Memorizing Songs (how do you make it?)

[Andre Lower]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

OK, well, then you are on the right track. Yes, what's left is memorization. Not sure your chords would have to be "customized" a lot, though. Maybe post some examples? Are you looking for a way to express them on your chart [chord names, or movement, like arpeggio or ...]? Can you give a specific example of what's hanging you up?

Well, there is only a couple of passages in which my mechanic ability is less than what I need to reproduce the right piano line (the sequence of 7 chords that match the No-No-No-No-No-No-No of the opera part and the famous left hand, octaved scale that you hear right at the end of the guitar solo, which brings the song back to the piano ballad style). I am working on these two "crackers", and will eventually master them.

 

As you see, I have no problem in getting the chords, voicings and frills right. My problem is I keep forgetting exactly which chord comes after the one I am playing. I am trying hard to associate the hand figures with the lyrics I am singing, but would love to have a better tool to hang on to.

[MIDIdiot]

Andre:

INTheDark mentioned understanding the chordal structure of the song. I suppose that means something like "this part is in a minor key, with an occasional 7th note in some chords, etc". Am I guessing right? If so, how would knowing that help on the memorization problem? If I am totally out of the cue, please clarify.

Actually, Andre, what I meant was chord progression, not necessarily the structure of any given chord. So I'm implying the same method as Dave, harmonic analyis.

eg The opening verse of BH, if I'm not mistaken, and I do not presently have a piano keyboard handy, I believe is I-VII-II-V-I, a very basic chord progression. Any musician should know what this means. If you know what that means, there is nothing to remember, other than the sequence itself which again, is a very common chord prgoression in pop music.

[Andre Lower]

Originally posted by InTheDark:

Andre:

INTheDark mentioned understanding the chordal structure of the song. I suppose that means something like "this part is in a minor key, with an occasional 7th note in some chords, etc". Am I guessing right? If so, how would knowing that help on the memorization problem? If I am totally out of the cue, please clarify.

Actually, Andre, what I meant was chord progression, not necessarily the structure of any given chord. So I'm implying the same method as Dave, harmonic analyis.

eg The opening verse of BH, if I'm not mistaken, and I do not presently have a piano keyboard handy, I believe is I-VII-II-V-I, a very basic chord progression. Any musician should know what this means. If you know what that means, there is nothing to remember, other than the sequence itself which again, is a very common chord prgoression in pop music.

Fine. Could you try to convey the meaning of I-VII-II-V-I? I suppose that means 1st, 7th, 2nd, 5th and 1st chords of a given scale. Assuming this supposition is right and that someday I am able to associate these numbers with specific hand figures (that is, to remember with precision and quickness what is the hand figure for the 6th chord of a given scale), your method of memorizing is reduced to memorizing the exact sequence of these numbers and then relying on your ability to convert them into the hand figures fast enough to cope with the song's tempo?

 

Well believe it or not, if we are understanding each other, this is the first time in my life the idea of musical notation is making any practical sense given my purposes. Please let me hear some more about it.

[MikeT156]

Andre:

 

Have you had a chance to compare the info you posted on the link for the song to the record? There's a lot of information there as to how the song is put together with notes on each section, time signatures, chord changes in different parts, etc.

 

I have to say, trying to get this song done is going to be difficult. Its not exactly easy. I'd say you really want a challenge.

 

Mike T.

[MIDIdiot]

Andre: Could you try to convey the meaning of I-VII-II-V-I? I suppose that means 1st, 7th, 2nd, 5th and 1st chords of a given scale

Sorry again, my mistake, replace VII with VI, it's 1-6-2-5-1, might be missing a chord before the 2 actually now that I think about it. I'll have to try tonite at home. Yes, you have to learn rudimentary chords to understand how to play them. Once you learn them in all keys, there's nothing to it. It's not a question of learning the hand positions of a given chord while you're performing the tune but rather a question of learning the chords before learning the song. Once you know them, it becomes automatic.

[Michelle ggurl]

... and yes, those roman numerals are referring to chords built on different degrees of a given scale.

[Andre Lower]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

... and yes, those roman numerals are referring to chords built on different degrees of a given scale.

I am aware that the scale and the fact that the key is minor or major would define the first two letters (i.e. Cm, G, etc.). What about the rest of the chord (Cm9, D7, etc.)? How do I get to know and register these "other details"? I am assuming the simple V-VII-II... thing can cope with the first two letters, right?

[Michelle ggurl]

Andre, I don't know if this is what you're asking .... to be simple, if root of a chord is C:

 

1 = C

2 = D

3 = E

4 = F

5 = G

6 = A

7 = B

8(same as 1) = C

9(same as 2) = D

10(3) = E

11(4) = F etc...

 

This is assuming major scale/chord. Minor chords have flatted 3rd. For the rest of this discussion, know that "triad" is a chord of 1,3,5 tones: eg, C major = C, E, G.

 

There is an interrelationship between whether a chord/triad is major, minor, or diminished and the degree of the SCALE the chord's root starts on, and music theory deals with this. This is where it gets too sticky for me to explain in simplistic terms without going into other precursory detail. Besides, over the course of 2 years I slaved over a book talking about this very same thing, sweating over the method to get it usable and succinct and test-marketing it with my partner, and I just can't relive that process again in this thread.

 

But seriously, the "other" numbers after the chord are called "extensions" and these are 7, 9, 11, 13. If a triad has a 7, it has the 7th degree up from the root in the chord (in C, that'd be B). A 9th is the same note as 2, as you can see from the scale and numbers above (a D in C). You can flat or sharp these extensions and indicate that in your chord name: eg, C7 #11 (C, E, G, Bb, F# ... players will tend to drop the 5th, or G for chords with lots of extensions, and just play the extensions. YOu need the 3rd in there, though).

 

Do you know the difference between a C7 and a CMaj7? C7 is a major triad with flat 7 (C, E, G, Bb). CMaj7 is a major triad with natural 7 (C, E, G, B natural). Again, whether an extension is flat, sharp, or natural often depends the degree of the SCALE the chord's root starts on and what kind of scale is being used. Yep, more theory.

 

You may already know this stuff anyway, but this is where reading really comes in handy for keyboard players. Guitarists get away with looking at tablature with different finger positions shown for each type of chord and then they just transpose it all over the neck. I am sure this is why I know many more non-reading guitarists than keyboardists. There are chord syllabuses (syllabi?) that can help you make sense of this stuff. I does require reading notation, what can I say ... but you don't have to even know how to read timing to use them, just how to read what letter names correspond to which spaces and lines on the treble clef.

 

Anyway, note that what I said above applies to "diatonic" harmony (based on a single key signature/scale), not "modal" harmony, which is a different approach to improvising and composing. Diatonic is good for now.

 

Does this help??? I hope I didn't confuse matters more ...

[Andre Lower]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

...Does this help??? I hope I didn't confuse matters more ...[/QB]

Geekgurl, you helped a lot. Thanks for taking the time to explain the basics. It is not the first time I hear about them, only they were never related to my purposes before.

 

Another question: After this couple of years it took you to master the theory part, how long did you take to associate the "coding" of the chords with actual hand positions? And supposing you can do this association, is your "translating reaction" fast enough to cope with the song's pace?

[Michelle ggurl]

Well, I'm glad I helped. But you misunderstood me on one point: it didn't take me 2 years to master theory; it took me 2 years to write a book on it!

 

In terms of mastering theory, I am a permanent student of music. Not in strictly a book sense, as I'm not as "teacher-y" as many (that's why I co-wrote the book with a real music teacher). BUT, I always find ways of relating theoretical concepts to what I'm learning.

 

Since I started playing jazz piano at 16 and studied it in university for a couple years (before changing my major), I can only say that I was immersed in learning about theory (as well as performance) for about 4 years. After that it was less intensive, just what I did on my own. As I said, I'm still discovering new things.

 

In terms of hand positions, I don't really remember how long it took ... again, depending on types of voicings I'm trying to use, I'm still learning. For example, a couple years ago I got more involved in salsa-style piano, montunos and such. I have a vocabulary of those things now, but I'm still a student (even tho I haven't had a formal lesson in years), not a master. Dig?

 

All I know is, the only way to get familiar with hand positions is to practice them ... not just by themselves, but in the context of pieces you are trying to play.

[Andre Lower]

Originally posted by geekgurl:

Well, I'm glad I helped....

All I know is, the only way to get familiar with hand positions is to practice them ... not just by themselves, but in the context of pieces you are trying to play.

OK. Thanks again!

[Steve in KS]

Hi Andre.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am not exactly a fluent reader of notated music and like you, are primarily involved in music that isnt written down anywhere anyway so I have learned to primarily depend on my ear. I understand enough of music theory to be able to identify the names of a chord (C7 for example) but have never been immersed in it enough to actually have it as part of my conscious playing. But Ive been playing long enough that some of these same understandings are kind of intuitive. If youve been playing for a while I would guess that a lot of your playing comes from the same place.

Getting back to your original question, the parts I have difficulty memorizing fall into two different categories. Things which are mechanically difficult for me to pull off consistently (a lot of Keith Emersons playing for example) and parts that are stylistically wildly different from anything Ive ever tried to play before.

Considering the two parts you cited from Queens B.R. that are a bitch for you to memorize, Im guessing that theyre quite different from what youre used to playing. Although I hate to take you back to square one, learning to play it slowly and repeatedly until it eventually comes more easily is unavoidable. The good news is that the longer you play, the easier this process becomes.

This thread has been a bit eye-opening for me as I had never been enlightened to the prospect of memorization made easier through an engrained understanding of music theory. Since Im not a writer, Ive only considered it as a way to communicate with other players. I guess I need to go back to school. Regardless of how you go about it, music is often hard work. Luckily the personal pay-off is worth it!

[Byrdman]

One more thing if learning a piece you have notated.

 

Don't have the music in front of you.

 

A good idea is to put it on a music stand behind you so you cannot possibly look while playing.

 

This is particularly good if, like me, you can "learn" a piece note perfect UNTIL they take the music away. In other words you don't need to look at the music until its not there. It also make you memorize at least a couple of bars at a time.

[raymb1234]

I have several thousand standards and jazz tunes memorized and there are thousands more that I don't know. My Music Pad Pro has a few thousand of the ones I don't know yet. It only takes seconds to bring them up on the Pad. It's a great tool to have. Later, Ray

[uffesa]

Whats wrong with a "cheat sheet"(not sure what that is really).

Remember classical pianist Svjatoslav Richter played concerts with the music right in front of him. His idea was that many people spend to much time trying to memorize.

I think everyone may choose his own way.

Jazz players also many times reads chord changes on the gigs due to lack of rehearsal opportunities and due to the fact that you have to adapt fast to different cicumstances(singers,unusual keys etc).

 

Uffe S.