am interpreting from the teaser documentation) it looks like there will be a unified framework with which you can mix and match oscillator types (sample, VA, FM, PM), many different and REALLY nice filter types, different algos for the voice structure, effects, etc. This starts to remind me of the VAST concept, but updated for today... I love my K2600, but if fusion delivers on what it is capable of then it is gonna be my new "most powerful" board and my Kurz might be a little jealous... The only thing I could wish for is maybe a few more physical controllers (sliders to go with the knobs, maybe a joystick or touchpad) but that would adversely affect price, so maybe this will come in at a very reasonable pricepoint. If they do, they will probably mop the floor with Korg for a while

 

Gotta hear it to be sure, but with the Ion being any indication, this is gonna be one sweet synth (let alone the workstation/HDR functions). Hopefully we'll be able to get some audio demos from NAMM...

 

Thanks!

bax

[burningbusch]

All I can find about combining synthesis types is this:

 

"The Mix Mode of the Fusion can have up to eight different instruments (each with a different synthesis type.) This lets you layer and mix different synthesis types to make incredible new sonic atmospheres. Imagine your custom samples, mixed with real world instruments, layered with FM percussive textures, modeled wind instruments and a thick stew of analog filters all in one workstation. The Fusion makes all this possible."

 

Again, it doesn't sound that much different from performance or combi mode - layering and mixing.

 

I'm curious about the "stew of analog filters." Do they really mean ANALOG FILTERS in that the audio is converted to analog, run through analog filters, and then converted back to digital all within the synth? The Waldorf did that, correct? Pretty rare. Do they really mean ANALOG or is this just sloppy marketing verbage?

 

Busch.

[Tusker]

Originally posted by clusterchord:

yes, but on Yamaha you can't drive a FM structure thru an AN filter, or PH for that matter. and this is IONs 15 mode filter were talking here.

Tom, I agree that the Ion filter is very desirable. However nowhere in the Fusion-synth marketing material do they state that we can use it on an FM patch. Allocatable DSP headroom does not imply a semi-modular architecture.

 

I think that if semi-modular picking and choosing was available rhey would have stated it, since it is a very desirable feature. Their discussion of different engines leads me to think that the engines are somewhat isolated, unless their marketing guys are under-selling. (Which may be the case.) I hope I'm wrong.

 

Originally posted by clusterchord:

otoh, what it might do is leave ES, X and Xtreme series in the dust in synthesis dept (with or without their respective hw expansions)

I agree with this. And there's more. The 8 analog in's and the 40 gig hardrive, makes me think of the keyboard player recording the gig on his synth, then producing the live cd off it.

 

Jerry

[Magpel]

Originally posted by burningbusch:

Again, it doesn't sound that much different from performance or combi mode - layering and mixing.

 

I think that's exactly right, Busch--the passage you qoute sounds very like a marketer making the ordinary sound extraordinary, and if Fusion offered a radical flexibility in combining synthesis types, I'm sure the marketese would be ripe with words like "modular."

[eric]

Any guesses on MSRP? If Alesis is looking to create a stir in the other current offerings, my guess is they will price it very competitively. I'll guess MSRP for the 8 will be about $3k and MSRP for the 6 will be about $2400, with a MAP of $2500 and $2000, respectively.

 

Do we think that this Alesis workstation could impact the current prices on the Big 3 workstations?

 

I think this looks like a cool keyboard. I wonder how long til it ships and if it will be roadworthy?

 

Regards,

Eric

[burningbusch]

At last year's NAMM, a single Micron was on displayed but not even plugged. I believe it was eight or nine months before it actually shipped. The Fusion is to be demoed at NAMM and hopefully there will be units that people can try out. If that's the case it should ship fairly soon.

 

Regarding pricing, I think Alesis has to keep this thing in the price range of the ES, Triton and Fantom X. In some ways it looks to superior and in others (ROMpler/sampler side of things, display) it does not. Alesis has a reputation as a value brand. I know the QS series sold very well, but I don't see that it had a direct impact on the pricing of the big three. For a value brand manufacturer to demand premium pricing it is going to have to be a very extraordinary product. This is like VWs current attempt to compete in the high-end luxury car market. It's tough to pull off.

 

The other thing about loading all kinds of features into a single box is that it's a rare person who will use all of them. So, for example, if hard disk recording is not important to me in a keyboard, I'm not willing to pay anything extra for it.

 

Busch.

[Synthguy]

Personally, I'll be happy if it offers 24 VA voices, 24 FM voices, and 8 PM voices, though I expect there will be a lot more of each with 180 total voices available. I won't mind if you can't use a modelled filter on the other sections. It would be nice, but it wouldn't make the FM part wimpier without it.

 

The pioneering, do it yourself part of me wants to avoid the latest high tech wonders in favor of a good VA or Andromeda, but this would be a fantastic all in wonder... and who knows what else will appear on the showroom floor tomorrow?

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Sergievsky:

The memory capacity was a disappointment, as well as the Holy Grail piano. .

What don't you like about the Holy Grail piano? I am not familiar with it.

[Analogaddict]

Originally posted by Byrdman:

Originally posted by Sergievsky:

The memory capacity was a disappointment, as well as the Holy Grail piano. .

What don't you like about the Holy Grail piano? I am not familiar with it.

Wasn´t the Holy Grail piano available as an EMU ROM card some time ago, mainly for the Proteus 2000? If that´s the one, my recollection is that it sounded nice, better than most piano samples, but that the Giga pianos blew it out of the water. I hope this is an updated version, or that the Fusion may let us stream samples from the hard drive at some point...

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Analogaddict:

Originally posted by Byrdman:

Originally posted by Sergievsky:

The memory capacity was a disappointment, as well as the Holy Grail piano. .

What don't you like about the Holy Grail piano? I am not familiar with it.

Wasn´t the Holy Grail piano available as an EMU ROM card some time ago, mainly for the Proteus 2000? If that´s the one, my recollection is that it sounded nice, better than most piano samples, but that the Giga pianos blew it out of the water. I hope this is an updated version, or that the Fusion may let us stream samples from the hard drive at some point...

Didn't see any mention of streaming but a ROM version in a synth is not a good indicator of the quality of the original. If the Fusion sample set is not larger I will be surprised. Be real nice too if they shipped a bigger one you could use with maxed out mem, loaded from disk, even if there is no streaming.

[RABid]

I think the Holy Grail piano came in 16 and 32 meg versions. At that time hardware samplers maxed out at 32 meg and larger samples had to be split across samplers. Emu used the 16 meg version. The Ensoniq ZR-76 came with the (Coakly?) Perfect Piano, also at 16 meg and that is available on the Emu Proteus line with the Sounds of the ZR expansion ROM. I preferred it to the stand alone Holy Grail piano ROM. Right now I like to layer it with the Roland piano samples in my Fantom when using hardware as my sound source for Piano.

 

Robert

[niacin]

Originally posted by Analogaddict:

Originally posted by Byrdman:

Originally posted by Sergievsky:

The memory capacity was a disappointment, as well as the Holy Grail piano. .

What don't you like about the Holy Grail piano? I am not familiar with it.

Wasn´t the Holy Grail piano available as an EMU ROM card some time ago, mainly for the Proteus 2000? If that´s the one, my recollection is that it sounded nice, better than most piano samples, but that the Giga pianos blew it out of the water. I hope this is an updated version, or that the Fusion may let us stream samples from the hard drive at some point...

The problem wasn't compressing it into 32 meg of ROM for the EMU P2K line, the problem was that the Holy Grail piano, however marvellously sampled, was not a Steinway, or a Fazioli,or (insert your favourite 9 foot piece of furniture here). They sampled a 6 foot baby grand. And I think it was a Young Chang, maybe a Kawai, sorry I can't recall but you can probably find it mentioned if you do a search in the P2K group at yahoo. So you have a sample, however good, of a second-string piano.

Peter

[TrancedelicBlues]

This thing does look awesome.

 

Now, maybe I'm in the minority here, but what I am most interested in is the sample playback library. Looks like it will only load aiff and proprietary formats, but if they come up with a huge library of their own, that won't matter a lot. Something like SampleTank 2XL has, what five or six gigabytes of samples? I wonder how many sounds they are shipping on the Fusion's hard drive? On the website right now there is reference made to thousands and thousands of sounds. Also, there's gonna be a CDR drive for it eventually

 

I really hope they release a big library for it. The potential is there.

 

Whatever updates lie down the road (tonewheel modeling, anyone?) will be just gravy.

[mildbill]

i don't get why the fusion and oasys have built in hard disc recorders.

the synth functions on both sound fine, and these would be great boards for someone starting from scratch who wants a do-it-all machine, but i certainly hope that somewhere down the line, both companies will release a 'synth only' type of board without all the bells and whistles and with a much lower price.

[Sergievsky]

Th hd recorder will come in handy for me for playing some additional backing tracks live. I mean, sequences are fine, but more and more I find myself needing to play audio because of a drum loop or a backup vocal phrase or effect that I can't get from sequencing, but most of all I need it for the shows where I need surround sound. And 8 tracks will allow me to play a surround mix plus a click track or two for the drummer etc.

 

Now I use a computer for that, but it would be nice if I didn't have to bring one, and even if I did having it in the keyboard will be great for a backup.

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by mildbill:

i don't get why the fusion and oasys have built in hard disc recorders.

the synth functions on both sound fine, and these would be great boards for someone starting from scratch who wants a do-it-all machine, but i certainly hope that somewhere down the line, both companies will release a 'synth only' type of board without all the bells and whistles and with a much lower price.

With the supposed price tag what it is, they'll probably release a scaled down version as they have in the past (Triton LE).

[MikeT156]

Sampler comes with 64MB RAM, can upgrade to 192MB. That sounds pretty low. The Yamaha Motif ES can handle up to a gigabyte of RAM, although they recommend only 512MB because it takes so long to load via USB 1.1. In any event, I would think that a new synth/workstation would have room for a lot more.

 

Mike T.

[Jake Johnson]

(I love Kawai studio pianos--lots of tone. Don't know their grands, though.)

[Byrdman]

They sampled a 6 foot baby grand. And I think it was a Young Chang, maybe a Kawai, sorry I can't recall but you can probably find it mentioned if you do a search in the P2K group at yahoo. So you have a sample, however good, of a second-string piano.

Peter[/QB]

 

Wow. Why would anyone do that - the cost of renting a studio for a few hours with a nice piano in it would surely be a small part of the cost of creating such a sample set.

[Synthguy]

Hey, it's not like Alesis isn't able to add to their sample library or anything. Cut them some slack for having a few brains in the company.

[northfork]

the Alesis ram is FLASH ram. Big difference.